@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

if you play them as the boucner is suppsoed to be played?

That's not what you're doing though. You're trying to stifle the discussion with your definitions and beliefs of some hypothetical perfection, which isn't even the point for either aspect of this discussion.

In your terms: "How Hero is supposed to be played" and "How Bouncer is supposed to be played" have equal performance, but "How Bouncer is supposed to be played" requires a lot more effort, that's still an imbalance. No video of a Bouncer player successfully staying on top of more demanding weapon and ability management will show a loss in performance relative to your perfection ideal. But does that make it right that they have to work more for the same output?

(Edit: And with reference to your comparison of Bouncer on depth 33 and Force on depth 30, I'd hope everyone could agree which of those two looks laid-back and which one looks positively hyperactive. Naturally this is just a comparison of one player per class once again, but these are videos you linked.)

In more relevant terms, as noted earlier in this topic, some players on JP are abandoning "how Bouncer is supposed to be played" in favour of sticking to one weapon type and replacing the loss of 50% of their boost abilities with focusing on the time saved not switching weapons and stances and mechanics abuse to get more out of the reduced abilities they do use. To remind: Bouncer is not Fighter or Force where the skill tree encourages specialisation of one or perhaps two weapons or elements. Between switch strike and boosts that work exactly 50% of the time per weapon it is "supposed" to rotate the weapons. Players consciously moving away from that indicate an issue.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

you try to disprove what i am saying by telling me "your proof is not legit"

I have not said this, and your misuse of quotation marks is seriously not appreciated. Kindly stop.

I have consistently stated that your efforts to stifle discussion with an elaborate form of "git gud" is neither useful nor welcome. This has nothing to do wtih legitimacy or proof, two words I don't even believe I've used until this post.

Returning to the point of hypothetical perfection, we need to view skill ceilings and floors to explain why your approach to this discussion is not useful. Here is a totally hypothetical chart to visualise the relative performances of two different classes:

By your singular definition of "how the class is supposed to be played", no rebalancing is necessary because everyone should always be playing at 100% peak performance without exception and the two classes are equal at that one precise point. The skill ceiling of both classes is - in this example - 80 arbitrary performance points.

By any other comparison, one class consistently performs better than the other one at every part of the player skill range, with one exception where it is still equal. This indicates that there is a difference in the complexity when it comes to playing the classes, such that an average player (or even a great player on an off day) would perform better with the former class, and it would take a player in the top third of the skill range of the worse class to reach 60 arbitrary performance points and exceed the skill floor of the better class to outperform the absolute worst player at that class.

Obviously this is a massive oversimplification and there are several other factors involved. Maybe a player has better equipment with one class than another class, or maybe they have better equipment than another player with the same class. Maybe they're broadly good but don't happen to have learned a game-changing trick. Maybe different players just happen to be more naturally suited to certain play styles than others (amusingly referenced by Zeno speaking of his photon aptitude skewing Ranger in Episode 1).

The point I'm getting at here is it does not aid the discussion to not only limit the entire comparison to one singular point (in your case the 100%) but to also try to demand everyone else in the topic obeys your order to do the same.

To me, the kind of difference shown in the chart would be an imbalance that the class use variety and the game as a whole would benefit from seeing addressed, even if it's not an imbalance that matters to you.

@Miraglyth i am sorry to stop you in your stuff but:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I'm sorry as far as i know the damage of the Force class right now in NA is kinda three time higher than the Bouncer class.Regarding the Techer i can agree, and would be nice that Sega gives to that class a serious buff too. As i suggest to the other player that has gave is feedback, trust me, test the Bouncer class right now and compare the damage with all other class then tell me what u think about.

more clearly:

test the Bouncer class right now and compare the damage with all other class then tell me what u think about.

thats exactly what i have done - he asked for it - i gave a reply to it i explained what exactly has been tested and that you CANNOT test it on a 20 second practice mode bear to get good results

again - HE ASKED FOR IT - i have done exactly that and recieved salt "but i know how to play bouncer trust me" meanwhile he claims that force is doing 3 times the damage than bouncer...sorry but not sorry i cannot take such a person serious when hes asking for "serious buffs" according to such replies

you just got in the middle of me discussing with what the guy has been asking for...you think i am doing this for fun or cause i am bored? my first intention was to help him with his class and realise that he can do better if he claims that his damage is 1/3 of that damage a force does - its not me saying "get good" its me saying "get real and your facts right" hes stating himself that he is doing bad on bouncer if he says he does 1/3 the dmg of a force

I think the point thats being missed now is that PSO2 when it comes to how well you perform largely comes down to numbers. there IS a optimal way to play each class, skill tree, skill rotations, gear and so on. situations do obviously play a role as well but when it comes down to the actual damage numbers its MOSTLY down to other things mentioned.

Also, every game has a class with a high skill cap. this is not a new thing, and its not going anywhere soon. some classes are INTENDED to be harder to play. every game has em. Sorc in BDO, Hitscans and genji in overwatch just off the top of my head. Bouncer is just another one of those classes/characters. having to work harder to get the same performance of other classes is something that is present in a LOT of games.

