If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!

@Akakomuma Any attempt to fix the problem is a good fix in my book, even if it's a band-aid. According to these threads, several people have left because they can't go below the cap, so I'd say it's already pretty effective.

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

And the reason I'm still correcting you is because you seem to not understand that what I described in my example is not "100% player performance and 0% game mechanic" as you say and think. [snip] I'll give you this link with technical details about a game I used to play [snip] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he02vJvKaRs

In all honesty, all this time I had no idea you weren't mistaken. Your first reply was "I used to play FPS competitively (many) years ago and frame rate affecting one or more aspects was the norm in that kind of games." To be blunt, if you mention frame rate affecting FPSs to almost any gamer without the kind of example you have now given, they will surely expect you mean the impact it has on players' performance.

It's... a little frustrating that it took the conversation this long to clarify the intent. But now it has been, I can definitely accept FPSs have had Anga Jabroga moments too, and that video is indeed a good example of a similar behaviour.


@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

@Miraglyth said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

I don't think SG is readily available for free.

Let's have a look at the free options:

  • 3 Character slots
  • Salon passes (that are given for free, I have so many I don't know what to do with them)
  • Free SG from login, campaigns, keys (magatsu), fashion, casino and so on.

Character slots and salon passes don't give SG.

I feel this sub-discussion is in danger of getting caught in another misunderstanding. To try and prevent that this time, allow me to be explain: Your question about "something readily obtainable" was in response to my description of PSO2's rankings and competitive elements that "involve vast Star Gem rewards".

Clearly, the question is not asking about star gems, so can I request for it to be asked again with the detail of what you're asking about?


@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

@Miraglyth said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Mostly I want closure so the community can stop turning potential new players away, and the simplest path to that would be an official statement of why various changes were presumably necessary so we can understand and move on.

I agree here, but It's not just the community. The censorship "drama" has been amplified by popular reviewers on youtube too and it's driving away players from this game and possibly from NGS too. At this point, I think no reason would satisfy either side and it's safe to assume that SEGA will not explain their decision either.

They changed Slave to Raven without saying a word (a very silly change, whatever the reason, in my opinion), not caring at all for the (initial) confusion they caused.

All in all, there's more bad PR coming from the lack of communication with the community than from the censorship itself.

Pretty much all of that makes sense yeah. Unfortunately YouTube commentary and sensationalist written articles have all been under the umbrella of "gaming journalism" (and arguably in some countries, joining adversarial broadcast media as "news") that simply chases the biggest outrage to cover because that's the best way to get attention.

That's not to say that some controversies aren't justified, and to relate this back to Sega I will always believe with reference to the known sales numbers that the Denuvo debacle covered in YouTube and written articles harmed the sales of Sonic Mania on PC purely on the basis that Denuvo is anti-consumer.

But whether or not a controversy (that is, a damaging media story) is justified, one thing that universally matters is the benefit of PR and managing a community. Consider written articles about controversies: What looks better, when a company responds with a reasonable explanation for their actions, or "We invited the company to comment but they have not responded." ?

The trouble is that a bad explanation for actions (think EA and trying to rebrand loot boxes as "surprise mechanics") is worse than nothing as it inevitably leads to extending the story with more outraged YouTube videos. And since that has become a pattern in the last few years, any company now not replying at all creates the impression that they could only offer the kind of explanation that they know would do them more harm than good.

It's probably not the case with the PSO2 community management, because as you explain the team don't really explain anything. Not items changing name or losing detailed descriptions, not the lack of Ship 4 or the horrible frame rate in lobbies back on PC's Microsoft Store release, and not whether PC will ever see some of the content that stopped being sold before PC release. Heck, they didn't even tell us the Xbox One version was coming out of beta! So to anyone in the know, a missing explanation isn't anything new and doesn't really tell us anything.

But this doesn't work for prospective future players, as Joe the typical YouTube viewer doesn't know that; all they get to see is multiple videos of "PSO2 is censored!". And it doesn't work for presently-invested players because those who dislike the changes can point to the aforementioned pattern to claim there is no good explanation, and those who approve of them can (and have) come up with their own probably-incorrect explanation while at the same time making topics like this one out of apparent fear that the changes may be reverted one day.

