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@Milranduil That definitely makes sense to me as well as the few encounters I have had were largely during the Black Dragon when it still had an incapacitation limit or was around the Elzelion fight during the Monster Hunter Frontier collaboration which is also where I met some of those players I was mentioning who had comments on some of the more obnoxious players. Otherwise in general everything else in-game seemed to be very smooth and friendly.
@Milk said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
I agree with you, I didn’t think OP was being malicious, just being helpful. I feel there was just a misunderstanding.
I don't believe there is a misunderstanding--this is just western mentality in a nutshell. Any time a recommendation like this is made, a sizeable portion of people get overly defensive and scream "elitism." In their mind, they are always right and they don't think anyone should tell them how they should perform because they "play for fun" and actually don't care enough to pull their own weight when playing with others in harder content. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an online game and teamwork is key. 
Of course one can bring up the fact that the tone of the OP, wording etc is not that great. But even if the guy wrote it as polite as possible, people are still gonna get mad.
@JoiningVase4637 said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
@Sparhawk the game sure does not care. The 9ne that do are players, and player are quick to outcast someone if they don't pull their weight.
In JP people get kicked put of UQ even on non Veteran Mode instanced content.
They will put down the beacon, let you join the party, and the first time you die 3 times in a row and wonder why the people in the MPAZ are leaving, is all rdy too late.
There's no theorycrafting, there's no learning the meachanics on your own. The game is 8 years old. It got a rigid META and a demanding skill ceiling set in stone by players themselves. And if you don't follow it, you get 2 choice.
1- Play with premades or your Alliance 2- Fall in the META
Is it really a big mystery why some people react negatively to this thread? We have to attribute it to a "western mentality" huh?
It might be good advice in the end, and good on those that can take the good with the bad, but don't pretend nothing was wrong with the delivery. Walk up to someone mowing their lawn, minding their business and start lecturing them on what they're doing wrong sometime. See how they react.
I don't even play braver/hunter XD Though good advice in general for anyone currently relying on a hunter sub that may be wanting to switch to phantom. My issue was always with the tone of the message. I have no need to "defend" myself as I wasn't ever under attack. Thank you @_Flux_ for re-iterating the points I already made. ^^
Glad to back you up @Vexation . I don't play the class either, I mostly just got frustrated by that "western mentality" post. As far as I've read, this isn't a case of anyone simply being stubborn, and the people that actually frustrate OP likely aren't reading this thread anyway (advice and guides are everywhere as stated earlier, so anyone who would be on these forums/reddit most likely cares enough to find them as they are keeping up with the game).
@n_n said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
I don't believe there is a misunderstanding--this is just western mentality in a nutshell. Any time a recommendation like this is made, a sizeable portion of people get overly defensive and scream "elitism." In their mind, they are always right and they don't think anyone should tell them how they should perform because they "play for fun" and actually don't care enough to pull their own weight when playing with others in harder content. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an online game and teamwork is key.
Of course one can bring up the fact that the tone of the OP, wording etc is not that great. But even if the guy wrote it as polite as possible, people are still gonna get mad.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I've witnessed absurd behaviours since Esca, with its death penatlies, was introduced, with people ragequitting over someone giving tips (dragging the whole party out) or literally going berserk screaming "elitims" and trying to shame for fashion, calling names or as far as telling them to commit suicide.
That's one of the reasons I never bothered to give suggestions during UQ and that kind of behaviour, together with a plethora of afkers, is becoming increasingly annoying to the point I really wish that expert matching comes with EP6 release.
OP was a bit rude, but I agree with you that people would still get mad even if he was as polite as possible.
@n_n said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
@Milk said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
I agree with you, I didn’t think OP was being malicious, just being helpful. I feel there was just a misunderstanding.
I don't believe there is a misunderstanding--this is just western mentality in a nutshell. Any time a recommendation like this is made, a sizeable portion of people get overly defensive and scream "elitism." In their mind, they are always right and they don't think anyone should tell them how they should perform because they "play for fun" and actually don't care enough to pull their own weight when playing with others in harder content. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an online game and teamwork is key.
Of course one can bring up the fact that the tone of the OP, wording etc is not that great. But even if the guy wrote it as polite as possible, people are still gonna get mad.
I disagree.......he or she knew what type of tone The OP wanted to convey. I also disagree that the community would respond the same way if it was worded in a helpful up lifting way. The reason I say this is because The OP did not offer proper game play footage to strengthen the statement. Just a blanket statement of how some players maybe handicapping themselves with heal siphon arguments which may cause them to have a false perspective of the battle environment.
What I got from the OP opening statement is that he or she didn’t want to be the only Glass canon on the battle field. Raw power but no endurance! This game is about balancing or own personal play style.
Turtle and the hare analogy?
@n_n said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
@Milk said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
I agree with you, I didn’t think OP was being malicious, just being helpful. I feel there was just a misunderstanding.
