Fellwyrm is terribly designed

@Miraglyth said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

@REEStrikes said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

it felt like the AOE fireballs that rain from the sky has a lingering hitbox on them.

There's definitely something going on that I haven't fully understood yet.

Firstly, some of the attacks like those AOE fireballs. If I use Blinding Sidestep to iframe through those I know it works because it activates Bouncer's shiny new level 85 skill (Dodge Auto Field) and gives me both of my fields. But I also get hit!

So I'm both dodging and being hit at the same time, or very close together. If it's the former, part of these attacks are hitting through iframes. Or if it's the latter, it's an attack that does multiple hits in very quick succession which means the timing to iframe through them is tighter than it's been for previous bosses.

I haven't fought it enough to have worked out which yet. But I'm pretty sure no other boss is quite like this.


As for the dragon's mobility itself... yeah, it's a bit of a nuisance. My main problem it is feels like it's impossible to either attack or even lock on to the right parts.

Even if the closest part of its body is a weak spot (blue or purple) and I'm facing it in the center of the camera, using the sword's PA or Gran Wave will often ignore it entirely and send me careening off to an armoured part I don't want to hit and even often into the path of an attack I was previously not in the path of. The same with lock-on. It just feels way less predictable and reliable than other bosses. I haven't struggled with controlling my character this much since Mining Base 3 where Gran Wave would always glue me to the nearest red energy wall.

Maybe it's not helped by this boss moving more than most? I don't know. It probably doesn't help, but I'm having that issue even when the dragon is standing still. The only time I can really attack the part I want to attack is when it's in the air and I can alternate normal attacks and the PA of the Laconium Sword while locked onto its head. For everything else I'm fighting the UI as much as I'm fighting the dragon and that's not proving to be very much fun.

Fellwyrm definitely seems like he was made with the intention people only playing the hyper mobile Hero in mind so every other class really suffers with actually trying to hit the boss in certain phases while also having to be mobile to dodge attacks and some classes really suffer most notably Force and Techer who need to be nearly immobile (in some cases actually immobile) to reach their full effect.

The Laconium Sword should only really be used for breaking the seals. For those who don't know how to use for that purpose, charge the Laco PA until you notice your stance change, then hit the seal to break it. It doesn't really do a whole lot of DPS, so I generally only use it to break seals, then put it away after seals are dealt with. Generally let a Techter use a Laco, since their role in the fight isn't DPS.

In the Black Dragon variant, set a specific party member as the dedicated Laco user, since you only get 1 at a time until the end of the fight. Always be at the ready for when a part breaks to move on to break the other seals. Black Dragon used to have a death cap on JP when it first run for the first few months; after 3 deaths, party fails. Thankfully that's not the case anymore.

Everyone else's role is to DPS, and survive. Learn the dragon's patterns, dodge or block the large AOE attacks, and use mobility PAs/Techs to edge closer to the dragon. For a tech based class, the Charge Parry ring skill (or Defense Techniques) is a must. Also, for forces, Ilbarta will be your friend. Make sure to allocate some points into Ice Tree. It wont be as easy hitting it with Gizonde.

Otherwise, this battle is mainly built for Hero class, with its high mobility, dodge counter, and range attacks. Learn what works for your class when you fight it. I still have fun fighting this as I did on JP.

@Jay6x said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

For those who don't know how to use for that purpose, charge the Laco PA until you notice your stance change, then hit the seal to break it.

Alternatively watch as your character decides to be hilariously insubordinate and turns 90 degrees to charge into a part of the dragon that doesn't even have a seal...

@Miraglyth I shouldn't have to mention to actually TARGET the spot you need to aim at, right? ;_;

@Jay6x said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

@Miraglyth I shouldn't have to mention to actually TARGET the spot you need to aim at, right? ;_;

Dude, the targeting/lock-on system in this game sucks so much which I found the Imposing Iron Assault really highlights this problem. Most of the time the soft lock-on is better than actually locking on which is saying a lot.

@NotWhoUThink

Fine let me actually respond to you without joking about how i got a ban warning for saying that to someone who also complained about something on DAY 1 and not even a few hours in.

I don't know who designed him but whoever did certainly doesn't know how to actually design a boss.