In the end nobody is winning with things as they are. Least of all PSO2.

@ApollosAmour said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

@Akakomuma Any attempt to fix the problem is a good fix in my book, even if it's a band-aid. According to these threads, several people have left because they can't go below the cap, so I'd say it's already pretty effective.

I mean anyone who would leave game either with this being a thing or not being a thing is most likely someone who didn't care about the game in the first place. I'll criticize both sides equally on that front.

I have continued to support this release, already have dropped about 7k on it. I do want them to bring back the option however.

As someone who spends each day coming up with on average at least two new looks and outfits, constantly changing my body size and shape to make all kinds of things and abusing the character creator to make things new and fresh this change does affect me. But no I would never quit a game over it. I just think the decision doesn't actually improve things and only makes things worse.

I can honestly see no benefit to this. FFXIV didn't face backlash on Lalafells and those are even worse since they are based on Kindergarteners. "Originally modeled on a spirited kindergarten-aged boy."

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@Akakomuma

The crowd it draws in, I intentionally don't game FFXIV by the way.

I can honestly see no benefit to this. FFXIV didn't face backlash on Lalafells and those are even worse since they are based on Kindergarteners. "Originally modeled on a spirited kindergarten-aged boy."

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Also known as Potatoes! They've already caused some problems.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/26/17614508/discord-nsfw-final-fantasy-xiv-partner-porn-reddit

@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

They've already caused some problems.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/7/26/17614508/discord-nsfw-final-fantasy-xiv-partner-porn-reddit

And to relate this to my last post, the part of the article that most caught my eye:

A Discord representative issued this statement to Polygon:

@Miraglyth said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

It's... a little frustrating that it took the conversation this long to clarify the intent. But now it has been, I can definitely accept FPSs have had Anga Jabroga moments too, and that video is indeed a good example of a similar behaviour.

That's my fault, indeed. I tried to make an example talking about CTF and strategic spots' reachability tied to frame rate but to someone that never played an FPS game it reasonably may sound like gibberish, sorry.

@Miraglyth said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Clearly, the question is not asking about star gems, so can I request for it to be asked again with the detail of what you're asking about?

Sure. My question was:

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

if you think that something readily obtainable (for free) is such a problem and relevant in a pve game, I guess you think that this game is p2w too?

With "something readily obtainable for free" I obviously meant adjusting the settings, changing the character customization or creating a character with certain height to obtain the same advantage, given the context of the statement which rised my question.

But let's drop it, I think we got an agreement over there and we can move on from this discussion 😌

@Miraglyth said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

It's probably not the case with the PSO2 community management, because as you explain the team don't really explain anything. Not items changing name or losing detailed descriptions, not the lack of Ship 4 or the horrible frame rate in lobbies back on PC's Microsoft Store release, and not whether PC will ever see some of the content that stopped being sold before PC release. Heck, they didn't even tell us the Xbox One version was coming out of beta! So to anyone in the know, a missing explanation isn't anything new and doesn't really tell us anything.

But this doesn't work for prospective future players, as Joe the typical YouTube viewer doesn't know that; all they get to see is multiple videos of "PSO2 is censored!". And it doesn't work for presently-invested players because those who dislike the changes can point to the aforementioned pattern to claim there is no good explanation, and those who approve of them can (and have) come up with their own probably-incorrect explanation while at the same time making topics like this one out of apparent fear that the changes may be reverted one day.

In the end nobody is winning with things as they are. Least of all PSO2.

That's mostly the reason I started posting in this thread.

I'm playing this game because I find it relaxing and the community was not toxic, but what SEGA is doing (and you described it way better than me) is leading to a toxic atmosphere, with trolls on both sides telling each other to quit and angered/frustrated people in the middle.

The problem is that when players really start to quit and the game becomes a barren desert, it affects everyone's experience and I've seen that happen so many times that makes me wonder if we'll ever learn from our mistakes.

Oh well, reading some posts in here I imagined the same people ripping their own eyes while reading the part of SK's IT describing how 11 year old Beverly Marsh and the Losers reinforced their unity with an or*y.