I'm not trying to be mean but if you arent able to make the cut with those classes thats OKAY. nobody is going to think less of you.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth i am sorry to stop you in your stuff but:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I'm sorry as far as i know the damage of the Force class right now in NA is kinda three time higher than the Bouncer class.Regarding the Techer i can agree, and would be nice that Sega gives to that class a serious buff too. As i suggest to the other player that has gave is feedback, trust me, test the Bouncer class right now and compare the damage with all other class then tell me what u think about.

more clearly:

test the Bouncer class right now and compare the damage with all other class then tell me what u think about.

thats exactly what i have done - he asked for it - i gave a reply to it i explained what exactly has been tested and that you CANNOT test it on a 20 second practice mode bear to get good results

again - HE ASKED FOR IT - i have done exactly that and recieved salt "but i know how to play bouncer trust me" meanwhile he claims that force is doing 3 times the damage than bouncer...sorry but not sorry i cannot take such a person serious when hes asking for "serious buffs" according to such replies

you just got in the middle of me discussing with what the guy has been asking for...you think i am doing this for fun or cause i am bored? my first intention was to help him with his class and realise that he can do better if he claims that his damage is 1/3 of that damage a force does - its not me saying "get good" its me saying "get real and your facts right" hes stating himself that he is doing bad on bouncer if he says he does 1/3 the dmg of a force

As someone that read the entire post what you did is trying to prove that Bo dosn'r need a buff. And that's based on feedback you got from a friend that's OP on Bo.

And let me say it, your point makes no sense. You don't play Bo, you don't understand the class mechanics behind it.

The fact that your friend makes it look easy proves only that he is a good player. And yeah good player go further and will always do better.

But indeed Bo needs tweaks, both to it's DPS capability and to the tedious and absurd management the class gotta do.

OP point was that the class requires some kind of tweak of some form, either a % base buff or some QoL changes to make it easier and more fun to play.

Plating Bo most of the time, compared to other more inflactionated classes, feels like playing a different game. In general Bo have a far worse game experience compared to people around them.

Seapping Sub-Palette is not fun. Have to swap rings to keep your damage constistent is not fun and definetely holdin down a button while spamming WA (at least on SB) is not fun.

If the class PA where all right and the PA damage was fine, people would use them in the class rotation but, no, Bo/Ph rotation literally consist of Holdin down a tech, and cancel it with the WA, during Photon Blade fever. When the fever ends sqap to Serpen Prenzer, yes, Serpen Prenzer, 'cause those are the only JB offering solid DPS on Bo, match mob element and Spam down Jetsweep Kick, always by cancellin the tech cast.

If you know of any other class that requires to go trough all of that in orser to keep a decent DPS, you are welcomed to post it here.

For me, the fact that SEGA plans tweaks to Bo, all rdy shows there are some problems with it.

I'm consistently getting 50k damage per basic hit with my build, using jet boots and I'm only using the millionaire set. Granted, I went for a balance build, and I'm using the boots to keep me alive long enough to provide support for the teams I join in urgents. Did you build your Mag improperly? As for rings, has anyone here heard of ring slotting? Those are quality of life improvements. My highest hit damage connected at over 999999, and broke the damage meter whilst hitting nothing but perfect attacks, and while fighting the photoners urgent. Granted, I only pulled that off once, and my techter friend was buffing me, point is your build matters here. You have to pay close attention to what you spec into, both main and sub classes. Then there is the affixing on your gear. If you aren't building, or buying the right sub units, of course you won't be dealing high damage. You also have to check set bonuses. There are plenty of factors that go into every class build, not just bouncer. Not to mention, this is a team based game, and building the right teams will also play into how everyone can buff each other, and debuff enemies. This game doesn't hand hold you, and If you want a decent build, ask around. There is a chat function in game for a reason. Perhaps ask a friend if they seem to have better luck with their class then you do, as they might have an insight you lack.

@Anarchy-Marine One of the Bouncer in the Japanese side of Episode 6 is that outside of having the Cras Jet Boots (which are simply powerful because of raw power) the only alternative you have is Serpen Plenzer/Serpent Prenzer. These Jet Boots turn the Bouncer/Phantom into a one-trick-pony where Jetsweep Kick is your sole and strongest attack which is great for dealing damage but pushes everything else out of the way. It is not hard to hit 999,999 damage which I don't think was the point - but nothing else the Bouncer does will hit this hard this quickly or is this viable to use and spam.

I'm not denying that it's fun to hit large numbers or to use this kick but I would absolutely love a revisit to the Jet Boots photon arts to make them all more viable outside of Jetsweep Kick and I would also love to see a revisit to the Soaring Blades to make their photon arts just as viable as the weapon action in terms of raw damage (Bouncer/Luster makes the Weapon Action an absolute joke in terms of dealing damage, sustaining Voltage, and effectively never having a cooldown on Photon Blade Fever).

