@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

• One Bouncer doing badly Player bad
• Another Bouncer doing well Bouncer good

This is a self-contradicting position.

this applies to any class

This is not a point about classes' relative skill ceilings and floors, but a point about the self-defeating conclusions you have drawn here.

i dont see how bouncer is "bad" compared to all others when ppl i run with who are using bouncer are doing well?

Maybe it's you that sucks? I don't like making that suggestion, but you opened the door to it by rushing to assume that of someone who sees higher output on other classes exactly the same the way you do of Bouncers. I hope you understand the parallel I'm highlighting here.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

i mean bouncer is out for how many years?

So if they added a class that could attack once a second for 10,000 damage and another class that could attack once a second for 100,000 damage with identical range and hit rate, and then simply waited and arbitrary amount of time, those classes would magically become balanced simply by the virtue of the passage of time?

As extreme as the example is, the point I'm making here is this is another non-argument. Legacy imbalances can persist. Humans and newmans were definitively and objectively terrible for years in Universe while nothing was done to even try to address it, outlasting the western PC/PS2 server, and not really until subsequent games.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

i dont see the need for a "new class" in pso2 as bouncer would feel like a "new class" after a rework

So allowing soaring blades' weapon actions to trigger dodge auto-field and giving Rapid Boost and Photon Blades Fever autocast methods counts as an entirely new class now... not sure many would agree there.

@Miraglyth looks like you missed the other stuff i wrote on purpose - OP was asking for a rework of the class and i still am talking about the things op demanded - also what does it have to do with "a bouncer doing slightly worse on masq depth than a million heroes who upload their videos on youtube" with "me being bad" ? i never said i play hero - nor did i ever say i play phantom - how about you do depth 300+ and share your average time of 50 battles vs masq? or did you dodge that point on purpose because you know you cant find any argument against it? did you even bother to test your class vs masq depths and compare your results with other classes or other bouncer? did op ever bother to do this other than "him testing bouncer vs practice mode bear" cause thats still the only "reliable source" he mentioned where "another class does better" while 99% of the pso2 community can agree that practice mode doesn show if your class is worse than other classes in terms of damage...also watching bouncer gameplay over and over he makes it look pretty easy not the "twice the effort you have to do than other classes" (but i do agree that his passive/active buffs are a little weird compared to scion classes or most other ones and are less rewarding compared to a flat % passive buff wich doesn require you to do anything in fight...but since you can freely choose a subclass it doesn look as bad as it looks on paper) - but still if pressing 2 buff buttons more than others is now "twice the effort but low reward" than i must be playing a different game for sure...rifle phantom for example feels alot harder in my view for "getting most dps out of it" than bouncer does...but i guess thats a personal view where everyone could have different opinions

but i love to wait for your masq depth 300+ results on bouncer so we can compare those to other classes and see how bad a bouncer is vs bosses compared to others...but of course youll say stuff like "oh that doesn count" xDDDD and also i wanna see if your bouncer does well enough for easy 3-2-1 runs in armada where its more about being effective vs masses of enemies not just a single boss - wich shows me that bouncer are capable of clearing any content of the game with ease...or are you future crafting now and saying that bouncer will get worse than other classes in the near future? cause right now hes definitely not as bad as some randoms here make the class look like

and last but not least i love repeating myself (directed at op not against the qol changes some ppl suggested) if you feel you underperform with bouncer - if you feel that class just isnt for you so you demand a "rework" of that class to change it completely...why not play one of the other classes wich are "easier to play" and wont need "as much effort" if you hate the bouncer right now? why ruin the fun for people who enjoy playing that class? most important thing is not "the damage" but if the class is fun to you...if you hate playing it theres no reason to rework the class for you until "it fits"

