WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?

@ZhaoYun96 Apparently there are ways to shift elements, based on ring skills I think.

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Milk said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Milk said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

Luster being the last class really is a shame because only 10 out of the 18 got the love they needed with some of the weapons already being popular choices like katanas and swords while things like wired lances and partizans got left in the dust.

It’s sad because those weapons are really fun. When I was leveling my Hunter subclass I had a lot of fun with partizan and it has one of the best camos in the game imho, Marie’s weapon from Zig is godly! Wired Lance was the first weapon I ever played but I gave it up after not being able to keep up with people.

I have a character that uses partizans for cosplay reasons and the biggest issues I find with partizans in general is the lack of good mobility (especially while in combat) and the back loaded damage which makes it difficult to land a good amount of dps on certain targets that are near constantly moving.

My biggest problem is my main weapon benefits from being in the air and partizan is the opposite, it trips me up every time! I combatted mobility with Safoie Zero since my goodness it’s hard to get around without it! But it’s only my sub class so I don’t know how useful that really is for Hunter mains.

I don't mind the weakness of partizans being weaker in the air since I use Jild Girola which helps to partly mitigate the weakness of it's air combat capabilities, and as far as movement goes I just use a wired lance since out of combat it has pretty good mobility with it's low pp cost.

Great tip, thank you! I didn’t know I could mitigate air weakness. I liked wired lance but I couldn’t keep up with rifles in the mining base UQ and I got so discouraged.

@Bellion

Thank you for the very detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to give me one. This is something I'll need to chew on for awhile so I'm afraid this isn't much in the way of a reply. But I felt compelled to thank you. Please have a good day/night.

@Milk said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Milk said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Milk said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

Luster being the last class really is a shame because only 10 out of the 18 got the love they needed with some of the weapons already being popular choices like katanas and swords while things like wired lances and partizans got left in the dust.

It’s sad because those weapons are really fun. When I was leveling my Hunter subclass I had a lot of fun with partizan and it has one of the best camos in the game imho, Marie’s weapon from Zig is godly! Wired Lance was the first weapon I ever played but I gave it up after not being able to keep up with people.

I have a character that uses partizans for cosplay reasons and the biggest issues I find with partizans in general is the lack of good mobility (especially while in combat) and the back loaded damage which makes it difficult to land a good amount of dps on certain targets that are near constantly moving.

My biggest problem is my main weapon benefits from being in the air and partizan is the opposite, it trips me up every time! I combatted mobility with Safoie Zero since my goodness it’s hard to get around without it! But it’s only my sub class so I don’t know how useful that really is for Hunter mains.

I don't mind the weakness of partizans being weaker in the air since I use Jild Girola which helps to partly mitigate the weakness of it's air combat capabilities, and as far as movement goes I just use a wired lance since out of combat it has pretty good mobility with it's low pp cost.

Great tip, thank you! I didn’t know I could mitigate air weakness. I liked wired lance but I couldn’t keep up with rifles in the mining base UQ and I got so discouraged.

Well not completely but what it's potential does is that if your partizan gear gauge is full if you use photon arts in the air the gear gauge will always stay at full and it restores more pp while guarding compared to other partizans, and since it's a unique 14 star weapon it also has a redux potential which at max increases the power by 20%.

I have a question prompted by the prior discussion :

What is normal content?

Whenever these discussions come up, people are always handwaved with "yeah but it's x content which is not normal content", but you could say that about everything because PSO2 does not follow a standard main game mode with side modes, rather it just has a lot of modes.

Things like Time Attack, Endless, Divide, solo Ultimate etc are always described as not normal content so balance doesn't matter there and shouldn't be the standard , but where does it matter? Which content should we be looking at then if all these modes aren't part of main PSO2?

@Matt said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

I have a question prompted by the prior discussion :

What is normal content?

Whenever these discussions come up, people are always handwaved with "yeah but it's x content which is not normal content", but you could say that about everything because PSO2 does not follow a standard main game mode with side modes, rather it just has a lot of modes.

Things like Time Attack, Endless, Divide, solo Ultimate etc are always described as not normal content so balance doesn't matter there and shouldn't be the standard , but where does it matter? Which content should we be looking at then if all these modes aren't part of main PSO2?

