WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?

@VanillaLucia

You are correct. I'd forgotten to add ranger into my response. It's still early in the day for me.

All the classes are relevant. They all have a place. So you should definitely play something you will like or that matches with your personal play style. There will always be a "Meta" or the best way to play a specific class and people might often disagree on that Meta. But, play what you like!

Thank you all!!!

I have to say, if a class isn't fun or frustrates you, it is probably the wrong class for you. Meta is Meta, but if it doesn't fit you, try something else.

Brain dead hero is great for me!

@Knight-Raime said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Bellion Excuse me but you're wrong. Techer is still very strong. Gunner is still absurdly strong. Fighter can still compete. ranger isn't replaced. etc. You're forgetting that aside from HR the PH and ET can be subclasses which elevates these classes greatly. There's absolutely no content that exists that you cannot do with a non Scion class and not do well with. Please do not equate ease of use as power.

You didn't read the whole post did you? They're talking about class strength, not ability to use them as subclasses (completely missing the point). Scion classes are just multis as a subclass; it has nothing to do with the class's actual power - their weapons.

You're right that there is niche content where some scions lose to basic classes (look at enhancer trigger being all gu), but the keyword here is niche. Saying "There's absolutely no content that exists that you cannot do with a non Scion class and not do well with." is demonstrably false. Endless quests exist which are ruled for high scores by scion classes across the board. Unless you're willing to double down on this statement of ignorance, that the best players in the game don't know what they're doing or talking about (like Bellion), you may want to rethink your stance.

@Milranduil

No no I did read their entire post. You clearly didn't read mine or misunderstood it. I stated that non scion classes become much better because they have access to said classes as subclasses. If you're telling me we have to ignore subclasses as a thing for main class viability then there's no point in discussing with you when you're just going to skew something so heavily in your favor. Bellion's post mentions nothing about weapons either so I don't know why you're mentioning that.

My argument also mentions no where that non scion classes regularly/routinely are the best/optimal choice for any content. The entire response I gave was to point out that there are non scion class setups that let you comfortably complete pretty much any content in the game. I don't have the luxury of knowing who Bellion is or their intent with the response I replied to was. But it sounded like they were saying "Scion class or go home." Which is what I wanted to correct.

I might be ignorant to a fair number of things in this game but that doesn't change my statement you seem to accuse me of being ignorant on. It's a hyperbolic statement made on purpose. Endless quests are not considered standard content (to my knowledge) from most of the players i've ever talked to. Using endless quests to judge actual class capabilities alone is a fools errand. Now if you want to tell me that say GU/FI actually struggles to complete something like UH expeditions or a specific UQ then sure. You've got an argument there. But again I will restate so there's zero confusion.

By enlarge you can take almost any class into any piece of content and perform just fine. You do not need to play a Scion class in order to participate effectively in MPA content.

I would suggest if you wish to respond to me again you give a direct response with an actual counter point(s) to my bolded statement alone. If you cannot then we are done here.

@Knight-Raime said in WHICH SCION CLASS DO YOU THINK IS THE STRONGEST? HERO? PHANTOM? ETOILE? LUSTER?:

@Milranduil

If you're telling me we have to ignore subclasses as a thing for main class viability then there's no point in discussing with you when you're just going to skew something so heavily in your favor.

My argument also mentions no where that non scion classes regularly/routinely are the best/optimal choice for any content. The entire response I gave was to point out that there are non scion class setups that let you comfortably complete pretty much any content in the game. I don't have the luxury of knowing who Bellion is or their intent with the response I replied to was. But it sounded like they were saying "Scion class or go home." Which is what I wanted to correct.

I might be ignorant to a fair number of things in this game but that doesn't change my statement you seem to accuse me of being ignorant on. It's a hyperbolic statement made on purpose. Endless quests are not considered standard content (to my knowledge) from most of the players i've ever talked to. Using endless quests to judge actual class capabilities alone is a fools errand. Now if you want to tell me that say GU/FI actually struggles to complete something like UH expeditions or a specific UQ then sure. You've got an argument there. But again I will restate so there's zero confusion.

By enlarge you can take almost any class into any piece of content and perform just fine. You do not need to play a Scion class in order to participate effectively in MPA content.

