Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff

A lot of the issues I have with this game involve controller support simply not letting me map things the way I would want them and that my controller doesn't have enough buttons to do what I want it to do in the context of this game.

I always have brought up games like Warframe or Dragon's Dogma Online when it comes to how classes play in this game because I feel there is no doubt that the Successor classes (including the Luster who has one extra photon art that won't fit on to your main palette and cannot be put onto a subpalette) are designed very well to be played on a controller assuming all basic functionality. The only real exceptions to this are the Hero and the Phantom who both have access to techniques and therefore you might as well have your subpalette loaded up with them to use them on-demand.

I have never been able to play the game well on console without wishing I had more input options from when I played on the PlayStation Vita (on Phantasy Star Nova your subpalette was accessed by using the touchscreen whereas Phantasy Star Online 2 has absolutely none of that) and on the PlayStation 4 you were forced to stick to the default controls or what the Dualshock 4 had as buttons. On the Xbox One version you can at least use a keyboard and mouse and map your keyboard completely if you really wanted to though it was relatively impractical unless you had shortcuts around that. I have used DS4Windows to push extra inputs from my controller and have since used reWASD (and now Steam Input because it's more flexible even if it is not perfect) because I intentionally unmapped my L1 button so that it can be used to access my subpalette in the same way we access the Back Palette. Similarly I have also added functionality for other button inputs (L1/R1 + L3 activates my Photon Blast, L1/R1 + R3 activates whatever I have mapped for either a Complex Photon Art/Compound Technique/Special Class Finisher ability) and have extended the use of the Dualshock 4's touchpad to allow me to use things like Chat Shortcuts for easy access to subpalette swapping, weapon swapping, and even fashion swapping.

There is a lot of customization you can do with the controls but the main issue I have is that it is not "flexible" enough for what I want to do so that as a spellcaster (Techer, Force, Bouncer, Summoner, Hero, or Phantom) I can access both my normal attacks and subpalettes without messing with the D-Pad to scroll left/right or up/down to find what I'm looking for. Ever since Sega had updated subpalettes to include Photon Arts as well this has extended my gameplay as melee/ranged classes as this meant I can now use multiple attacks as a Twin Daggers fighter without having to scroll weapons (which has an inherent delay that you must jump-cancel out of to update due to the weapons not appearing or changing until you wait about a second or two from my experiences with eight-step dashing) and it allowed me to be more versatile as a Gunner who can fight using more options than just Another S-Roll Arts with everything else in my main palette being used exclusively for Chain Trigger breaking.

When it comes into context for classes like the Bouncer (and the Braver by extension) I never enjoyed that their "big damage boost" skills were always on a cooldown and that when the cooldown was over you were doing less than "normal" damage because the game assumes you will either swap to the other weapon and utilize that or that you are worse than you normally are until you can get the cooldown back. This is mitigated by playing as the Luster with a subclass because you can make cooldowns non-existent if you are capable of keeping up your voltage but this does not change the notion to me that you have to "normally" scroll through your subpalette, activate the skill you want, and then resume gameplay. The Successor classes like the Hero and Phantom still struggle with this if you are intending on having sets of subpalettes with different techniques and skills laid out and the only real solution I want is the ability to have a mappable menu (think like Warframe's Gear Wheel or Ability Menu) so you can access features like Stance Toggles, "Super Abilities" for classes, or things like Photon Blasts/Dark Blasts without having to dance left/right around a menu. Dragon's Dogma Online solves this entirely by removing L2/R2 as usable buttons for the gameplay unless you are in a special context (if you enter an aiming mode of any sort then L2/R2 can be used as the "shoot" button) as L2 opens up a hotkey menu that highlights four of the twelve options you have which you can easily scroll through using L1/R2 which makes the F1-F12 hotkeys on a normal MMO easily accessible. Similarly holding R2 opens up another menu that allows you to use the face buttons or the D-Pad to input one of eight shortcut commands and you have multiple pages (about ten pages) worth of these you can set up for things like chat shortcuts, pawn commands, and emotes. Pressing L2 and then R2 expands the map for viewing purposes as well which is highly convenient when needed. The amount of customization in that game's hotkeys allows players to have extremely quick and easy access to the menus they are most invested in (for me in this case my equipment/items/friend/fast travel menus were all together and then I had my items loaded up together with niche items also grouped together).

In the context of Phantasy Star Online 2, however, I feel the Bouncer definitely has it better than other classes. I would have loved for something along the lines of a "gear wheel" selection for the Ranger so they can select the ammo they want to use or the traps they want to use because the Dark Blast menu already handles this and I see no reason why at all the Ranger could not use something similar for their traps instead of having to load up each one and its ammo into their subpalette. This would also assume that any trap and bullet would be viable as in my experience I have only ever used the Gravity Bomb and Weak Bullet/Blight Rounds because everything costs skill points when I really feel that they should not at least compared to other classes.

