@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Your video is just clearly showing the delay from multiple palette switches that should be avoided

I am avoiding it!!

I don't mean to sound rude but is that three or four times I've said this now? I am using a chat shortcut. /mpal1 /spal1. This delay shown in the video has a workaround. That workaround is in use. This is not the problem.

The real question is how can we avoid needing to switch weapon, toggle Break Stance and activate the next boost as separate inputs every minute in the middle of increasingly lethal danger and with less Auto-Mate Half and Iron Will than we had before because Bouncer needs Phantom subclass just to try to keep up?

This question has not been answered. It's becoming apparent there is no answer, beyond waiting for more endgame content and abandoning one weapon type altogether.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I'm not saying it doesn't take more time or effort but rather it is well within reasonable bounds and manageable.

You also said it "was why I dropped Bo for Scions". Honestly that speaks for itself.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I have showed you example video of mother+deus fight with plenty of weapon swapping [snip] they don't always swap immediately but rather time the swaps when boss is getting staggered

Exactly. Bosses that get stunned a lot are terrible examples for displaying the problem. These are Episode 4 boss fights created before the escalating pace and danger that was added in Episodes 5 and 6. They are both one slow boss that spends half the fight in a stunned phase. I just rewatched the first couple minutes of both fights and... yeah, leisurely switching during downtime isn't really useful for the discussion here.

Try doing the same in the Xmas UQ when multiple UH Blizzard Banshees or Gorshraiders are repeatedly charging through you. If you start the weapon change sequence and then they decide to use one of their kill combos a moment later, you're hitting the floor.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

when ever it's convenient.

What would you do for any dangerous enemy that takes more than a minute to kill and has no stun phase? Simple question. As far as I can tell your options are to run away to switch safely (bigger damage cut), risk dying to keep up (perhaps a smaller damage cut if you get revived quickly) or just not switch at all (definite damage cut). This is a problem exclusive to Bouncer that some QOL with ability management would fix.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Arguing to play the class at 100% most optimal is just silly

I kind of expected this twisted angle sooner to be honest. The point is anyone who wanted to be "100% optimal" wouldn't be playing Bouncer in the first place because needing to undertake additional and dangerous ability upkeep not for benefit but to avoid being even worse is not and can never be optimal.

If Bouncer has to be weaker than other offensive melee classes, at the very least it shouldn't be harder to play as well.

Throughout all this I want to point out that the margins are minor in the grand scheme of things. I know all classes are going to be dying in UH and that the margin for error at this level is reduced across the board.

While my personal thought is that this exacerbates the problem with Bouncers' requirement to undertake a fussy switch process more than it does any other class' control issues, this is all still a drop in the ocean compared to the frankly absurd balance issues that existed in Phantasy Star Universe.

On the whole I'm quite happy. I just firmly believe that Bouncer needs dramatic simplification of its unwieldy ability management and that simply extending Photon Blades Fever a little isn't going to solve that.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

I'm sorry as far as i know the damage of the Force class right now in NA is kinda three time higher than the Bouncer class.

You wanna show us some math buddy or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

@Frostoxl Really? Do you need math for that? Have you tried Bouncer? if yes just try the other non Shion classes with the same equipment bonus. By the way, i cant be really not the right person to explain well the difficulty this class has but, i'm sure u can read the comments of HarmlessSyan and Miraglyth that are far more better than me on explaining the mechanics thats also because as you can see i'm not really good with english language. I made the post here based the experience i had while playing this class, supported by other people that have at last tried the Bouncer class, if you think that there is no problem at all, i'm glad you are satisfied with the actual situation and that you had shared your tought with me and the other people that are reading this post but, i'm not here for showing graphics or math but i can assure to you that without be a whale i think to have a good equip ( 200 S.atk Jupiter tullus and Trailblazer with 130 S.Atk each) with drink, alliance buff and shifta i cant reach 4m dps. We can argue about if i'm good or not as a player but i think that for episode 6 we are a little under the standard in term of damage/effort and without going to quote every single part of the precedent posts there are other issue that still remaining. I hope i was able to explain myself well and sorry for my bad english.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Really? Do you need math for that? Have you tried Bouncer?

