Hero is a disappointment

@Jamesmor You’re free to assume anything since my comment wasn’t to invalidate the statistic in the first place nor say Hr wasn’t popular but to expose your claims. Which are false.

Also, to expand on why so other non-JP players don’t have a misinterpretation about it and spread misinformation they saw from here to elsewhere, when what others say who haven’t really looked/understood at the sources themselves.

So it goes back to my comment of me explaining hr’s popularity, but also giving insight on what’s actually popular when you start getting near end game.

Your claims were basically trying to explain HR’s popularity by referencing other successor’s design but ignore that if you actually filter out players and their main class (without factoring alt mules used for dailies), you will see that Ph and even Et outnumbers Hr.

Such as you claimed:

@Knight-Raime what I mean is that Sega tried with the other Scion classes to replicate what they did with Hero and weren't able to do it, that's why Hero is the most popular of the Scion classes while the other 2 became more popular to use as subclasses

They didn’t try to replicate what they did with hero, Hr was again, experimental concept that they decided to not follow to its entirety because of many obvious reasons, and it is of no relation as to why Ph or Et were popular as sub-classes.

Ph, Et and Lu subs were made to balance classes, Ph was a huge QoL for base classes, Et’s release help bring out unexpected class combos, while Lu sub helped make gs relevant for current content. So these successor classes became popular as sub because the sub-class skills that came with these classes offered as much or even more bonuses for a class or a niche that helps with survivability or a variant build. But it did not cause these successors to be less popular than hr when as individual class themselves were as popular if not more than hr.

You can do any endgame content on JP and see how many Hr you actually run to compared to the numerous Ph, Et, Lu on average across all those contents. Outside of daily activities such as FQs, you rarely see Hr at all.

To further explain why Hr’s popularity for daily alts is that Hr’s tmg kit offers braindead aoe kiting as you never have an actual need to stop. This makes the average run faster as you can clear your 20 mobs as you move towards the final area, as compare to the other were you may need stop to recover PP for movement PA/techs. With the current gear status on JP far exceeds that of the daily contents so all classes one shots nonetheless, but hr just makes it more feasible because its offer options that favors even faster run since running dailies on 3+ character can be a chore.

@Knight-Raime True, but the potential is still there imo. Yeah, I'm hoping NGS is more solid overall (and I already think PSO2 is pretty solid as is).

@SalutexMO this class is just too hard for you, i suggest to try every class and find the right one that suit you rather than just jump into one that is unusable without skills

I feel like phantom will be the same story lol

@Kitsunefox412 Nope, Hero is only the worst of the best of that makes any sense. Hero is easily the worst of of the successor classes but that’s like saying taking the bronze in the Olympics means you’re awful. Hero is still very good compared to every base class. Phantom on the other hand easily outclasses many other classes, in JP Phantom is the most popular mained class with I believe 1/4 of the playerbase being Phantom mains. Phantom is also one the best subclasses too outclassing many other subclasses.

@NotWhoUThink Phantom outclasses many other classes if people play properly and have atleast 200pp

@SeriPSO2

So my argument is that hero influenced the design of PH and ET. This is because Hero introduced natural fluidity with the kit and it's less for lack of a better word janky/dated design wise compared to the original (pre summoner/braver) classes. Hero and forward is a lot simpler tree wise and generally flows better from a combat perspective. Second all successor classes have a "dodge counter" and "gauge" to fill up as part of their gameplay.

I'm very well aware that hero is still in a bubble of it's own due to the emphasis on weapon swapping via PA's and it not being subclass capable. I was merely trying to point out that there are similarities in some of the mechanics. So it's fair to extrapolate that hero's design had some level of influence on other successor classes. Also I've heard conflicting statements about how popular Hr is at end game EP6. So you'll forgive me if I don't take your statement about them being scarce as objective fact. I know why Hr is popular for alts and have been aware of such since Hr launch for Global.

@NotWhoUThink The reason Ph is popular is due to how feasible the class is to play compared to Hr, Et, Lu and all the base classes too. In addition to their kit leaning towards tech and the utilization of techs. The starting curve for Ph is lower than the rest, so that meant there wasn't much effort needed to even do a moderate amount of dps. It's when you try to perform at higher level of gameplay such as speedruns is when you'll have to think outside the box a bit.