I have had ideas for a Bouncer redesign that I would absolutely love to see but it would end up radicalizing a lot of the gameplay Bouncers are used to. Specifically I would love to utilize more of the "Variant Arts" concept and expand on them by turning Jet Boots photon arts into potential two-or-three input combos or to utilize Hero/Luster mechanics so that a player can use Strike Gust, drop kick it into the ground, and then soar right back into the air (by holding the weapon action or by pressing it again, I'm not fully committed to what I would prefer more) with the Soaring Blades by it being linked to Immortal Dove. Similarly for the Soaring Blades in this case due to the lack of a Variant Art the ability to hold photon arts would switch back to the Jet Boots with a related attack (though I am not much of Soaring Blades player so I am not fully familiar with their rotations beyond the Tech-Cancel Flying Trick). The main obstacle with this particular mechanic I see is that the Hero "already" does this with their Link Arts and the Luster utilizes this for their Enhance Arts but I see no problem with backporting these when both the Phantom and Etoile utilize some aspect of these Variant Arts (Phantom's Shifta Arts and the Wand-Etoile's Focus Arts). The other obstacle which is more of a technical one is that like the Hero, the weapon switching is heavily latency-dependent where if you are a player with a poor connection you have the same delays you would with manually switching weapons where you must jump-cancel to force your weapons to change quickly. The easiest solution around this is a hacky solution where you completely avoid the transition altogether and simply just swap weapons using the Numpad (or in my case the button combinations I created for myself) and either attack right away or jump.

If we are talking about things like damage numbers and the gearing the Bouncers do, I really feel like the Jet Boots side of the Bouncer can use some touch-ups to push Serpen Plenzer (Serpent Prenzer in global) levels of power and utility into being more of a "natural" thing for the Bouncer. The Bow-Braver was infamously hit with this years ago when one of their bows (Divine Raikou) had its potential changed because it became the "only" bow to use due to its reduction to Rapid Shoot's cooldown and as a result the Braver was changed to have that cooldown naturally and so players can use other bows. The Bouncer, at least to me, has not yet really seen this outside of their very big gameplay changes for Episode 5 (being given infinite jumps when every class could double jump and being given much more mobility) because you still have weapons like Jupiter Tullus and Serpen Plenzer effectively dominating your choices. Due to Jupiter Tullus being power-creeped by future weapons, you still definitely do want its potential (in the form of an S5) on future weapons and Serpen Plenzer brings in such a huge change to the Jet Boots gameplay (specifically for Bouncer/Phantom) that I really do wish that instead of it being locked to a weapon despite how much I like it the gampelay for the Bouncer would have kept up to play like the Successor classes do in terms of ease-of-play. I would personally have loved if the stances were simply passive and not needed to be active instead (so no need to juggle Elemental Stance or Break Stance) and to make the Field Skills activate upon "grazing" attacks using the weapon action or the brief invulnerability period during attacks. The Hunter gets to activate their Guard Stance damage buffs by doing something very similar and it baffles me why the Bouncer cannot for something very similar.

I guess I have to be the one to say it. outside of NGS I HIGHLY doubt any classes are going to get any kind of rework. in the case of bounce, bouncer has always been one of the "GG Get gud" classes and frankly if you cant handle it maybe you just arent cut out for it. pretty soon you wont be shoehorned into weapon swapping anymore.

this is an 8 year old game, expecting reworks on an 8 year old game is a pipe dream at best, completely delusional at worst.

@N00bie666 said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I HIGHLY doubt any classes are going to get any kind of rework

Fighter, ร‰toile and Bouncer itself just got little tweaks on JP that we will likely receive soon. I do agree that a fundamental condensation of Bouncer's ability management might be a little much to ask for, but allowing weapon action iframes to trigger Dodge Auto-Field for instance would be a small but effective change you know?