This puzzles me as well because the global version has never experienced "normal" content in this case if we are going by what the Japanese version was constrained by at the time (things like Deus Esca pre-nerf before we got so many different kinds of New-Type weapons whereas the global version face-rolled him with Nemesis/Raven New-Types in general and also fought him with Episode 6-scalling including most of the Episode 5 tweaks barring the Level 85 skills).

The only real constant between both global and the Japanese version are quests like the Time Attacks, Extreme Quests (particularly the solo ones), Endless Quests,and the solo Ultimate Quest if you wanted to gauge both player skill and the capabilities of the class. Otherwise you can legitimately throw up Challenge Mode which hasn't been touched on the Japanese side and is the same on global but you don't get to play your normal classes and your "normal" gameplay there.

The only other real factor I can think of is "Extra Hard Emergency Quests" but those vary being trivial where you don't even need a quarter or half of the party to know what they're doing to succeed in general for the boss fights and you have Ultra Hard where the punishing difficulty is trivialized and undone by having Moon Atomizers in general. I pesronally feel like all of the quests should be considered "normal" content and gameplay which is where the problem of the Successor classes really comes in as not every class is treated equally in "all" content. There is nothing that serves as an obstacle for the Hero, Phantom, Etoile, or Luster in the same way it serves as an obstacle for classes like the Ranger, Force, and Fighter even with the newer successor classes as options because these classes have a fundamentally different design philosophy.

Earlier this year (in about February) Sega did conduct a survey among its players to see what the class population was and there is no denial about how the Successor classes (this was before Luster as well) are effectively ruling the game.

PSO2 Station! Plus #4 Recap (Look in the "Player Survey" tab)

You can see that during this time the Phantom was more popular than the Hero and that under it with the Player Satisfaction survey that the Force has the most unsatisfied players. I do not know of how the results are nowadays but there is really something to be said about how how the original class can still play in the content but has to put in significantly more effort to keep up and unfortunately that keeping up is often times counterproductive to the classes themselves.

@Matt

Personally speaking I think endless, solo content (like extreme's/solo triggers,) and special fights like the phaleg fight from story are not "norm." (i've no idea what divide quests are so I can't say anything about that.) However even that in itself isn't really a fair thing to state because I've no idea what content the developers balance around.

It's not as easy as say Warframe where after x many rounds or x many minutes in an endless mission DE stops caring about what you experience or are capable of.

@Knight-Raime said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Matt

Personally speaking I think endless, solo content (like extreme's/solo triggers,) and special fights like the phaleg fight from story are not "norm." (i've no idea what divide quests are so I can't say anything about that.) However even that in itself isn't really a fair thing to state because I've no idea what content the developers balance around.

It's not as easy as say Warframe where after x many rounds or x many minutes in an endless mission DE stops caring about what you experience or are capable of.

I feel that Endless Quests serve very well as a benchmark for a class's capabilities because this is where "skill" and "knowledge" actually gets to play a role in the game where otherwise having a full party in an Extra Hard or Ultra Hard Emergency Quest still results in people who can carry one another. All of the classes are geared towards the goal of dealing optimal damage (including even the Techer who largely is a support class) and Endless Quests definitely push these classes and their synergy to the test because in order to do well players really have to know what they're dealing with.

Similarly, the solo content also gauges this because every class can fight and win. But it is noticeable that classes like the Force and Ranger suffer from fighting Phlaeg and Omega Masquerade in that their design philsophy legitimately did not adapt to these fights whereas classes like the Fighter were made "more" for these kinds of fights than for mobbing content. It doesn't change the fact that regardless of whoever it is, the Successor classes can walk in and play everything without hurdles and obstacles like the other classes have to (the Luster for example can bypass weapon resistances which trivializes the Phaleg and Anga Phandaj fights).

Divide Quests are similar in these but I have not played too much of them to get very well acquainted with them. They are similar to Endless Quests, Advance Quests, and Extreme Quests in that you have "steps" that you run through (five at a time) and that your progress used to reset every week. The leader navigates a team through challenges and can pick between specific paths for more rewards or more lives as lives are limited in these quests. With a varying number of objectives the entire team gets rewards they can use on the Divide Medal exchange shops for a lot of the higher-end Episode 6 equipment.