@Knight-Raime The thing people tend to come to the misconception of hr being the influential factor, but either doesn't know or ignore that the Hero is just based on the ideas of what makes a successor class, as successors were a combination of ideas/elements from already existing classes and putting them into one class, which you're attributing to:

  • Fast pace and being able to constantly attack
  • Simpler skill tree (because you're dealing with multiple weapons here)
  • Utilization of multiple weapons type
  • Excel in close/range combat
  • Their own unique Finishers
  • Their own unique gimmick (high dmg multipliers, faster tech casting/mark buidling, damage reduction, etc...)

And a reminder that PSO2 went through different staffs/directors during its time. By the time in late EP5, it had a new director, who is the currently one that fixed most of the damage EP5 left and also, he took a different approach when it came to the rest of the successors. My comment had no implications nor deny that Hero had no influence, but rather was to clarify that Hero ended up more or less an experiment to see what worked and didn't work for successors in general, hence my quote:

They didn’t try to replicate what they did with hero, Hr was again, experimental concept that they decided to not follow to its entirety because of many obvious reasons

As point stated, the rest of the successors classes did not follow Hero to the T but minor aspect were applicable to any design (such as having a skill for general dmg multiplier or having a Time Finisher).

I did mentioned Ph, Et, and Lu were design entirely different, unlike being designed as a main class, they were designed initially as sub-classes in mind while still retaining the play-style that's ideal to what a successor should have, this explains why they're so popular because they were the "fix" to balance base classes to catch up in content with successors.

When these classes revolve around an idea, despite their kit being entirely different, many basic functionalities similar shared between them. So your mention of gauge and step-counters (Et doesn't not have dodge counters but counter/parries, Lu also has a form of both step-counter/counter as well) would be a misattribution of Hero's influence when it was initially planned for successors to have as they are an amalgamation of base classes and their aspects/quirks altogether. Also, gauge system were used as it was cemented system used to designed for an attack, changes the nature of a PA and/or a boon. It'll be hard-pressed to utilize a different system to manage these design when the prior already handles it well enough.

I knew you were going to get shit for this as soon as I read the title, but I agree. It feels like it doesn't know what it wants to be. But yeah, personal preference. For the way I like to play, it isn't fun at all. I don't have a problem with anyone who likes it, I just don't have any personal attachment to it. Some turd tried to gitgudsplain me I didn't like it because I didn't know the combos as if that would magically make it more interesting to play. And that's really what it boils down to. If you're not a person who enjoys cookie cutter combat and classes that thinly try to do a little bit of everything, it has nothing to offer. I know people will talk shit, but again, I'm glad if anyone else likes it. Go nuts.

@SeriPSO2

Do you happen to have some sort of source of dev comments on the design of successor classes? Because it sounds like you're saying that they already had an idea of what successor classes were supposed to be. Where as it was my understanding (and this is due to me not being ultra familiar with JP. I didn't get very far with JP,) that hero was supposed to be the pinnacle class and the one that everyone was going to switch to eventually. People didn't like this so the devs not only rebalanced the prior classes but also attempted to make other successor classes based on the aspects that worked from hero.

I would really like to see a source or comment about the following classes were being designed as subclasses rather than main classes as that's a very interesting statement.

@TQuinTV said in Hero is a disappointment:

I knew you were going to get shit for this as soon as I read the title, but I agree. It feels like it doesn't know what it wants to be. But yeah, personal preference. For the way I like to play, it isn't fun at all. I don't have a problem with anyone who likes it, I just don't have any personal attachment to it. Some turd tried to gitgudsplain me I didn't like it because I didn't know the combos as if that would magically make it more interesting to play. And that's really what it boils down to. If you're not a person who enjoys cookie cutter combat and classes that thinly try to do a little bit of everything, it has nothing to offer. I know people will talk shit, but again, I'm glad if anyone else likes it. Go nuts.