The first half of ep5 was made with only hero in mind. It's very apparent and something that the playerbase didn't agree with. The result was a whole lot of balance and revisions to the older classes, and an incomplete story and quests.

He is near constantly mobile making many attacks extremely hard to hit,

Again, was made with hero in mind. However, the only real reason why he moves so much is because whoever has aggro is moving too much. If you have aggro and stay in front of him, he doesn't actually move that much. This boss also makes people use moves that are quick and short. But if you don't like it, don't worry since no one else liked it either and every next boss hardly moves.

his high health

His hp is fine.

combined with also near constant damage reduction,

Only because you aren't hitting the marked spots when it's purple. If it's blue then get the sword and break it. The only excuse for this is if your new and don't know the mechanic.

many hard hitting attacks while most them cover a wide area and even some attacks that hit you from across the map,

Learn to dodge and aware of your surroundings? He has VERY OBVIOUS tells for all of his attacks. Stop tunnel visioning and you'll be fine. But if your actual complaint is how much dmg they do... Then stack more hp and defense. Dragon was designed to have high multipliers and low attack, so defense has a much bigger impact than say ult. Also get some fire resist.

Heck ep5 and ep6's meta was to stack hp and def. It's not our fault you all didn't listen to us when we told you to get hp (and def) since the beginning.

The ability to juggle players to death with no counterplay

No bosses does this unless you are next to a wall. Not to mention air reversal is a thing. Stop walking into attacks.

broken hit boxes (attacks that shouldn't connect do anyways with no chance of counterplay)

Again, stop walking into things.

and to top it all off terrible rewards.

I agree, his rewards are shit.

I just have to ask why? Why was he designed in such a way to be anti-fun?

Maybe because you haven't even spent the time to learn how the fight works. He is a great boss that actually tests your knowledge on the game and your skills. It's a shame they decided to move to a "hit this sandbag" approach for bosses.

This battle can be learned. You just have to be willing to try it again until you git gud get it down. Even the second fight can be finished under 8 min, assuming everyone knows their roles, and at least one person knows how to Laco.

pso20201007_163814_000.png

@Jay6x said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

This battle can be learned. You just have to be willing to try it again until you git gud get it down. Even the second fight can be finished under 8 min, assuming everyone knows their roles, and at least one person knows how to Laco.

pso20201007_163814_000.png

I'm not saying it can't be learned, I did and can manage to complete both Fellwyrms. The problem is how tedious and broken the fight feels, if you keep playing enough and pay attention to the details during the fight you'll notice the fight isn't very well designed.

@Reilet said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

@NotWhoUThink
The first half of ep5 was made with only hero in mind. It's very apparent and something that the playerbase didn't agree with. The result was a whole lot of balance and revisions to the older classes, and an incomplete story and quests.

I'm actually quite well aware of this however they certainly weren't buffed enough, the JP playerbase shows this with Phantom being 33% of all players. They need to actually need to rework the base classes and not just give them DPS buffs.

Again, was made with hero in mind. However, the only real reason why he moves so much is because whoever has aggro is moving too much. If you have aggro and stay in front of him, he doesn't actually move that much. This boss also makes people use moves that are quick and short. But if you don't like it, don't worry since no one else liked it either and every next boss hardly moves.

That is nice to hear.

His hp is fine.

Only because you aren't hitting the marked spots when it's purple. If it's blue then get the sword and break it. The only excuse for this is if your new and don't know the mechanic.

I do in fact know the mechanic. Like I'm fine with his high HP and even some damage reduction (he is a boss after all) but he seems to have an innate damage reduction even when hitting the weak points. With the two combined it's pretty ridiculous.

Learn to dodge and aware of your surroundings? He has VERY OBVIOUS tells for all of his attacks. Stop tunnel visioning and you'll be fine. But if your actual complaint is how much dmg they do... Then stack more hp and defense. Dragon was designed to have high multipliers and low attack, so defense has a much bigger impact than say ult. Also get some fire resist.

It's pretty clear that some of his attacks do have broken hitboxes, there have been plenty of times where his tail still hits me even though I'm clearly out of it's range and not to mention there also seems to be lingering hitboxes on some of his attacks.