A lot of what you are saying is what I agree with as well in that on a casual level players can play just about any class (and class combination) they want but one of the biggest problems with this game is that when you are faced with it a lot of classes are faced with obstacles, roadblocks, and difficulties that simply do not at exist at all for other classes. One of those gripes I would have is with the Fighter (I was originally a Twin-Daggers main before shifting to Gunner/Fighter), the Techer (they have so much "active skills" in the their subpalette they need to turn on before a quest that I feel it should've just been automatic), and the Force (their playstyle legitimately is not my cup of tea but I continuously try to play the class because I want to learn to handle them well and decently but legitimately I have been spoiled by the faster classes). I would put the Ranger up there as well because I really do not enjoy the idea of staying still and being planted to try and shoot moving targets especially with how slow their aiming is (Positron Blast vs. the Sword-Hero's Weapon Action).

The main classes I have been adopting have been the Hero, Phantom, and Luster simply because their aesthetics are appealing to me and the sheer level of responsiveness and control these classes give you really do feel "natural" in the context of Episode 5 and Episode 6 content. The reason why I did not mention the Etoile is simply because I haven't played as them enough and have seen siblings playing as them to know that they would also count but I simply need to play as them more to be able to confirm that for myself beyond dabbling casually with them. Classes like the Hero and Luster pushed for so much more control in the player's hands and classes like the Phantom and Etoile push for so much more conveniences and quality-of-life changes that it is upsetting to me that the only reason why the Ranger still stands up is because of Weak Bullet/Blight Rounds or that a Techer stands up is because of their support skills. Every class should be able to stand up more evenly than this and for the Gunner/Fighter to have persisted as long as it did (and still get nerfed) has me questioning what Sega is thinking because not all classes are treated equally and at the same time it seems as though Sega is intentionally trying to box in players to conform to the playstyles they want even if they are objectively more limiting than other classes. I do not feel that being in a full party of other players who are more capable on paper while I play as the class that was left behind is that enjoyable (though it is nice to be able to pull these classes to their use) but the effort required to try and bring these classes up to par or to make them viable doesn't even remotely match the bare minimum amount of effort other classes can do in the face of even the lazier playstyles (like Million Storm-spamming Bravers because Banishing Arrow and its setup is too difficult for them or the Heroes who fly around with holding Rising Slash as their only attack). To me this is not an issue of "make the Fighter stronger" as much as it is to fundamentally revamp them as a class - as should be the case for the other base classes. New Genesis seems to be doing this already but I would be curious to see if any of these changes are backported or if legitimately New Genesis is the solution Sega intends on deploying to solve these balancing and design issues.

@VanillaLucia I also hate how the successor classes make most other non successor subclasses nearly irrelevant with the huge amount of utility they offer which makes them a no brainer as a subclass in most cases. Sega seems to be the type of developer (the JP team anyways) to sweep things under the rug hoping no one will notice.

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@VanillaLucia I also hate how the successor classes make most other non successor subclasses nearly irrelevant with the huge amount of utility they offer which makes them a no brainer as a subclass in most cases. Sega seems to be the type of developer (the JP team anyways) to sweep things under the rug hoping no one will notice.

I would have taken it a step further and pinned it on the Hunter as a subclass (unconditional damage with the exception of Techniques, damage reduction, automatic healing via an item use, and a chance to survive a fatal attack at 75% that rolls every time you take a fatal attack) that skewed what you could consider to be "basic survival" for the classes. The Summoner with its lack of multipliers to really edge out the Hunter and Fighter without Summoner's Mark/Point Assist, and the Fighter's more strict (but stronger multipliers) really pushed these three as being the ideal subclasses for the most part where the only real exception was Force/Techer or the Ranger as a subclass for the Gunner and Ranger if you were extremely precise and were playing content where the Ranger's multipliers could be utilized.

The Etoile as a subclass really packages the Hunter, Fighter, and Summoner's utility in a way so all classes (outside of other Successor classes) get this basic "survival kit" where the Phantom really brings out a great deal of quality-of-life for techniques support and opening up more hybrid and damage options and opportunities.

@VanillaLucia said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@VanillaLucia I also hate how the successor classes make most other non successor subclasses nearly irrelevant with the huge amount of utility they offer which makes them a no brainer as a subclass in most cases. Sega seems to be the type of developer (the JP team anyways) to sweep things under the rug hoping no one will notice.