Yes and Yes I played the class for most of Ep1-4 here on NA but saying one class does three times as much damage as another is something I cannot believe without pictures of a 20 second rockbear parse, and I did end up doing rockbear parses with similar weapons on my Force and Bouncer loadouts and Force does indeed do much more damage, just not three times as much, or anywhere near that on single targets.

It would help your argument greatly if you could provide in-game evidence that agree with your statement. Yes I need math. It's the language of the universe and much harder to dispute than "well, in my opinion, this and this and this" I'm not really satisfied with the state of tech classes either, more just resigned to the fact that things aren't going to change any time soon.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

The real question is how can we avoid needing to switch weapon, toggle Break Stance and activate the next boost as separate inputs every minute in the middle of increasingly lethal danger and with less Auto-Mate Half and Iron Will than we had before because Bouncer needs Phantom subclass just to try to keep up?

This is what people mean by alot of players been using Hu sub as a crutch, only answer has always been avoid getting hit.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

You also said it "was why I dropped Bo for Scions". Honestly that speaks for itself.

Welcome to every single base class in the age of Scion/Successor classes, unless they do massive class reworks - which they will in NGS - there is no arguing scions were designed for smoother play.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

What would you do for any dangerous enemy that takes more than a minute to kill and has no stun phase? Simple question. As far as I can tell your options are to run away to switch safely (bigger damage cut), risk dying to keep up (perhaps a smaller damage cut if you get revived quickly) or just not switch at all (definite damage cut). This is a problem exclusive to Bouncer that some QOL with ability management would fix.

All bosses have some sort of wind-up attack, even in fast bosses like Omega Masquerader, all 3 of the photoner fights as they rarely ever get stunned but plenty of wind-up moves, long fights like the later Solo Sodam that have like 100mil HP that last awhile. Mobbing example doesn't really make much sense because all class (well except Etoile) without auto-mate and xxx will procs runs into the risk of getting floored if they aren't paying attention, it isn't just a Bo - I need to switch weapons - problem.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

If Bouncer has to be weaker than other offensive melee classes, at the very least it shouldn't be harder to play as well.

It isn't though, it probably would be fighter at the moment and that's why they are getting so much potency up, and Bo can hardly be considered melee when spamming PB tech cancel during PBF which can be half of the time soon.

You might see giving up weapon switch as a flaw but I see it as SEGA giving players more options to play the class without forcing in the weapon switch or lose massive dps. You still get rewarded for weapon switching but it is not require anymore. It is like many players that decide to stick to a single weapon on any class even though there a situations where one weapon will be more suited than another. Using the example that you gave with Talis Forces, on paper the thrown talis bonus will trump rod outside of photon flare short charge and compound techs, but not many people uses it.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

The real question is how can we avoid needing to switch weapon, toggle Break Stance and activate the next boost as separate inputs every minute in the middle of increasingly lethal danger and with less Auto-Mate Half and Iron Will than we had before because Bouncer needs Phantom subclass just to try to keep up?

This is what people mean by alot of players been using Hu sub as a crutch, only answer has always been avoid getting hit.

This is a rather sorry deflection, to be honest. It doesn't matter what subclass Bouncer uses, none of them give iframes for switching weapon type.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

You also said it "was why I dropped Bo for Scions". Honestly that speaks for itself.

Welcome to every single base class in the age of Scion/Successor classes

Another deflection. The other non-scion classes don't have Bouncer-tough input management to deal with, they were just weaker than the scions and continuous balance adjustments that are clearly still happening have dealt and are dealing with that. But Bouncers that do have Bouncer-tough input management still have Bouncer-tough input management that scions learned a lesson from and which unlike other non-scion classes hasn't been remedied.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

What would you do for any dangerous enemy that takes more than a minute to kill and has no stun phase?