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Ok let's start from the main topic: Yes i would like to have an increment on my dps for the class i'm playing and, that can derive from passives, actives or other method that in a way or another ( Example: Shortening a cooldown, Simplify other things)

alliance mate of mine plays bouncer since the beginning....and hunter subclass...when we done risk explorations to fight lumin...he always been in the top 3 of the dps board and mostly top 1 - above phantom or hero - i also heard of "legendary" fighter class player from japan (never been ship 2 as i played ship 6) who control their class amazingly good wich is why they are more affective/better than other players

when i got several 15* drops i asked in alliance about one pair of 15* boots...and got the reply "they are the best boots for bouncer right now you literally just use one tech the enemy is weak to and then do the big kick" - i know there is more to it and i just suck at bouncer because i didn play the class all that much....but bouncer must be somewhat good...if you have some questions about bouncer or if you wanna watch him play the class i can ask him for you....what im saying is "you feel like your class sucks" but actually it does not - you will feel like that for many other classes who are actually good if played very well

so if youre recieving your "serious bouncer buff" because you feel like the class does nothing for you....then those players will recieve those "serious buffs" as well and going out of the roof with their class...theres no point unbalancing classes because a fraction of players doesn wanna adapt to the classes playstyle...if its just some qol changes youre asking for ok - but "serious buffs" sounds a lil too much when i see a bouncer performing better than a years long pso2 vet who mains phantom

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@JuggernautGTX

I feel like u havent read well what i have wrote but nevermind, thanks for giving your tought and opinion about this topic. ๐Ÿ˜€

Bit of a silly argument, I'm always first as DPS on Techter in public games, doesn't mean it's the strongest thing ever.

Bouncer has a lot of issues but it's not really in its damage, but rather how it plays. The stances are godawful for example and the Jetsweep reliance is honestly pretty bad design overall, since it's the only real tool of Bouncer that can seriously keep up with the higher DPS options in the game (that being said, Jetsweep rotations are literally top-tier in DPS providing you can do them).

As a longtime player i disagree. The way Bo plays is flawed. Spamming Weapon Action while holding down a tech to charge is not fun gameplay.

Besides saying that Bo does more damage then Ph or Hr is just BS. Same with Fi. it really comes down to situation and content. in many situations Bo performs better then some Scion Class in others, simply does not.

still is undeniable that at parity of gear equipment and affixes, any scion class would laugh at Bo. Those got a better toolset, better multipliers and overall more fluid and dynamic gameplay.

As proved by the recent updates to the class on JP server, the class is undeniably in need of a revision and a buff.

SEGA knows this, who denies it or days Bo is just fine is clearly playing another game.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

if could be possible recive a rework of the Bouncer class or a serious buff that will fix the Damage problem that this class have.

we got nothing when we talk about damage %.

I know as well that was intended to be a more supporting class than a real dps machine

Is it possible to recive a serious Bouncer Buff?

I hope to recive feedback from other BO main class for this issue.

all that you have said is about "its lack of damage" but that "you enjoy playing the class cause its fun"

idk what could be understand wrong? you asked for feedback from other BO mains...i asked one who does really good on bouncer and he sees no issue with the damage a bouncer does...idk why you even think that bouncer is a support class??

pso2 works this way: -you know how to play your class = you deal tons of damage -you dont know how to play your class = your damage is mediocre/bad/feels not enough

if you say you dont like the playstyle of bouncer then play another class thats more fun to play? why rework a whole class because you dislike it? makes no sense to me...i trust the people i play with...if they tell me bouncer is fine in terms of damage then i believe them...as i said he has his own youtube/twitch channel and has his own website too....if you want i can arrange a chat with him and you can ask him for advise if you really want to increase your damage

@JuggernautGTX Bo is not fine. it got a lot of issue in the way it's gameplay is designed. Holding down a button to charge a tech, while cancel the action with the Weapon Action is not a fun gameplay.

besides, Bo lacks multipliers on it's tree on par with those of Other classes, in particular Scion.

Bo lacks a good stance 'cause both Elemental and Break are flawed and not so great and got weird conditionals and restriction that other classes simply don't have.

you are right about the skill part and is true that a good player does more damage. But as proved by SEGA addessing Bo in the last patch on JP servers, the class got problems. If that would not be the case, they wouldn't even address it in the first place. Besides, your argument is just stupid. Damage is situational in this game, there is a lot of variables and it dosn't solely depend on player skill.

beside if you are not a Bo main, don't join conversation that require knowledge of the class and how it plays.

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

if could be possible recive a rework of the Bouncer class or a serious buff that will fix the Damage problem that this class have.

we got nothing when we talk about damage %.

I know as well that was intended to be a more supporting class than a real dps machine

Is it possible to recive a serious Bouncer Buff?

I hope to recive feedback from other BO main class for this issue.

all that you have said is about "its lack of damage" but that "you enjoy playing the class cause its fun"

idk what could be understand wrong? you asked for feedback from other BO mains...i asked one who does really good on bouncer and he sees no issue with the damage a bouncer does...idk why you even think that bouncer is a support class??