I don't believe there is a misunderstanding--this is just western mentality in a nutshell. Any time a recommendation like this is made, a sizeable portion of people get overly defensive and scream "elitism." In their mind, they are always right and they don't think anyone should tell them how they should perform because they "play for fun" and actually don't care enough to pull their own weight when playing with others in harder content. A lot of people seem to forget that this is an online game and teamwork is key.
Of course one can bring up the fact that the tone of the OP, wording etc is not that great. But even if the guy wrote it as polite as possible, people are still gonna get mad.
Ahh I sort of know that feeling on ffxiv. I’m a Mentor on ffxiv(one of the few that actually takes it seriously to help) and I get a lot of hostility no matter how I word it. Once a player was literally making the entire party angry and at the end of the run I asked them to talk to me about it and in private we talked about how to prevent it in the future because it got ugly, it was one of the only times someone took my advice without the “u don’t pay my sub” hostility. I’ve been playing since launch and I can count on one hand this actually going well, I’ve even asked “Do you want to know X/do you need any help?”
You’re probably right that people just don’t want to be reminded of mistakes, even though everyone makes them and there’s nothing to be ashamed of. Denial is the worst thing a player can react with, how can you improve if you never admit you need improving? People have a right to play how they wish to a certain extent but if it’s hindering the enjoyment of others then something needs to change. In my ffxiv example, I talked to them because I feared they would keep angering players and they seemed genuinely upset this happened. Maybe not every player will care about that but I hope many do.
Like you said, we all play this game together and teamwork is key. What people do solo is their own business but nobody likes pulling deadweight, nobody likes feeling taken advantage of.
@RainGnyu what kind of footage do you even need to say people been using Hunter as a crutch to stay alive. The OP is addressing people like you that repeatedly states and praises Hunter surivability - using it to absorb hits rather than dodging, thinking it as a tank that have lower damage output to STAY on Hunter sub rather than switching off to a Scion class - to NOT be a glass cannon.
The messaging you got from the OP is very opposite of what they are saying - he is telling people to stay on Hu sub to stay alive. Yes the tone isn't the greatest from the OP especially his last post - but he is advising against people doing the glass cannon builds that haven't been doing dodging and avoiding attacks.
@JoiningVase4637 said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
In JP people get kicked put of UQ even on non Veteran Mode instanced content.
They will put down the beacon, let you join the party, and the first time you die 3 times in a row and wonder why the people in the MPAZ are leaving, is all rdy too late.
There's no theorycrafting, there's no learning the meachanics on your own. The game is 8 years old. It got a rigid META and a demanding skill ceiling set in stone by players themselves. And if you don't follow it, you get 2 choice.
1- Play with premades or your Alliance 2- Fall in the META
What am I even reading? A lot of this is blatantly false. Any good intentions that you may have had is completely gone from the perspective of another individual.
@Milk said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
You’re probably right that people just don’t want to be reminded of mistakes, even though everyone makes them and there’s nothing to be ashamed of. Denial is the worst thing a player can react with, how can you improve if you never admit you need improving? People have a right to play how they wish to a certain extent but if it’s hindering the enjoyment of others then something needs to change. In my ffxiv example, I talked to them because I feared they would keep angering players and they seemed genuinely upset this happened. Maybe not every player will care about that but I hope many do.
Like you said, we all play this game together and teamwork is key. What people do solo is their own business but nobody likes pulling deadweight, nobody likes feeling taken advantage of.
In every game there are players that do not read guides and play their class randomly, the key is their will to learn and correct their mistakes or just throw tantrums.
When I was playing Tera, my guild used to organize (free) carry runs to help randoms understand mechanics of instances like WHHM/MCHM and such.
Among many players we helped, I recall a priest using aggro crystals, that I helped understand what crystal she had to use (I gave her 2 sets for free because she was willing to learn), and a guy who literally went afk to eat an ice cream without telling anyone, made us wipe because he was supposed to destroy a totem and did not care at all to learn or focus (he only wanted loot).
People like the latter ended up being kicked from every party they joined, here I feel that people are reliant on the fact that, trolls aside, kicking players is not common and at the moment, without expert matching, there are many of the so hated "elitists" carrying them.
Probably, if expert matching ever comes here, there will be an hard "wake up" and complaints will follow.
@condor said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
@Milk said in Br/Ph might not be for you if you don't learn to play Br properly:
You’re probably right that people just don’t want to be reminded of mistakes, even though everyone makes them and there’s nothing to be ashamed of. Denial is the worst thing a player can react with, how can you improve if you never admit you need improving? People have a right to play how they wish to a certain extent but if it’s hindering the enjoyment of others then something needs to change. In my ffxiv example, I talked to them because I feared they would keep angering players and they seemed genuinely upset this happened. Maybe not every player will care about that but I hope many do.