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Oh well, reading some posts in here I imagined the same people ripping their own eyes while reading the part of SK's IT describing how 11 year old Beverly Marsh and the Losers reinforced their unity with an or*y.

SK and child sex. Name a more iconic duo.

On the note of becoming a barren desert, I could slightly see it happening as I've been watching the steam numbers dwindle from launch but it will definitely survive thanks to whales.

@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

SK and child sex. Name a more iconic duo.

Well, SK is one of my favourite readings, it's not like I'm going to stop reading it because of some words nor I would call SK a pedo for what he writes.

For what it matters, I don't even understand those saying that Netflix' Cuties "promotes pedophilia".

@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

On the note of becoming a barren desert, I could slightly see it happening as I've been watching the steam numbers dwindle from launch but it will definitely survive thanks to whales.

You know, I've heard this a lot too. I guess you are aware that whales that keep the game alive are between 0.1% and 2% of the population in many games and if they have no reason to stay (show off their character customization, for example), they'll follow.

Surely it takes more time because of the investment, but it will eventually happen (obviously I'm not saying that all of them will leave).

That doesn't mean the game will "die", but that it will be harder to fill a party and less items available for sale.

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Oh well, reading some posts in here I imagined the same people ripping their own eyes while reading the part of SK's IT describing how 11 year old Beverly Marsh and the Losers reinforced their unity with an or*y.

I guess a good comparison to these threads with that would be that there are people who are OK with it being in the novel but glad it's not in the movies, and people who argue that it's integral to the story and has to be represented regardless. That actually sums most of it up pretty well, haha.

@ApollosAmour said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Oh well, reading some posts in here I imagined the same people ripping their own eyes while reading the part of SK's IT describing how 11 year old Beverly Marsh and the Losers reinforced their unity with an or*y.

I guess a good comparison to these threads with that would be that there are people who are OK with it being in the novel but glad it's not in the movies, and people who argue that it's integral to the story and has to be represented regardless. That actually sums most of it up pretty well, haha.

Actually it's not a good comparison.

This game has no orgy or content that would fall within the x-rated realm and all that was censored is perfectly compatible with its M-rating.

Moreover, its characters do not relate to real children or adults, unless you think that elvish eared people, horned or with robotic body actually exists.

If that's the case, I raise the white flag.

Well, SK is one of my favourite readings, it's not like I'm going to stop reading it because of some words nor I would call SK a pedo for what he writes.

Pedo? Probably not, the way he goes into detail and his focus of children? Definitely weird and not normal.

I guess you are aware that whales that keep the game alive are between 0.1% and 2% of the population in many games and if they have no reason to stay (show off their character customization, for example), they'll follow. Surely it takes more time because of the investment, but it will eventually happen (obviously I'm not saying that all of them will leave).That doesn't mean the game will "die", but that it will be harder to fill a party and less items available for sale.

Could possibly be more but I don't think neither of us have those specific stats. Ultimately I don't think people arguing and censorship is going to turn a whole lot of people away from this game. It might be a small factor but there are plenty of other reasons..... Like announcing NGS for example. Some people would rather just wait for what they believe is going to be the superior game instead of playing a game from 2012.

EDIT - Also just the fact they kind of waited 8 years too late. Lot of massive PSO fans who wanted to play just used the tweaker and refused to look back. They have better and more content. They have no reason to start over on global.

@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Pedo? Probably not, the way he goes into detail and his focus of children? Definitely weird and not normal.

Honestly, he goes into detail with everything to the point of pedantry and not everything he writes focuses around children (The Mist, Needful Things, for eg.) so I don't think it's weird or not normal. But I guess that's a matter of personal taste and opinion.

@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

Could possibly be more but I don't think neither of us have those specific stats. Ultimately I don't think people arguing and censorship is going to turn a whole lot of people away from this game. It might be a small factor but there are plenty of other reasons..... Like announcing NGS for example. Some people would rather just wait for what they believe is going to be the superior game instead of playing a game from 2012.