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth looks like you missed the other stuff i wrote on purpose - OP was asking for a rework of the class and i still am talking about the things op demanded - also what does it have to do with "a bouncer doing slightly worse on masq depth than a million heroes who upload their videos on youtube" with "me being bad" ? i never said i play hero - nor did i ever say i play phantom - how about you do depth 300+ and share your average time of 50 battles vs masq? or did you dodge that point on purpose because you know you cant find any argument against it? did you even bother to test your class vs masq depths and compare your results with other classes or other bouncer? did op ever bother to do this other than "him testing bouncer vs practice mode bear" cause thats still the only "reliable source" he mentioned where "another class does better" while 99% of the pso2 community can agree that practice mode doesn show if your class is worse than other classes in terms of damage...also watching bouncer gameplay over and over he makes it look pretty easy not the "twice the effort you have to do than other classes" (but i do agree that his passive/active buffs are a little weird compared to scion classes or most other ones and are less rewarding compared to a flat % passive buff wich doesn require you to do anything in fight...but since you can freely choose a subclass it doesn look as bad as it looks on paper) - but still if pressing 2 buff buttons more than others is now "twice the effort but low reward" than i must be playing a different game for sure...rifle phantom for example feels alot harder in my view for "getting most dps out of it" than bouncer does...but i guess thats a personal view where everyone could have different opinions

but i love to wait for your masq depth 300+ results on bouncer so we can compare those to other classes and see how bad a bouncer is vs bosses compared to others...but of course youll say stuff like "oh that doesn count" xDDDD and also i wanna see if your bouncer does well enough for easy 3-2-1 runs in armada where its more about being effective vs masses of enemies not just a single boss - wich shows me that bouncer are capable of clearing any content of the game with ease...or are you future crafting now and saying that bouncer will get worse than other classes in the near future? cause right now hes definitely not as bad as some randoms here make the class look like

and last but not least i love repeating myself (directed at op not against the qol changes some ppl suggested) if you feel you underperform with bouncer - if you feel that class just isnt for you so you demand a "rework" of that class to change it completely...why not play one of the other classes wich are "easier to play" and wont need "as much effort" if you hate the bouncer right now? why ruin the fun for people who enjoy playing that class? most important thing is not "the damage" but if the class is fun to you...if you hate playing it theres no reason to rework the class for you until "it fits"

Ok you already stated your disappointment about this thread, so, just a question: why are you still arguing? Feels like you are here just for get some salt, if you know what i mean and again this kind of approach is against this section rules of the forum.

Thats from the basic rule of this section:

*"Hello all,

I just want to let everyone know of the true intention behind this section being created. This is for Suggestions by players of what they would like to see in the game, and these are opinions that they are entitled to. They are not debate points, and the purpose of this section is not to debate someone's opinion. Please do not put down the suggestions of others, even if you don't think it can be done for this game, as Sega does make other games where they could be implemented.

Valid responses to player suggestions would include agreements with the players sentiments (so we can see numbers) and additional justification if they have it. Those who disagree can respond, however only by sharing why they disagree. Please do not tell others things are "not possible," or that they are "wasting Sega's time."

Generally, "I think" or "I feel" comments are valid. Judgement of others and their opinions is not."*

So, since you are disappointed and, you had expressed your concern about why you dont agree, i dont know why this has to go on and on.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

but i love to wait for your masq depth 300+ results

If you're going to continue to refuse to acknowledge the basic point that any one person is not indicative of the overall spectrum of capabilities of the class they happen to be playing, I am not willing to engage with bad faith discussion. Sorry. And please don't forum-chat message me with the same irrelevance again.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

i dont know why this has to go on and on.

Agreed. "Your suggestion shouldn't happen because I know this one person..." is not constructive. I am however happy to continue discussing the clutter of Bouncer ability management and the possibilities for condensing the agency of those abilities in a way that is both feasible to implement with the reduced PSO2 support and helps bring its ease of use into line with other classes whose demographic preference probably comes in part due to that ease.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

i dont know why this has to go on and on.

Agreed. "Your suggestion shouldn't happen because I know this one person..." is not constructive. I am however happy to continue discussing the clutter of Bouncer ability management and the possibilities for condensing the agency of those abilities in a way that is both feasible to implement with the reduced PSO2 support and helps bring its ease of use into line with other classes whose demographic preference probably comes in part due to that ease.

Nothing against that, i just dont like the other guy attitude here,as i said seems like is here more to get salt from people because even if of different opinion once it is stated it's ok.Just keep pressing the matter and saying that a suggestion can ruin the Bouncer experience of other player and supposing that the other are bad at playing is not good and not costructive of course.Also i dont like get my quote out of context, in my country we call this "Hiding behind a finger" (I dont know if it used in other countrys) and that was what he keep doing.