Heck ep5 and ep6's meta was to stack hp and def. It's not our fault you all didn't listen to us when we told you to get hp (and def) since the beginning.

That sounds very counter intuitive to having fun. Being forced to conform to a meta is a terrible design which proves my point even further.

No bosses does this unless you are next to a wall. Not to mention air reversal is a thing. Stop walking into attacks.

Using air reversal is actually not the smart thing to do, there are very little I-Frames during air reversal and it's very possible to get hit during it.

Again, stop walking into things.

There are obviously some broken hitboxes with most obvious one being the lingering hitboxes. As a Techer I have to play it smart anyways.

I agree, his rewards are shit.

Something we can agree on at least.

Maybe because you haven't even spent the time to learn how the fight works. He is a great boss that actually tests your knowledge on the game and your skills. It's a shame they decided to move to a "hit this sandbag" approach for bosses.

I've learned very much how the fight actually works in 3 fights, it's not the most difficult fight just tedious and unrewarding. Fellwyrm is way less difficult than any Ultimate Quest boss while being way more rewarding.

The only part I really dislike about the fight is how much he hops around at times. Feel like I get in range to slash his leg a few times and then he spins and jumps across half the arena. Not a big issue in Crimson because it's w/e, but in the rematch it steams my clams.

@Miraglyth At least one of the AoE marker fire attacks is multihit. I Charge Parried that on HU and got around half my bar back. There's definitely not enough overlapping circles to do that since I have a bit less than 200 PP.

I'll be honest and say even as Hero I'm not enjoying it. That is at least not as much as some of the good/great bosses like Luther or second phase Mother.

My first problem is the same problem most big stuff has in this game, the camera and weak spots. Things like locking onto his head and therefore not being able to see his body or the death bubbles below you, or trying to lock onto the weak spots on his ankles and just picking up his feet. When things get big, force you to lock on to hit places, AND require you to watch carefully things have always been wonky. This boss is no exception. If you want me reading snap tells or eating dirt, please let me do that and not force my camera up his nose.

Second there are a few instances where you just die. His ground smash attack that kicks up debris is a prime example. If you get unlucky like I have it can and will one shot you if you get hit on the first attack as it can juggle you into multiple things. Same can happen when he rains down meteors where something gets you then in comes the meteor on the wakeup. Both of these are real questionable.

Other than that its more unremarkable to me than anything. The sword is a cool gimmick if a small one only having two attacks and a block. The flight phase is an annoying time sink along with the mobs at the start. The actual fight is meh. I wont miss it when its gone, although I'm glad it's kicked the abomination known as the Yamato out of rotation even if its not forever.

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@NotWhoUThink said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

Fellwyrm definitely seems like he was made with the intention people only playing the hyper mobile Hero in mind so every other class really suffers with actually trying to hit the boss in certain phases while also having to be mobile to dodge attacks and some classes really suffer most notably Force and Techer who need to be nearly immobile (in some cases actually immobile) to reach their full effect.

Etoile also works too with Dual Saber/Sword, which is meant for Etoile's boss attacking weapon, as it auto-parries/auto-dodges during attacks. (There's also a sound effect that plays when Etoile auto-parries.) Apparently, the Auto-dodge/auto-parry can even parry/dodge attacks that are meant to ignore iframes. (Usually phase transitions/etc.)

I can't see Phantom main fighting it though, because Phantom has a lot of hesitation or stop frames in some of its attacks.

@BronzeAgeBrain said in Fellwyrm is terribly designed:

My first problem is the same problem most big stuff has in this game, the camera and weak spots. Things like locking onto his head and therefore not being able to see his body or the death bubbles below you, or trying to lock onto the weak spots on his ankles and just picking up his feet. When things get big, force you to lock on to hit places, AND require you to watch carefully things have always been wonky. This boss is no exception. If you want me reading snap tells or eating dirt, please let me do that and not force my camera up his nose.

doing this fight a few times I found out that you should not aim in his head unless he is knocked out, unless you are using Summoner that their pets ignore all the body and hit the weakspot directly all other classes won't deal much damage in his head and like you said you can't see a thing while aiming there, also to deal with the other weak spots get closer aim there and use Hero mobility tricks to get away, remember that you can teleport using Talis