There are things like subpalette swapping (and having to toggle the active skill buffs/stances) as you swap weapons which at this point to me is more of an inconvenience that not many other classes (besides the Fighter, Techer, and Braver) have to deal with that I really feel could be made easier so you don't have to setup macros or dig through the subpalette menu to find the elements/stances/active skills you want due to the limited space.

At least on a functional level, the Bouncer is playable and isn't in a place like the Fighter where the Fighter lacks a great deal of utility compared to other classes but they are closer to the Techer who has a lot of "micromanagement" you have to be aware of and to dig through mid-battle in order to stay optimal and functional whereas in comparison classes like the Hunter and Ranger need absolutely none of it, the Force encourages having multiple weapon palettes (or subpalettes) for different elements, and the Successor classes in comparison (especially moreso with the Etoile and Luster) have barely any management with active skills and subpalette management needed at all and yet have a more versatile and full kit. So far seeing how classes are refreshed and renewed in New Genesis it seems like things are definitely heading in a nice-and-tidy direction that I hope gets backported at some point - if it is already not in consideration for the base game.

Somehow I didn't receive any notifications about this topic until the last post, so this is a bit of a belated reply:

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

you just got in the middle of me discussing with what the guy has been asking for

Your first post in this topic followed on from a post of mine and falsely asserted that "everybody is completely focused on damage" despite the OP mentioning the difficulty to play (if admittedly as a secondary concern, though they have since edited the OP) and the conversation I'd just had with HarmlessSyan which was certainly not just about damage.

Your second post in direct response to me calling that out pulled a u-turn and changed the "everyone" part to just "the initial topic", and the very next reply from the topic's creator clarified they would also be happy if we didn't have to put in extra effort for the same (or worse) output. So that discussion should have been nipped in the bud immediately instead of leading to four more pages of what is honestly entirely your focus on damage.

@fabioffxi said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

In general Bo have a far worse game experience compared to people around them.

If you know of any other class that requires to go trough all of that in orser to keep a decent DPS, you are welcomed to post it here.

Spot on, and fully agreed.

@fabioffxi said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

For me, the fact that SEGA plans tweaks to Bo, all rdy shows there are some problems with it.

Wait, do they have further plans beyond the PBF extension? That'd be hugely reassuring! Where'd you hear this from?

I play only force unless I need my monthly class cubes. I really like the fact we do x3 more dps than bouncer. Can you tell me how to do this? I want to do lots of damage please.

Why do people compare the older classes to scions? Sega wants you to play them and only them.

The best thing to do is let classes sit where they are in terms of where they sit at the end of the epic story and try again when NGS comes out.

@Anarchy-Marine the point is not that. As i stated Bo/Ph can have consistent damage and it does.

The way i built it is a simple and plain hyperoffensive build, minimum points into JB, all of the remaining into SB.

I do agree the damage can be high. The fact that you are limited to Spamming JetSweep Kick and Tech Cancel into WA for SB is not so great. And that's my point.

Bo would benefit from a buff to it's PA damage, having to rely only on Jetsweep Kick and Kestrel Rampage Type-0 as our only PA option is not great.

The class is flawed in a way that reuires Bo player to micromanage and do A LOT more then other classes to get this damage output.

I don't deny i did hit big numbers in the current Endgame with Bo/Ph and that the damage output is high enough at least in my opinion.

But spamming one PA on JB, and WA on SB is not somenthing i'll call "entertaining" gameplay.

The sole fact that i gotta play it this way, and this way only, to be competitive interms of Damage and clear times is well.... underwhelming.

@Miraglyth seems they plan other adjustment based on Player feedback. Lot of complains on the JP servers for the Fi buff compared to the Bo one.

People are asking the same treatment for Bo PA's. SEGA promised it will be adressed in future patch, prolly after they handle Su....

@fabioffxi said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth seems they plan other adjustment based on Player feedback. Lot of complains on the JP servers for the Fi buff compared to the Bo one.

People are asking the same treatment for Bo PA's. SEGA promised it will be adressed in future patch, prolly after they handle Su....

Hah! That being my secondary class, I'm okay with that. Then again the JP Summoner fix might be the general availability of eggs and sweets we got in Episode 6. It's funny, Summoners on JP and Global have different issues, here we lack several core sweets that are critical to good performance which are (or were) in very easy supply on JP.

Anyway, Bouncer! It's pretty funny that the severity of the Fighter buff last month compared to the Bouncer one has met a similar response from both JP and Global players. We really are catching up to JP... it's moments like this that help me realise that. I'm really not used to that as a Phantasy Star veteran lol.

Still, I don't think it's a PA buff Bouncer needs but a reworking to reduce what thanks to the Episode 6 pace increase has become a somewhat silly amount of upkeep. And perhaps since it feels like everyone and their dog can now get an unconditional 100% critical hit rate without Critical Field in the MPA while Bouncers' crit rate skills are still all conditional (on skill use, dodging, elemental weakness or the existence of breakable parts - the latter two of which some enemies cannot be affected by) perhaps that could be reworked to bring our crit rates up to speed as well.