@Miraglyth its not constructive? to show what bouncer are capable of if you play them as the boucner is suppsoed to be played? as OP said the only thing i am getting here is more and more salt - all i am doing is delivering proof to my opinion: "boucner does not need a straight % dps icnrease as OP is demanding nor a complete rework because there are tons of evidence that bouncer is not as bad as op is trying to let people think" i do not argue his "suggestions" i argue his fake news

you try to disprove what i am saying by telling me "your proof is not legit" - man i just checked youtube for a dozen of bouncer doing depth - all having good times same as the other classes i was watching...how you wanna disprove that? or you wanna tell me "hey a dozen people dont count you need at least 10000 people" ok good...then show me the 10000 people wich prove that bouncer needs a rework?

again you are just dodging like a politician - if you wont deliver proof of "bouncer being bad" and disprove the stuff i showed (also via pn) and you can watch a ton of youtube videos of "people who know how to play their class" wich all show that theres not much of a gap between classes - and bouncer is pretty good for mobbing too i dont see how hes "bad compared to other classes" in that regard

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth its not constructive? to show what bouncer are capable of if you play them as the boucner is suppsoed to be played? as OP said the only thing i am getting here is more and more salt - all i am doing is delivering proof to my opinion: "boucner does not need a straight % dps icnrease as OP is demanding nor a complete rework because there are tons of evidence that bouncer is not as bad as op is trying to let people think" i do not argue his "suggestions" i argue his fake news

you try to disprove what i am saying by telling me "your proof is not legit" - man i just checked youtube for a dozen of bouncer doing depth - all having good times same as the other classes i was watching...how you wanna disprove that? or you wanna tell me "hey a dozen people dont count you need at least 10000 people" ok good...then show me the 10000 people wich prove that bouncer needs a rework?

*Thats from the basic rule of this section:

*"Hello all,

I just want to let everyone know of the true intention behind this section being created. This is for Suggestions by players of what they would like to see in the game, and these are opinions that they are entitled to. They are not debate points, and the purpose of this section is not to debate someone's opinion. Please do not put down the suggestions of others, even if you don't think it can be done for this game, as Sega does make other games where they could be implemented.

Valid responses to player suggestions would include agreements with the players sentiments (so we can see numbers) and additional justification if they have it. Those who disagree can respond, however only by sharing why they disagree. Please do not tell others things are "not possible," or that they are "wasting Sega's time."

Generally, "I think" or "I feel" comments are valid. Judgement of others and their opinions is not."*

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Those who disagree can respond, however only by sharing why they disagree.

told you a billion times why i disagree - and why i feel that reworking a bouncer or giving it "serious buffs" is unneeded in MY opinion and the opinion of boucner mains i am talking to

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I hope to recive feedback from other BO main class for this issue.

in addition to this you were asking for feedback wich i delivered to you and got salt in return while being friendly and offering you a talk with main bouncer who could help you

@JuggernautGTX

Yes and you keep arguing against that as you can see in the rule post i shared my suggestion.You can agree and express what do you think but keep pressing againt opinion of other people wont go anyway.

If my suggestion is so horrible as you think Sega will do nothing about the Bouncer.

Being salty and trying to get salt from other people is not what this section of the forum is meant to be, wanna disagree ok, wanna say why? it's ok too but stop with this salty attitude.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I hope to recive feedback from other BO main class for this issue.

in addition to this you were asking for feedback wich i delivered to you and got salt in return while being friendly and offering you a talk with main bouncer who could help you

I Asked about an opinion on the matter of this Post but not about how to play my class that was the thing you was pressing on again by classify me as a bad player, so thanks but, no thanks!

@NonnoN

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Those who disagree can respond, however only by sharing why they disagree.

I Asked about an opinion on the matter of this Post but not about how to play my class that was the thing you was pressing on again by classify me as a bad player, so thanks but, no thanks!

yes and you recieved feedback of another bouncer main that he doesn think that boucner needs a buff because the class is still ok if you adapt to its unique playstyle...why being salty to me?

and i totally disagree with the fake news you have delivered (that bouncer is bad in damage) and explained why i disagree with reworking bouncer class

dont ask for feedback if you dislike or cannot take any negative feedback please...not everyone has to agree

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Those who disagree can respond, however only by sharing why they disagree.