The Bouncer skill tree contains more supportive kind of abilities like fields that are meant to be buffs for the surrounding allies.The level 85 skill give u the ability to activate thos fields when u dodge an attack.Yes this buff can even be for you but was designed for a more supporting role, same can be said for the weapon action move on the jet boots that cast shifta, deband and zanverse.If it was intended to be a more self damage improvement instead of area buffs Sega would have gave a stance or a toggle buff for the self improvement.Also instead of having any other self damage improvement you got the two stances that are situational: In case of Break stance it will apply to destructible parts, and Elemental stance as the name suggest it will apply if you have a weapon that match the elemental weakness of the target.For be short there are no generic self buff or passive that a real dps class have.It was meant as Hybrid class and obviously dosnt do well one thing or another.

pso2 works this way: -you know how to play your class = you deal tons of damage -you dont know how to play your class = your damage is mediocre/bad/feels not enough

As i said earlier i'm not pretending to be TOP DPS or TOP PLAYER but after more than 1500 hour as bouncer on NA plus like the same on JP i think i know how to play my class.The difference i got from JP was just that i played till end episode 4 because on the JP server the delay between episode updates was longer, one episode could last even a year or more so when i played on the JP i got a different experince of this class and thats why i expressed my suggestion here about the fact that in episode 6 in my opinion Bouncer need a Buff.And yes a buff means even if you adjust some minor or major problem such as swapping, cooldown and other issues it will increase your damage % over time because i was mistaken it easy to understand it.

if you say you dont like the playstyle of bouncer then play another class thats more fun to play? why rework a whole class because you dislike it? makes no sense to me...i trust the people i play with...if they tell me bouncer is fine in terms of damage then i believe them...as i said he has his own youtube/twitch channel and has his own website too....if you want i can arrange a chat with him and you can ask him for advise if you really want to increase your damage

I ask for a rework because it can be fun play this class (as it was for me personally till end of episode4/5 ) but there are issues that force you to look for other Class like the Scion one because for sure they have a more easy approch and gave you better performance. That dosnt mean that all classes need to get this treatment, i hope ALL the old class can get a buff so instead of having the majority of player leave their classes for Scions they can just stick to play their favorite classes.

For closing this tiring arguing,just what do YOU suggest? If the answer is just "Git Gud" maybe you have choose the wrong topic.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

For closing this tiring arguing,just what do YOU suggest? If the answer is just "Git Gud" maybe you have choose the wrong topic.

i have offered you a couple times to talk to the mate i have who knows how to play bouncer well...wich might probably increase your damage....you can play the class 100000 hours but also 100000 hours unefficient...thats why guides about classes exist - to help people understand the class they are playing....you could have a bouncer killing a boss in 5 minutes solo and another bouncer with the same equip killing it in 10 minutes solo - the 10 minutes solo guy then watches a video of a phantom player who kills the same boss in 5 minutes too and thinks "oh my class sucks i need a serious buff"

since youre asking for a "serious buff" means youre one of the people who think their class is bad in terms of damage (and you mentioned it several times).... its not a shame to ask for advise if somebody is "doing better" at playing a specific class...

the main reason why you play bouncer is for its "unique gameplay" like for any other class...people arent playing etoile because its "so much better in terms of damage" they play etoile because its fun and fits their playstyle...so people who like bouncer just play bouncer because its fun for them not because of the "damage" as main reason...idk what else to say honestly

@JuggernautGTX

Since u have NO real suggestion i think there is nothing more to say about. I explained all but seems like your opinion about this matter is just the one i explained at the end of my post so, it will give not a real suggestion to this thread.

@JuggernautGTX The "serious buff" I have been seeing echoed in this thread is not "please give me bigger numbers." The Bouncer/Phantom as a class can easily hit 999,999 damage but in order to do so you have to play a specific way (quick-charge a Technique, and then Vinto Gigue the enemy repeatedly). This one particular playstyle is what gives the Bouncer/Phantom such a big boost in damage and edge in burst damage but that means leaving out all your other photon arts (which can't compare or come even close to damage once you get Jet Boots like Serpen Plenzer). If you really liked that kick (which I do) it's very fun but it's also extremely limiting. You can compare this with the Phantom who is the closest class to utilizing doubled-photon art utilization due to their Shift mechanic (which works similarly to the Jet Boots-Bouncer's Variant Arts). Of course, the Phantom can't dish out such big numbers so quickly and on paper they aren't as powerful. But what you get instead if a much wider experience of you as a player being able to decide what you want to do, when you want to, and being rewarded either way (dodging to store a counter-attack that fires alongside your next attack, swapping weapons because you want a change of pace but still access to the same mechanics, and a variety of things you can do that all are viable for the situation). With the Jet Boots you're stuck with Gran Wave/Grand Wave as your "primary" damaging option with Strike Gust and Grand Wave being your obligatory Shifta/Deband casting options where Moment Gale/Surging Gale is used primarily for Zanverse or quick mobbing (which is less effective once you get Serpen Plenzer as you can just Vinto Gigue-kick the entire mob faster and more efficiently). This leaves the Bouncer having Vinto Gigue as their strongest attack and the one you want to use the most because neglecting it is detrimental to your damage output.