  1. The entire point of subclasses are multis. Et's functionality as a main class vs a subclass are completely different, same for Ph, same for Lu. You cannot use Et DS when Et is your subclass, so what does it matter that you have all of DS's skills or functionality if its your subclass? This was the point I was making.

  2. I'm so glad you brought this up. Bell has mained Fighter for literally years and still devotes the majority of his time playing it despite how trash the class is compared to others with EP6 balance. He has room to speak because he's extraordinarily proficient at multiple classes including scion classes and non-scion classes. 2b) More to the point, " there are non scion class setups that let you comfortably complete pretty much any content in the game." This is an incredibly low bar to set. If I solo'd a UQ in 50min with one class using optimal play while clearing with another class in 20min playing optimally, would you say that's balance? No, of course not. Both cleared, but the time difference shows a clear difference in power. There is no content in this game where it's difficult to clear, so bringing that up to discuss balance is utterly pointless.

  3. The JP community has used both endless quests as a primary balance point because the content has never changed while balance has. It's the barometer many use to judge a class's overall ability because of the variety of situations. It's not the end all be all, but it easily highlights classes strengths and weaknesses when looking at various stages with different classes. 3b) I find it amusing you dismiss endless quest because others on NA don't talk about it. Check twitter or youtube, you will find a plethora of content.

Making the argument that "this class can participate and contribute" is pointless because this isn't your typical MMO. All content is always clearable, it's a matter of how fast, easily, etc which is how balance actually needs to be discussed.

@Knight-Raime I just wanna mention that putting an ultimatum in your post to specifically get someone to address a point that is 1 part of a whole is pretty lame and kind of harms your credibility.

To actually address the bolded text though, the main issue with that statement is that it's not really a debatable point to make as the game has been designed completely idiotproof where you can clear content comfortably if everyone in the MPA is playing their class of choice at 20% of its capability. Seriously, failure conditions are basically absent entirely nowadays and everything that may have some sort of 'challenge' is completely optional.

Also reading Bellion's post, they clearly state that:

they won't do a thing that will allow basic classes to actually compete with scion classes in "demanding content"

and:

You will have players that say that you can play whatever class you want to clear just about any content which is true, but some basic classes will never compete with scion classes in some of the more demanding content in terms of damage output and clear times. This is based on players considered to be of equal caliber of their respective classes.

You followed up with:

There's absolutely no content that exists that you cannot do with a non Scion class and not do well with. Please do not equate ease of use as power.

They didn't say play scion or go home nor this at any point.

@Knight-Raime

These posts just show your ignorance about classes. "Fi/Et as well" - If you understood Fi then you would understand that the primary weapon of Fi is DS. Fi/Et does not work in optimal play for the sole reason that its damage multiplier for DS specifically is much lower than that of Hu sub.

Fi/Et focuses on Knuckle and TD alone, arguably the best Fi/Et player in the game is Neek who is very vocal about his opinions on the class and balance. It seems for every experienced Fighter player explaining why the class has issues there is another 5 who don't really understand the class and will refuse to accept the clear hierarchy of classes in this game.

The opinion regarding Fighter balance is generally agreed upon even in the JP community. Fighter has not kept up in any content of the game in a long time, it has no noticeable endless scores, TA times, it cannot solo the raid bosses faster than other classes and suffers even more greatly in mobbing heavy content. If your argument is that a good Fi/Et can keep up with an average level player of another class then yes you'd be right. To say Fi/Et can "more than keep up" is ridiculous, there is no proof of this as it holds records in absolutely no piece of content and has not for the last 2 years.

If you don't want to use endless as a metric for measurement then what are you basing it off of? TA? Raid boss solos? Either way Fighter holds records in none (in fact, it isn't even close). Endless is used as a measurement because it demonstrates the clear flaw in classes, endless 2 even more-so. It tests raw damage in stages that focus on nothing more than raw sandbag damage, stages such as volcano are heavily focused on mobbing with enemies that are split apart. Either way it's not the perfect measurement but it's the best available in a casually orientated game, Rena is currently the best JP Fighter in the game and holds one of the highest endless 2 scores for the class at around 55mil while simultaneously holding one of the highest Etoile scores at 120mil+ despite having significantly more hours as a Fighter than Etoile.