All bosses have some sort of wind-up attack

Ugh.... forget I asked. I can tell you don't want to answer the spirit of the question, and if you're going to lean on theoretical perfect coincidental timing with boss' most predictable attacks happening right when you need them to you're pretty much making my point for me.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

all class (well except Etoile) without auto-mate and xxx will procs runs into the risk of getting floored if they aren't paying attention, it isn't just a Bo - I need to switch weapons - problem.

Right, but the other classes always have dodging at their fingertips and Bouncer - a class that is meant to be about dodging does not because of their switch trouble. Please stop trying to duck this incredibly basic point, you have no idea how aggravating this approach to the discussion is becoming.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Bo can hardly be considered melee when spamming PB tech cancel during PBF which can be half of the time soon.

Yeah, I get it. When the design is an abject failure and they refuse to fix it, I guess we have to rely on spam cheese.

Can I make an obvious point? This topic is posted in a forum called "In-game Suggestions". It is explicitly asking for Bouncer to be reworked a bit, whether that is to bring it up to modern standards with the control simplicity of other classes or at least give us some Fighter-style buffs to make our input complexity actually worth going through.

Is that not a sensible request? The way you've been trying to distract from the ability management problems and encourage the use of spammy non-design solutions, it's starting to feel like you oppose such a change being made. Why?

You always need to learn the patterns of bosses - predicting it's moves whether it is for parrying or counters to up your damage - and in your case weapon swapping. You keep saying it is difficult, but weapon swapping and hitting 2 keys that can be fired off immediately one after another is hardly difficult.

As for the topic, the OP is asking for a straight buff after seeing Fi got one as they believe Bo is low damage - it isn't. Most of rework done now after the big EP5 reworks has been just potency up, range up, reducing animation length, recast down etc. None actually changes the game play of each class all that much. What I am opposing is just buffing Bo without considering class balance as I believe it is currently in a decent enough state compared to other classes damage wise. The weapon switch problem is hardly a problem for me or alot of Bo mains putting out videos and Bo able to perform well current end game content even using cheese methods which theoretically have lower damage output puts it at a much better place compared to Fi that is getting the buff.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

the OP is asking for a straight buff

I do agree that's the basic gist of their post, yes. And for what it's worth I find their unreferenced claim of Forces dealing triple the damage overall questionable (the real benefit of Forces is their absolute dominance of Time Attack quests; Bouncers absolutely cannot compete with them there!) But keep in mind they did include the ability management trouble as well:

u have to work more than twice than the other classes

You could argue this also refers to gearing up but knowing Bouncer's play difficulty and seeing they have a similar playtime to me, I would more easily believe they mean it to be the class' unparalleled complexity of combat.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

What I am opposing is just buffing Bo without considering class balance

Then why are you so persistently trying to argue with me for asking for our input hassle has a ton of room for improvement? Instead of saying Bouncer doesn't need a damage increase you've spent most of this topic repeatedly telling me to buy a mouse with 10 extra buttons when that doesn't change the basic fact that we shouldn't have to press several buttons to do something the game wants us to do and that no other class needs to do.

@HarmlessSyan said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

The weapon switch problem is hardly a problem for me or alot of Bo mains putting out videos

You admitted you haven't been a Bo main since Episode 5 onwards and that's when the escalating pace of the game has made it a problem. Meanwhile your only reference to real Bo mains' videos has either been on quests with a lot of downtime (usually content before Episode 5) or Bouncers who just abandoned weapon switching altogether which exemplifies rather than disagrees with the issue.

i once had a discussion with my alliance leader about "damage" - like everybody is completely focused on damage...wich is ok but they always forget about the "fun" part in a game....its not all about dealing perfect and top damage in pso2

you needa see there are a couple types of players:

one type who are talented players in this game and who play their classes alot - they are literally unbeatable in terms of top damage...if you arent talented or if you dont invest hundrets of hours of time to do perfect parries/counters and so on and run perfect builds (skill rings and weapon choice + weapon slots most importantly + choice of combos/PAs)...then youll never be the top of the leaderboards...your class will feel "lackluster" in terms of damage because you simply dont have the experience - but then theres the 0,1% of players who play their class in perfection and do 100 million dmg in a mpa while you do 30 million or even less (numbers just an example to show the gap)

and many other types of players dont wanna list them all...if you cant be a "top damage player" or you feel like your class needs a buff because it sucks in terms of damage....then youll feel the same about many other classes too...just focus on whats fun to play dont think you suck or that the class is bad or anything

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

like everybody is completely focused on damage...