I would have taken it a step further and pinned it on the Hunter as a subclass (unconditional damage with the exception of Techniques, damage reduction, automatic healing via an item use, and a chance to survive a fatal attack at 75% that rolls every time you take a fatal attack) that skewed what you could consider to be "basic survival" for the classes. The Summoner with its lack of multipliers to really edge out the Hunter and Fighter without Summoner's Mark/Point Assist, and the Fighter's more strict (but stronger multipliers) really pushed these three as being the ideal subclasses for the most part where the only real exception was Force/Techer or the Ranger as a subclass for the Gunner and Ranger if you were extremely precise and were playing content where the Ranger's multipliers could be utilized.

The Etoile as a subclass really packages the Hunter, Fighter, and Summoner's utility in a way so all classes (outside of other Successor classes) get this basic "survival kit" where the Phantom really brings out a great deal of quality-of-life for techniques support and opening up more hybrid and damage options and opportunities.

I do have to agree with you for the most part however while I don't see it as much as problem (although I do think it still is) is that Hunter, Fighter, and Summoner are considered some of the weaker main classes either do to lack of dps or survivability.

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@VanillaLucia said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@NotWhoUThink said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@VanillaLucia I also hate how the successor classes make most other non successor subclasses nearly irrelevant with the huge amount of utility they offer which makes them a no brainer as a subclass in most cases. Sega seems to be the type of developer (the JP team anyways) to sweep things under the rug hoping no one will notice.

I would have taken it a step further and pinned it on the Hunter as a subclass (unconditional damage with the exception of Techniques, damage reduction, automatic healing via an item use, and a chance to survive a fatal attack at 75% that rolls every time you take a fatal attack) that skewed what you could consider to be "basic survival" for the classes. The Summoner with its lack of multipliers to really edge out the Hunter and Fighter without Summoner's Mark/Point Assist, and the Fighter's more strict (but stronger multipliers) really pushed these three as being the ideal subclasses for the most part where the only real exception was Force/Techer or the Ranger as a subclass for the Gunner and Ranger if you were extremely precise and were playing content where the Ranger's multipliers could be utilized.

The Etoile as a subclass really packages the Hunter, Fighter, and Summoner's utility in a way so all classes (outside of other Successor classes) get this basic "survival kit" where the Phantom really brings out a great deal of quality-of-life for techniques support and opening up more hybrid and damage options and opportunities.

I do have to agree with you for the most part however while I don't see it as much as problem (although I do think it still is) is that Hunter, Fighter, and Summoner are considered some of the weaker main classes either do to lack of dps or survivability.

and yet hunter remains one of the strongest raid boss classes

It's my understanding that hunter is good for raids only for it's survivability. Which means it relies on the rest of the party to make up for it's lack of damage. Not saying it can't do damage mind you, but that it doesn't do as much.

@Vexation said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

It's my understanding that hunter is good for raids only for it's survivability. Which means it relies on the rest of the party to make up for it's lack of damage. Not saying it can't do damage mind you, but that it doesn't do as much.

You can’t do any damage if you are dead. I think the party relies more on the Hunter. Because if you really think about it the hunter class is more of the initiator.

Traditional subclass isn't dead yet. This is the last census on subclasses released during 8th anniversary on JP - surveyed people's usage of subclasses during February 2020. This is about 2 months after Etoile release - the Etoile fad was starting to wear off as Etoile main class in January was 19% and dropped to13.6% for February - will further drop to 11% when Luster comes out.

http://pso2.jp/players/event/8th_anniversary/report/01/

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Phantom indeed gained alot of popularity for caster classes especially Techter - where you can play effectively as a hybrid rather than just mostly melee. But you can see most people still prefer Techter on Force because of boosting of other 3 tech elements and better PP recovery with PP conversion when needed. Etoile while is a good subclass, people got overly dependent on lifesteal and you can't lifesteal with Etoile.

As for people saying Hunter is only good for staying alive - Partizan Hunter have top notch bossing DPS and if you don't like partizan - Blaze/Ignition Parry on sword have ridiculous damage boost provided you can get the parry timing right to "ignite" the PA. People dropped Etoile (least played Scion) because it is only good for staying alive, it's getting some boost in upcoming patch but nothing to fix it's slow action speed and getting screwed on damage cap.