I Asked about an opinion on the matter of this Post but not about how to play my class that was the thing you was pressing on again by classify me as a bad player, so thanks but, no thanks!

yes and you recieved feedback of another bouncer main that he doesn think that boucner needs a buff because the class is still ok if you adapt to its unique playstyle...why being salty to me?

I recived a feedback from You, and you still pressing on and, just to be clear, i'm not salty, i think i'm way too nicer i even tried to keep the tone of this arguing down by showing the rule of this section of the forum but seems like it dosnt work.

and i totally disagree with the fake news you have delivered (that bouncer is bad in damage) and explained why i disagree with reworking bouncer class

dont ask for feedback if you dislike or cannot take any negative feedback please...not everyone has to agree

Attacking players and trying again to press as hard as possible against them is not showing an opinion but trying to impose himself so is ok if you dont agree but stop being salty, is not constructive.

@NonnoN and i followed the rules perfectly fine by telling you that i disagree and also why i disagree - and also gave you the feedback you asked for in your original post...if you want to discuss things further we can do that via PN

Attacking players and trying again to press as hard as possible against them is not showing an opinion but trying to impose himself so is ok if you dont agree but stop being salty, is not constructive.

telling you that "bouncer does no damage" is fake news (as the feedback you asked for) is not attacking you - telling you that you could share your knowledge with another bouncer is not attacking you either...you are the person who keeps telling me "you are salty" xD you know there is a possiblity that youre overreacting because you cant do much damage on a bear - wich is why i told you that the practice mode doesn show what a class is made of - "having fun" is most important but youre stressing yourself with the fact that youre not doing "enough damage" with bouncer in your opinion...wich is why guides and help from youtuber exist

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I'm sorry as far as i know the damage of the Force class right now in NA is kinda three time higher than the Bouncer class.

here the perfect example of spreading fake news - the best force on earth cant kill masq on the same depth 3 times faster than a mediocre bouncer - the kill speed difference is about 35% higher on average based on multiple results of multiple players - not 200%

sources:

masq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_x3s0tQFy0 (bouncer clear time on depth 33 - 3:11 with jet boots lv 91) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAmTUa4rZhU (force cleartime 2:10 on depth 30 lv 95)

can be reasearched for alot of different players with similar results - i personally do 2 minute clears on average on low depth with summoner using 5 different pets during the whole fight - requested phantoms doing low depth clears with an average of about 1:40-2:00 wich comes close to the youtube footage of other players...theres also a video of a jp bouncer clearing depth 100 in 3 minutes (lv 90 era) wich shows at least to me that no force on earth can kill a depth 100 masq in 1 minute (theres a video of somebody clearing it in 2 minutes and he does really really well for a lv 90 era) so overall i would never come to the conclusion that a force does 3 times the damage of a bouncer hence why bouncer "does not deal any significant damage" is wrong...also there are months old video of the jp players where bouncer clears depth 999 in 4 minutes (lv 95) while a ton of videos of phantoms/etoile exist wich clear it in 5 minutes kindaish...i bet these bouncer would like to have a talk with you about "bouncer doing no damage" or "doing 3 times less damage than force"

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN and i followed the rules perfectly fine by telling you that i disagree and also why i disagree - and also gave you the feedback you asked for in your original post...if you want to discuss things further we can do that via PN

I dont have to convince you that i'm right so i dont need to arguing more about, is obvious we dont share the same vision.

Again, if Sega will decide that what i suggest is not right will not do anything about.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Again, if Sega will decide that what i suggest is not right will not do anything about.

yes i am crossing fingers that SEGA will follow your suggestion and rework the bouncer + giving it a huge damage boost wishing you the best and hopefully you still have fun in game even if SEGA decides not to

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Again, if Sega will decide that what i suggest is not right will not do anything about.

yes i am crossing fingers that SEGA will follow your suggestion and rework the bouncer + giving it a huge damage boost wishing you the best and hopefully you still have fun in game

Thats what i mean, still salty.

Thanks anyway, dont worry i will be well.