  • Kyo. Official title: Angry 3 lap Fighter main

The point of this post which "Which Scion Class Do You Think Is Best"

The point was not:

  1. Scion classes are better than base classes.
  2. Base classes are better than Scion classes.
  3. Scion classes used as subclasses.

We're supposed to be comparing the scion classes to each other and contributing to which ones we think are strongest amongst them.

So why are ya'll arguing over this other stuff?

"You will have players that say that you can play whatever class you want to clear just about any content which is true, but some basic classes will never compete with scion classes in some of the more demanding content in terms of damage output and clear times. This is based on players considered to be of equal caliber of their respective classes. Obviously the biggest factor will be how good the player is, but if you say that a basic class can compete with a scion class in Eternal Rondo based on effort alone then you're blatantly full of it."

Yeah, looks like @Knight-Raime didn't read that clearly. Play any class you want to but just know that there is definitely a bias towards Scion classes being overall better in demanding content, not casual content that anyone can play at their own pace.

There is a reason why Endless Quests are brought into factor while talking about actual overall game balance and just because players ignore it doesn't mean the quest doesn't exist. They may avoid the quest for reasons such as it's not appealing to them, drops aren't that worthwhile(currently worth it if you have a group that can 1 lap Rondo because of how often you'll get 8 slotted Profound weapons which are easy meseta right now), get demotivated from seeing their score after trying once and not learning the quest properly and therefore thinking it's complete shit, etc. These quests test the following of a class: Mobility, enemy tracking, the area of effect attacks and what types of range they have, PP efficiency, burst damage, consistent damage and this is especially against bosses that will actually fight back, and much more but listing every single thing is going to be a waste of time.

Scion classes definitely win overall in these categories uncontested. If you are going to argue Fighter is better than Scion classes in these departments overall and can "compete" you are clearly the ignorant one.

Since you also mentioned Fi/Et you should know that Fi/Hu has stronger double saber damage output because of a lack of modifiers from the /Et that benefit Kamaitachi which they are about to buff on the JP version for which NA/global will get AND the better super armor skill for double sabers. Fi/Et is certainly the way to go with Knuckles with how pp efficient it becomes and doesn't sacrifice damage. Twin Daggers benefit from Fi/Et and Fi/Hu(or /Lu) differently. -With /Et your twin dagger PAs will be much more PP efficient and just having the overall damage reduction without sacrificing damage either. -With /Hu(or/Lu) you have the option of making twin daggers that allows you to take hits to regenerate PP and heal it off with your attacks. In this case you will barely bother with normal attacking and just keeping on spamming PAs without worry of dying nor PP management issues. This can't be done with /Et because lifesteal would only heal you by 1 per hit done due to damage balancer, and you're going to proc Overload Safeguard if you keep trying that.

Edit: Well this post looked better in the preview. I can't be asked to deal with forum posting anymore.

Man this thread got heated. I think Luster looks the strongest but I’ll be playing Etoile because floaty class but it also looks really freakin’ strong.

I will definitely be replacing most of my classes with Scion classes

@Milranduil

It might be a low bar but I don't see that as a problem. In my opinion players tend to exist in one of two groups. Those who care for min max and those who don't.

I exist in the latter. And it was my understanding that the game towards "end game" becomes more of an action game rather than an rpg one. Meaning it's how well you play that matters more than what you are using.

So this is why I don't particularly sign onto the "scions are superior" camp. I haven't argued scion class capabilities once. Merely that non scion classes are capable of competing and still hold value in some cases.

Finally I've no idea if the people I've talked to on here are jp or NA. All I do know is that I've seen people try to use endless quests as a point of balance when speaking on the design quality of a class. And pretty much everyone including the persons content that was being posted went out of their way to denounce endless as normal content. So it shouldnt be used to determine such things.

@The-Raven

Bad choice or no the intention of the bolded statement and being directed to it is to focus the conversation. Once that part has been dealt with for both sides moving to other aspects of the conversation at large can be tackled. I can admit that I could've worded that better but still achieved that goal.

Regardless. I am aware of what they said. That doesn't change my take away from the statement they made. You can have the best of intentions with whatever you manage to type and people still walk away with a misunderstanding.

If that's not the intended message from their response then fine. I can accept blame for misinterpreting it. However I would like to point out that that I didn't blame them for that. I merely tried to post a response to anyone else who mightve walked away from their response with similar thoughts to my own.