Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly

@VanillaLucia said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

In the simplest way I could put it, it gets hard enough that most people swap from a Hunter sub to an Etoile sub just so they can take another hit instead of being killed right away when Iron Will doesn't proc in time or when Automate Halfline fails to trigger because you got one-shotted.

This isn't true. People take Etoile sub because it's more damage. Hunter sub is still very tanky -- Flash Guard points apply at all times, even when you don't have Guard Stance activated.

This is why BoEt and BrEt don't get used (except BrEt for bow only). Their damage is not good, and you're better off using BoHu or BrHu. Same thing for Fighters utilizing Double Sabers -- FiHu does more damage than FiEt for that, and FiEt is only better for Knuckles/Twin Daggers.

FoEt is even in a similar situation. FoTe only beats FoEt when fighting light/dark/wind elemental weakness enemies with the respective element techs, and its only by a small margin of like 3%. FoEt compounds are stronger unless the enemy is weak to both elements of the compound, which is super rare - this only happens on like, Gemini. And Fire, Ice, and Lightning Techs (although Fire doesn't get used in UH other than for Status inflicting, i can explain why another time) all do a gigantic amount more dps at all times. This wouldn't work if there weren't new ways to manage PP in EP6, but thanks to Genon + strong weapons with potentials that reduce PP consumption and such and even unit SSAs that help with PP management, FoEt becomes way more viable. Hell this is even backed up by the drop in light weak enemies, wind techs being mostly bad, and dark techs being kinda hard to use especially on mobile enemies.

The extra tankiness is just the cherry on top. And hell, even if HuFi did a little more damage than HuEt in terms of multipliers, HuEt would probably be better because of the more lenient combo bonus allowing you to repeat a PA 3 times in a row while maintaining that damage bonus, whereas Fi sub only allows once before losing that extra damage.

TL;DR: Etoile is picked because of damage, not tank. The tank is a bonus.

@NotWhoUThink said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

@Vexation said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

I see a lot of refrences to the scions and their usefulness as subs. Do people just not main them as much? Totally off topic but I am curious.

Scion classes are mained much more in Japan than the base classes by a large margin. It's just when people are stubborn enough to play the base classes many of the weaknesses they have are also patched up by using the Scion classes as a sub class because of how much damage and utility they bring, there are a few exceptions of course like Force/Techter, Gunner/Fighter, etc. but it's pretty rare when a Scion class is generally worse than a base class as a sub class further pushing the idea that people should use a Scion class instead of a base class.

makes me laugh when global players push this narrative more than jp players actually do when just giving commentary about balance

@Vexation I would liken it to having more options. If you play as a Phantom or Etoile or have them leveled up you have the means of moving over from a class like the Etoile to being a Hunter/Etoile, Force/Etoile, and Ranger/Etoile without "losing" too much due to what would have originally be the incorrect Mag type.

Similarly, those with a DEX Mag can move from a Phantom to being a Bouncer/<Anything>, a Braver/<Anything>, or an <Anything>/Phantom because of what the Mag brings.

@Theuberclips said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

@VanillaLucia said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

In the simplest way I could put it, it gets hard enough that most people swap from a Hunter sub to an Etoile sub just so they can take another hit instead of being killed right away when Iron Will doesn't proc in time or when Automate Halfline fails to trigger because you got one-shotted.

TL;DR: Etoile is picked because of damage, not tank. The tank is a bonus.

I agree with you on your points but I mentioned that statement in the context of why the more casual players would look for the Etoile as a class considering the number of people I have seen try to push defense as a "meta" on its own. For the practical reasons the Etoile is what gives life to the Ranger and Force gameplay (which I am personally not fond of the two due to how playing those two optimally grinds against Episode 5 and 6 mechanics in a way I heavily dislike) and in my experience it allows other classes to maintain their "older" playstyles without having to adjust for too much other than manual healing via items. My response was more towards the "Hunter/Etoile" meme in that players can play with minimal effort because they are virtually invincible with Damage Balancer and Halfline Automate.

I unfortunately believe that in the global version if we see people using the Etoile as a subclass it is largely because Iron Will and Halfline Automate have failed them as a crutch so they will move onto something else that will "keep" them alive rather than for the added power and freedom the Etoile gives and offers. I was wanting to expand on my response but I decided to keep it simple to what I would have believed was the easiest convincing factor to drop the Hunter as a subclass and go straight to Etoile.

I already have a lvl 200 RNG Mag and a lvl 200 Dex mag. I was ready for scions.

@Theuberclips Eh, that last bit is debatable. It was addressed above, but specifically for Ranger, Etoile's combination of Damage Balancer and super armor while standing still is what lets it use its big PAs (Sat Cannon, Positron Blast) at all without dying for trying to use it if something aggros them mid-charge.

That, and for Bow BR, the same PA PP save cuts down a ton on their main damage dump (Banish into pen shot spam) cost, which is something like almost 240 base cost. The high damage bonuses are very nice, but even for Force, they get more out of Etoile's kit than they do out of Phantom's as a whole.