I agree 💯

@Knight-Raime said in Hero is a disappointment:

@SeriPSO2

Do you happen to have some sort of source of dev comments on the design of successor classes? Because it sounds like you're saying that they already had an idea of what successor classes were supposed to be. Where as it was my understanding (and this is due to me not being ultra familiar with JP. I didn't get very far with JP,) that hero was supposed to be the pinnacle class and the one that everyone was going to switch to eventually. People didn't like this so the devs not only rebalanced the prior classes but also attempted to make other successor classes based on the aspects that worked from hero.

What you're mentioning were the ideas of Hamasaki and Sakai.

Successor was originally named "advanced" class, with Hero being its first. The state of endgame was shifting towards more intricate level of play, hence Advanced classes were designed solely to be used for those endgame contents. So yes, they wanted people to shift towards Hero when it was released, but the main intent was that they wanted people to move from base classes to advanced classes. Which Hero's only the start as they had more planned for the next 5 years after.

As Hamasaki said in an interview about Advanced class and their design:

The reason for implementing it as an advanced class is that even if you create a high-performance action that has changed significantly from the past, if you assume that it is an advanced class, you can easily recognize it as an existence that sets it apart from existing classes. Classes that were newly introduced in the past were also modest in performance when they were first implemented.

His intent on advanced classes were to replace base classes, hence the idea of having use of all 3 attack type on top of multitude of elements that these classes will have to overshadow base class...Which it did.

As an earlier interview with EP5 Sakai:

Sakai : It can only be said that there is a problem with the development system. The bottleneck is that the actions are all different from the regular class, and it takes time to make each one. Under the current system, one class was the limit, and I was relieved because I had been accepted to add one class so far.

Hero was only the first one they were able to do due to their current circumstances. Hamasaki also mentioned that if more successor classes were created, the concept of how they created Hero would stay. But by then due to the performance of the EP 5 team, the director was changed to YSOK leading EP 6, who had a different approach towards the advance class which he later renamed to what JP now refer to as "successors". Which is why I said Hero was an experimental concept that was never follow to its entirety because of the idea that created it was far different to that of what successors were designed.


I would really like to see a source or comment about the following classes were being designed as subclasses rather than main classes as that's a very interesting statement.

This is an auto-translation of the interview with YSOK (current director) but it is suffice to answer your request regarding how Ph and successors after that were designed:

Compared to heroes, phantoms are characterized by a battle style centered on technique. While it is difficult to operate, it is said that it will demonstrate high combat power if it can be mastered. Subclasses cannot be set, but they can be set as subclasses of regular classes.

The target for this phantom is a 20% main class ratio of LV75 or higher. It is expected that about 50% will be transferred from heroes with LV75 or higher, and about 20% will be transferred from each of Braver, Ranger, and Force. It is said that this adjustment will be continued in the future. It seems that he is aware that he can coexist with the previous classes.

Ph was made to be sub-classed first to synergizes with a few of the base classes, that way player ratios wouldn't lean so heavily towards hero only. Even without this interview, it was evident just looking at the Ph's skill tree...for example is quite different to that Hero's. Yes, it's closely similar but in the grand scheme of things, Ph's skills overall were applicable towards any class, Hero have very little in their skill tree that could be used by other classes.

So successors were made to not overshadow base class but to keep them up to par with the contents being released. Unlike how Hero and the idea of advanced classes were intended to make base classes obsolete. The core design of both differ from one to another.

@SeriPSO2

I appreciate the links and well written response. This was very informative. Thank you very much.

@Kitsunefox412 I played on the JP servers when we had Phantoms and etoli(???? not sure if that is how it is spelled) and in my opinion Phantoms where over powered as heck (at least using a rifle). I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing since things where semi translated with ARK Tweaker (and I was just winging it when I was playing on the JP servers) and I was dealing 100-400k normal attacks, and upwards to over 1 million damage with my specials. I think I topped almost 10 million with all the buffs and weak bullet debuffs on a boss.

For Phantom vs. Hero, Phantoms are much easier to learn since I just mained with my rifle, however I'm more proficient with the Hero class, and I understand that I need to constantly be switching weapons to quickly increase my Hero Boost which has made the Hero class much more powerful to me.