I have not touched Soaring Blades because I personally do not enjoy their style and as a result the most I have used them was for Photon Blade Fever-shooting shenanigans which is done by holding a technique on the subpalette and then spamming the weapon action. You shoot so much blades this way and it can be fun to fly around and not be vulnerable but I believe it is very telling that no other class plays like this or "needs" to do this in order to sustain their damage. The Etoile with the Soaring Blades is completely self-sufficient at just fighting and having a safety net of its own (perfect-blocking that does not interrupt your actions) because all of its photon arts have a use and a function whereas the Soaring Blades on the Bouncer tends to be lacking because it either plants you in place or leaves you wide-open to enemy attacks (to which the Jet Boots has much more evasive options but not much in the way of offensive options).

The Bouncer was definitely designed as a class where your actions come at the "cost" of functionality or convenience where everything is a sacrifice where you could have done better. This is why the Bouncer/Phantom combo is so popular because it minimizes the risks and things you lose in general but it still doesn't fully save the class from being a one-trick pony that players who can repeat and play very well can utilize to their advantage. When you face classes like the Hero, Phantom, Etoile, and the Luster, the Bouncer's one-trick pony gameplay easily pales in comparison even if you get the perfect situations for the most damage. The same applies to the Fighter who is amazing at bosses. I doubt you will be saying the same when playing as a Knuckles-Fighter or Twin Daggers-Fighter when you are in a situation where you must handle groups of enemies to which the Fighter has always been weak at. When the new classes are so well-rounded and versatile it definitely shines an ugly light on how old classes "used" to be or are still are such as how the Techer and Bouncer in particular (or if you put the two together) have some of the worst subpalette management mini-games to deal with.

@VanillaLucia OP has been mainly about damage and explaining that he "cant do 4m dps" - wich is funny cause i dont know of any class doing 4m dps...not even 2 people at the same time could do 4m dps - he didn even bother to edit his original post wich is mainly read: "i need bigger numbers - dont tell me im bad"

pso2 is all about being efficient if you want to deal the most damage...every class has its perfect rotations for each boss as soon as you memorize its attack patterns or know when and where to hit its weakspots along with dodging/countering/parrying ... you have to play "perfect" with each class and are bound to that if you wanna be "great" - if youre playing for fun (wich i hope most people do) you play the way you want - but also you cant expect to be "top notch" in terms of "viable dps" ...its way too hard to "balance a class so its most efficient in anything the class does" - most people just wanna spam million storm and think they are owning....should they buff million storm now so it deals 10 times the damage? ... nope they want you to play "brilliant" and the way "the class works at its best" in order to be doing good

look at me...i do my 8m dmg on bear (i guess thats what op ment with doing "4m dps") by just spamming jingas PAs over and over...not much effort there....but if i wanna do more than that and suddenly switch to synchro i have to press more than 1 button to do good amounts of dmg - so should they buff jingas dmg now so i can keep my 1 button playstyle for the lazy ppl - or should they keep it so i have to play the "more annoying" but also more "rewarding" playstyle of a bombing melon when i can/switching synchro - comboing till my PP are off - switching rappy for pp gains - switching melon bomb when i can - comboing synchro - etc etc....but most importantly is that everything changes in actual combat vs real enemies and not just a little bear....he gets his "bad numbers" from hitting a bear and thinks his class is bad now cause hes doing less in practice mode....so ya my offer to him...i know of a good experienced bouncer with who i ran risk explorations and seen on top of leaderboards (for whatever reason...you could say everyone else is super bad maybe thats the reason but i would never insult my own teammates like that so i just assume hes doing a good job) if he doesn want to learn and rather spend the rest of his life asking for a bouncer buff (while we all play NG) then so be it

@JuggernautGTX As usually you dont want to read well the thing other sare saying so, why are you still here i dont know, you even quote me before and i even answered you and your only argument is "I have a freind Bouncer that u can talk to because if you dont do damage the problem is you not the class" that for summarize what u have said till now.

If you want to just disagree just say that for you Bouncer dont require a Buff but, still arguing on the way we are right now it is just against the rule of this section of the forum.

I dont think i can be nicer that that, so, again thanks for your opinion (?). ๐Ÿ˜€