@BoJo-s-Bizzare-Adventures There's also the fact that Etoile's damage bonuses work on any angle while only being slightly lower than Fighter's damage bonuses, but Fighter's damage bonus only really works from in front or behind meaning a lot more positioning and thought has to be put into fighting enemies to maximize damage which let's be real here most people will take the path of least of resistance because people are inherently lazy. So Etoile as subclass only has a real downside in which you're forced to use mates rather than rely on healing from things like Resta or Megiverse which isn't that bad of a downside.

@NotWhoUThink Yep. Turns out having 3.3x your listed effective HP is pretty damn strong, and Atomizer/Mate Lovers makes sure the downtime for healing all that back is almost nonexistent -and- safe.

@Milranduil said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

@NotWhoUThink said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

@Vexation said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

I see a lot of refrences to the scions and their usefulness as subs. Do people just not main them as much? Totally off topic but I am curious.

Scion classes are mained much more in Japan than the base classes by a large margin. It's just when people are stubborn enough to play the base classes many of the weaknesses they have are also patched up by using the Scion classes as a sub class because of how much damage and utility they bring, there are a few exceptions of course like Force/Techter, Gunner/Fighter, etc. but it's pretty rare when a Scion class is generally worse than a base class as a sub class further pushing the idea that people should use a Scion class instead of a base class.

makes me laugh when global players push this narrative more than jp players actually do when just giving commentary about balance

Makes me laugh when JP get upset when Global players don’t think their assessment is not quite right.

@Milk this was exactly the meaning of the post. Was a way of telling people: experiment the feel for it now, taste what it means with your hands.

There's no shame in staying Hu sub instead of Ph, till somebody get's the hang of it. Was just an invite to practice now that people can, without being a drag to others.

@Rang-Dipkin is not like that actually. I was just saying to avoid Vets input such as muself. 'Cause if you ask out there people will tell ya to go sub Ph, without explaining why is better and HOW it's better.

Nobody takes the time to explain stuff to new players, they just give for granted that people know how to play their class, wich, is not true.

Is not bringin a problem out before is here. I've all rdy saw this, and experienced it when UH got release in JP. I was one of the aboce mentioned face tanking Braver. I don't think is erong letting people know that Ph sub is best only if you play Braver correctly and drop the Bad habits that come with Hu sub. Othereise, Hu sub is still better.

@Alun of course i don't! The game is F2P. And in any case you are free to do what ya want with your game experience. Just remember this when people will not revive you 'cause you are a waste of Atomizers, or not invite you to their party 'cause you keep dying.

A lil practice before hand, since EP6 will come out in a few days might help, and make your enjoyment of the content worth it.

Trust me, is not fun to face tank the ground 80%- of the time, i did experience that myself, when UH came out on JP server.

Again, feel free to ignore it, but, don't act like this. I would have appreciated a more explanatory answer, then "You don't pay my sub"

@Hatsodoom Man you can play how you want. But understand this: people will not want to play with you if you don't improve and become a drag to others.

The kind of attitude you show dosn't improve ypur gameplay, actually. Learn at your pace and do how ya want, but don't expect people to let you do. This game came out 8 years ago, math has been done, class have been explored trough and trough, people know ins and outs of this game, and since it's the biggest part of the player base, they will expect you to do the same, otherwise, you gonna have a rough time adapt. Eventually you will, but, at the start this is not going to be fun for you.

@Theuberclips there's no need you do. We might never be in the same MPA. But if you happen to be on it, and suck , with this attitude, i would let you stay on the ground the entirety of the quest.

As many other JP vets will do. In UH people are not going to carry your ass. And nobody is gonna be understanding if you don't play correctly.

With this said, enjoy the game in your own way. Nut don't expect others to let you do. 'Cause they will not.

Like in any other MMO. Hopes this makes it clear.

@JoiningVase4637 said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:

@Theuberclips there's no need you do. We might never be in the same MPA. But if you happen to be on it, and suck , with this attitude, i would let you stay on the ground the entirety of the quest.

As many other JP vets will do. In UH people are not going to carry your ass. And nobody is gonna be understanding if you don't play correctly.

With this said, enjoy the game in your own way. Nut don't expect others to let you do. 'Cause they will not.

Like in any other MMO. Hopes this makes it clear.

JP has been doing that anyway! They the first to shout, something along the lines, “Trash” is the coin phrase.

But what is funny is to me is that most of these JP veterans are really NA who gotten, what I call early access to game mechanics from true Japanese veterans true Pro player who was kind enough and patience enough to share information without the condescending tones of superiority!

@RainGnyu man the condescing tones right now happen 'cause people act in the way they do. Many class guides are out there and people can all rdy learn all they need to and what Vet expect them to know.

Is fine play in the way somebody wants, is not fun to drag other players down just 'cause somebody can't accept stuff, that's factual, despite of the way it was worded.

If you did ignore mu advice 'cause you didn't like the way i did sound, is fine by me.

I aknowledge i should have worded it better . As i said in the post , "i might sound dickish" was put there 'cause i worded this stuff in a way that, altough right, might not have been the best. But it was not meant to be the best. The entire post was a warning more then a " you guys suck" type deal. Even if it came out that way.