While we do not have the actual numbers of PSO2, there is an interesting article on this topic you can find here: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php

I agree with you that censorship and people arguing alone aren't enough to drive many players away, but this game has other problems too (lack of communication being one, as I said before) and NGS announcement is surely playing a big role.

But bad repution could affect NGS too as it usually carries over (Nexon should ring a bell).

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

That's my fault, indeed.

In fairness I should have asked for clarification sooner and not got so quickly adversarial. I'm a little too used to how conversation in this topics tends to go, but that's no excuse. 😅

Rather, it's nice to see that heated discussions in this topic of all places can calm down on their own. Looking around it'd be nice to see some more of that.


@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

With "something readily obtainable for free" I obviously meant adjusting the settings, changing the character customization or creating a character with certain height

Yeah, I'm not sure how those relate to P2W aspects, I'm afraid. Let's move on.


@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

You know, I've heard this a lot too. I guess you are aware that whales that keep the game alive are between 0.1% and 2% of the population in many games and if they have no reason to stay (show off their character customization, for example), they'll follow.

Yeah, like it or not any multiplayer game with this kind of scope and public interaction needs to maintain a feeling of being well-populated. This is why we went from Universe's setup of having dozens of lobby areas (even separated areas within the same locations) to the four we now have in PSO2.

Free players in volume are useful for keeping games in this segment filled. The F2P model isn't to get them invested until they spend money, it's to keep them around so the players who spend the most money do. I hope this isn't coming across as cynical because I mean it in a good way; clearly it's a viable model and with its purposeful focus on sticking to cosmetics for monetised content I feel PSO2 does it well.

But it does mean you can't just say "this is fine so long as it doesn't deter whales". Decisions about content adjustment and community relations need to be all-inclusive.


@Gamers-are-so-oppressed said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

I could slightly see it happening as I've been watching the steam numbers dwindle from launch

I hadn't looked at the numbers for a while, so hearing they'd dwindled I was expecting it to be way worse. Checking now... honestly, it's held up well. If you remember the Microsoft Store launch, we saw a hastily-increased 414 blocks completely full. Fast forward a month and that same block count (prior to gradual reductions) averaged around 30% full. That was a typical launch spike and F2P games should always expect a huge multiple of the eventually stabilised player count early on.

The Steam release peaked at just over 20,000 for 20-30 minutes on the first weekend, but almost two months on its daily peak has still only dipped barely below 10,000 twice. Rather than any kind of decline, that's mostly indicative of a reduced launch spike as many of the players likely played (or at least tried to play) the game on Microsoft Store first.

Of course this is just concurrent players. As time passes, many players who are still active will be playing a little less each day or at least more efficiently to keep on top of missions and campaigns. That reduces concurrent player counts without reducing active daily player counts.

To make an obvious point, you have to expect that the 10-12k peak and the 5k trough have almost no overlap. If you wanted a more realistic number of daily players, make an estimate of the average daily playtime of all players and multiply the 7.5-8k average concurrent by that amount. So if the average player plays for 2 hours each day, you're looking at 90k-96k daily players. Suddenly things seem pretty good.

Also of course, that's just Steam, which won't include the players from Xbox One, Tweaker or the Microsoft Store (which some people probably still use if it hasn't stopped working for them).

Ultimately I suspect some of those players never gave the game a second chance on Steam and had it launched on Steam first we might be seeing better numbers long-term, but it's what it is. Episode 5 will arrive soon which might increase the numbers for a time (personally I don't expect much), but they seem to be committed to delivering New Genesis globally and I expect an actual marketing push at that time compared to how quiet the Xbox One and PC releases were. Perhaps NGS is why that was quiet.

Back to the topic though, whatever the players numbers are it probably doesn't make sense to do things that will directly lower them, accelerate their decline or prevent their growth. Allowing a heated "censorship" debate to divide the player base to drag on might count as such a thing.

@condor said in If they lift the censorship and height restriction I will quit the game!:

But bad repution could affect NGS too as it usually carries over (Nexon should ring a bell).

This for sure, the effort is honestly probably better spent lobbying ahead now for NGS to be on par versus trying for PSO2.