Really hasn't been the case in this topic though.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

like everybody is completely focused on damage...

Really hasn't been the case in this topic though.

the initial topic is about "increasing dps for bouncer" so i dont see how that is not a case in this topic when the person who posted it wants a buff to increase his classes damage...maybe youre replying to the wrong post by accident

@JuggernautGTX

@JuggernautGTX said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

i once had a discussion with my alliance leader about "damage" - like everybody is completely focused on damage...wich is ok but they always forget about the "fun" part in a game....its not all about dealing perfect and top damage in pso2

you needa see there are a couple types of players:

one type who are talented players in this game and who play their classes alot - they are literally unbeatable in terms of top damage...if you arent talented or if you dont invest hundrets of hours of time to do perfect parries/counters and so on and run perfect builds (skill rings and weapon choice + weapon slots most importantly + choice of combos/PAs)...then youll never be the top of the leaderboards...your class will feel "lackluster" in terms of damage because you simply dont have the experience - but then theres the 0,1% of players who play their class in perfection and do 100 million dmg in a mpa while you do 30 million or even less (numbers just an example to show the gap)

and many other types of players dont wanna list them all...if you cant be a "top damage player" or you feel like your class needs a buff because it sucks in terms of damage....then youll feel the same about many other classes too...just focus on whats fun to play dont think you suck or that the class is bad or anything

It's clear that i'm not able to explain myself even if i try to reply many times..

Ok let's start from the main topic: Yes i would like to have an increment on my dps for the class i'm playing and, that can derive from passives, actives or other method that in a way or another ( Example: Shortening a cooldown, Simplify other things) improve the way you are playing that class.But i'm NOT saying that i want the Bouncer class to be the top of the list like: "Omg! Is so damn powerfull!1!1!" what i'm saying is that i feel it lack something because for doing the same thing of other classes i put way more effort and sometimes i'm not feeling repayed by that.Since someone other wat the math i will be sure to prepare some calculation as soon as i can. Moving on to the next topic, this game differently from others isnt made for the classic "Trinity" playstyle ( es: Tanky one that take aggross and trade dps for defence and utility, Healer/Buffers and, Dps) Since there is NO real difference in role on this game (Because till now there is no content that requires this kind of mechanics) it's all about Dps for each class. I'm pretty sure no one here builds full defense or just play corner buffing/healing so, yes i think there is nothing wrong in seeking a balanced experience in that way, maybe i'm wrong. For sure i dont consider myself a "Top player" but i'm not even so bad that dont know what to do with my class after all this time. And, just to be clear i may be selfish asking for just my Main class to be buffed but dont think that i'm blind about the other. All the non-Scion class have to be rebalanced since with the advent of the Scion classes the popularity of the previous one is dropped low.

@Frostoxl said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

Really? Do you need math for that? Have you tried Bouncer?

Yes and Yes I played the class for most of Ep1-4 here on NA.

Sadly the bad part come after that my friend.

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

what i'm saying is that i feel it lack something because for doing the same thing of other classes i put way more effort and sometimes i'm not feeling repayed by that.

Thanks for clarifying.

@Miraglyth said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

@NonnoN said in Would be nice to have a Serious Bouncer Buff:

what i'm saying is that i feel it lack something because for doing the same thing of other classes i put way more effort and sometimes i'm not feeling repayed by that.

Thanks for clarifying.

No problem, thanks to you for sharing your tought and suggestion on this topic!

One thing that would help smooth gameplay in such a way, without a significant redesign, is to remove the animation lock on subpallette skills. Especially skills with no actual animation attached to them; I should be able to start up Fields & Photon Fever in the air while doing a weapon action or PA but I can't. I have to land, do my activations one by one, and then get back in the air. No real reason to lock them to the ground when they're just toggles.