Like you said, we all play this game together and teamwork is key. What people do solo is their own business but nobody likes pulling deadweight, nobody likes feeling taken advantage of.
In every game there are players that do not read guides and play their class randomly, the key is their will to learn and correct their mistakes or just throw tantrums.
When I was playing Tera, my guild used to organize (free) carry runs to help randoms understand mechanics of instances like WHHM/MCHM and such.
Among many players we helped, I recall a priest using aggro crystals, that I helped understand what crystal she had to use (I gave her 2 sets for free because she was willing to learn), and a guy who literally went afk to eat an ice cream without telling anyone, made us wipe because he was supposed to destroy a totem and did not care at all to learn or focus (he only wanted loot).
People like the latter ended up being kicked from every party they joined, here I feel that people are reliant on the fact that, trolls aside, kicking players is not common and at the moment, without expert matching, there are many of the so hated "elitists" carrying them.
Probably, if expert matching ever comes here, there will be an hard "wake up" and complaints will follow.
I was helped by a guild like that in TERA! One player spent hours answering my noob questions. For what it’s worth, players like you had a significant impact on me back in the day.
It may be an unpopular opinion but I feel kicking should be an option, but a vote kick system like ffxiv. Sure there may be toxic alliances that would use it but why would you want to party with them anyway? You should get kicked for leeching or causing significant grief but right now those players get away with it. I get sick of carrying those players, it makes me not want to do certain content. I’m a casual player but I don’t like it either.
No one is expecting anyone to become the top 1% but I too have seen players(especially with a katana) spamming one skill and eating the floor, completely ignoring the bread & butter of their damage because the game was stupid-easy until SH. They could get away with no rotation, no dodging or blocking. Now the game is “too hard” because they never bothered to learn their class in the first place, not even the offered practice quest. It’s about to get even harder, they have to learn.
@condor With the complaints I have already seen on optional content (like the Phaleg duel or the Omega Masquerade solo Ultimate Quest) it is baffling to me that on the global side of things players have it extremely easy. I was anticipating things like the Level Cap Trials for Successor classes but those were completely removed on our end (where the Japanese version still has them) so there literally is no stopping classes like the Hero from being picked up, power-leveled, and still being handled by players who don't care to learn its mechanics.
It is strange to me that there is so much to this game that can be sped through without ever really having to struggle or learn as the game almost seems like it tries not to punish players (such as the Hostility and Madness Emergency Quests, or the Mining Base Emergency Quests that reward players even for failure). The few times there were actual failure conditions brought out so much salt in both "casual" players and "elitists" that it baffles me to see people going at each other or vilifying one another over it (for instance blaming all the players who played on the Japanese side as being toxic elitists for already knowing the content or already having been prepared for future content).
Admittedly I never have played very many online games or have interacted with many people over the internet but it baffles me just how commonplace it seems to be able to shame people for playing a game differently or for wanting to have a certain experience and it baffles me further on how some of those people actively go out of their way to still play the victim as they sabotage other players. In this case, I never have encountered so many people during Advance Quests and Buster Quests who would actively shame players for playing their classes (for example the number of people who wanted me to hold the shoot button on the Hero's guns because it was "easier" or the number of people who would complain about not having a Sigma Bastad/Shooting Drive to alt+tab out of the game with or even the people who expected Million Storm out of a Bow-Braver) whether it was optimally or not. I have a relatively hard time in this game finding organized groups outside of family and friends simply because I feel there is a pressure to be "average" but not "too average" because underperforming or overperforming definitely puts a target on my head. The most recent instance I can recall of this was a Mining Defense mission where I was leveling up a new character with a friend and I happened to be a Hero with mediocre equipment during a Very Hard run where a person confidently thought that a party of 5/12 would have been "easy." At the end of that I was blasted as being "unfair" to the players because the scores were skewed so much because I was consistently reaching 9,000-30,000 points per wave when the players in second and third would have barely reached 200-500 points unless they used the AIS and covered the side of the map I was not on.
I do find myself curious on seeing how the global players will react to Ultra Hard and future content especially when the current "safe" options start to meet their match. Even as we walk into Episode 6 better-prepared than the Japanese version was I find myself curious on how the players who claim the game was too easy will take it as well as to see how the players who claim the game is impossible (as it is) will take it. My personal goal is to simply play a game I enjoy with others I enjoy playing with so I don't particularly know if I lean towards the casual or the elitist side of things or if what I really have to say matters all that much in the grand scheme of things for a game that is so casually-oriented in the first place.
@VanillaLucia Somebody shared a YT video showing a Phantom taking almost 4 minutes to kill a Rockbear on UH. That showed me just how big the jump in difficulty is going to be. It was awesome to watch but the enemies are tanky AF and hit like tanks, too. I can only compare it to trying to solo an Ultimate at minimal level with low rare, unground equipment. It may be possible but it will depend on skill.
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