Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?

Tbh the poll is misleading, since it's literally just a slider moving down 10 more points. It makes it seem as if there's more customization than that at stake.

I voted, but because the forum is so small and the people that want it restored are the vocal minority who hover around these threads, it's always going to be more of a petition than a poll.

@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I checked some of the commonly used proxies currently on proxy lists and a non-small amount of votes on the "yes" side (and a smaller amount on the no side) were done with proxies, which means one person voting many times.

I'm curious about this. Firstly strawpoll provides configuration options to block this kind of activity per poll and this poll is set to use them:

ef4e01a3-65c8-406f-a65b-f79cf9916530-image.png

Secondly strawpoll provides APIs but not to the extent of exposing details of individual votes - let alone voters which would betray its stated intent of anonymised voting. Defeating its advertised proxy detection (which is probably somewhat achievable especially to affect polls with relatively few votes like this one) is one thing. But accessing data it is trying not to expose should raise severe questions about its security that matter way more than trivial content alterations in an online game.


@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

Oh yeah, and have a bath-scene in which two teenage girls grope a pre-pubescent little boy in the shower.

Lines like this really express how some people have just taken to openly making stuff up because they expect it'll help fulfil their goal of getting topics they don't like deleted fast enough that nobody will call them out on it.

@Miraglyth said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I checked some of the commonly used proxies currently on proxy lists and a non-small amount of votes on the "yes" side (and a smaller amount on the no side) were done with proxies, which means one person voting many times.

I'm curious about this. Firstly strawpoll provides configuration options to block this kind of activity per poll and this poll is set to use them:

ef4e01a3-65c8-406f-a65b-f79cf9916530-image.png

Secondly strawpoll provides APIs but not to the extent of exposing details of individual votes - let alone voters which would betray its stated intent of anonymised voting. Defeating its advertised proxy detection (which is probably somewhat achievable especially to affect polls with relatively few votes like this one) is one thing. But accessing data it is trying not to expose should raise severe questions about its security that matter way more than trivial content alterations in an online game.


@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

Oh yeah, and have a bath-scene in which two teenage girls grope a pre-pubescent little boy in the shower.

Lines like this really express how some people have just taken to openly making stuff up because they expect it'll help fulfil their goal of getting topics they don't like deleted fast enough that nobody will call them out on it.

I mean, in the west, you do not get to wash a little kid you are not related to (and that is old enough to wash himself) and the whole thing does not end up with him groping you by accident.

It being an anime trope in Japan does not make it okay when publishing outside Japan.

In the West, this is completely inappropriate and it DOES contain groping, so the fact reduced it to that sentence is simply for convenience, and it is not even that far off.

If you want the Japanese version of games, you better start learning Japanese because they will be censored more and more as time passes and censorship becomes even stricter than it is now.

The gaming world, by 2030, will be quite different than it is today, whether you like it or not.

And i will repeat what i have already said many times before:

It is quite telling, that this level of outrage only ever happens when they censor lolis&co and not when other types of censorship happen.

@IfrianMMO I agree with you, but he's right that it wasn't described accurately. They don't really do much with him iirc, but he does grope both girls on accident and Kohri urges him to keep doing it.

@ApollosAmour said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@IfrianMMO I agree with you, but he's right that it wasn't described accurately. They don't really do much with him iirc, but he does grope both girls on accident and Kohri urges him to keep doing it.

I would argue that attempting to shower an unrelated kid that is quite visibly not okay with it, even if out of embarrassment, does classify as such, and i am pretty much sure Kohri urging him to keep doing it is classified as sexual misconduct with a minor at best and assault at worst, which is even worse.

@IfrianMMO I just meant about them groping him. The emphasis was mostly on him groping them.

@ApollosAmour said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@IfrianMMO I just meant about them groping him. The emphasis was mostly on him groping them.

I mean, they drag him to the shower and shower him (which requires touching) while he repeatedly asks them to stop and claims he does not want them to, so i am pretty much sure that would be considered groping legally.

Perhaps you are right, however, instead of groping i should have used much harsher words as i am pretty much sure that there are several criminal charges to be had if this was done in the West.

And that´s before we get to her inciting him to keep groping them.

So yeah, i should not have used the word grope, you are right, i should have called it for what it is, which is assault to a minor and inciting a minor to a sexual act, (Fondling of breasts) which is a sexual offense.

Much better i guess? My bad.

@IfrianMMO I wouldn't call Al unrelated. He treats Hitsugi as an older sister, and she is technically his mother since she was the one who created the avatar that is his body. He is outright accepted into the family as the story progresses. It was more the blind fold that he was uncomfortable with than the actual bathing; he settles down after getting his hair washed. In the third scene, he is perfectly fine with having a bath with the guys as he doesn't need to wear a blind fold. Also, while Kohri is well Kohri, Hitsugi calls her out on it, repeatedly.

@Miraglyth said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I checked some of the commonly used proxies currently on proxy lists and a non-small amount of votes on the "yes" side (and a smaller amount on the no side) were done with proxies, which means one person voting many times.

I'm curious about this. Firstly strawpoll provides configuration options to block this kind of activity per poll and this poll is set to use them:

ef4e01a3-65c8-406f-a65b-f79cf9916530-image.png

Secondly strawpoll provides APIs but not to the extent of exposing details of individual votes - let alone voters which would betray its stated intent of anonymised voting. Defeating its advertised proxy detection (which is probably somewhat achievable especially to affect polls with relatively few votes like this one) is one thing. But accessing data it is trying not to expose should raise severe questions about its security that matter way more than trivial content alterations in an online game.

Proxies change your IP address, VPNs are undetectable, and captcha blocks bots, not users.

If you view the results page on an IP that has already voted, it has a checkmark next to the one that was selected by that IP.

Furthermore, they don't need an API - You can make a python script with a simple post request to send automated votes, as outlined here and used here

@Archetype-Luna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@IfrianMMO I wouldn't call Al unrelated. He treats Hitsugi as an older sister, and she is technically his mother since she was the one who created the avatar that is his body. He is outright accepted into the family as the story progresses. It was more the blind fold that he was uncomfortable with than the actual bathing; he settles down after getting his hair washed. In the third scene, he is perfectly fine with having a bath with the guys as he doesn't need to wear a blind fold. Also, while Kohri is well Kohri, Hitsugi calls her out on it, repeatedly.

I am sure that "He considers her as family" and "But we called her out on it" would hold in a court of law if their behavior/the incident was reported.

The fact that you guys absolutely refuse to even understand why this is not appropriate in the West has since long stopped being shocking, but it is nonetheless disappointing.

This is not even about "You are a horrible person for liking this" this is literally "Can you understand why this is not commonly accepted in the West?"

And if you do, then let it go, they censored it for a reason.

If you literally cannot understand even in the most basic sense of the expression, why this is inappropriate, then i do not know what to tell you.

@IfrianMMO No you're good, I just wanted to let you know.

@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@Miraglyth said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I checked some of the commonly used proxies currently on proxy lists and a non-small amount of votes on the "yes" side (and a smaller amount on the no side) were done with proxies, which means one person voting many times.

I'm curious about this. Firstly strawpoll provides configuration options to block this kind of activity per poll and this poll is set to use them:

ef4e01a3-65c8-406f-a65b-f79cf9916530-image.png

Secondly strawpoll provides APIs but not to the extent of exposing details of individual votes - let alone voters which would betray its stated intent of anonymised voting. Defeating its advertised proxy detection (which is probably somewhat achievable especially to affect polls with relatively few votes like this one) is one thing. But accessing data it is trying not to expose should raise severe questions about its security that matter way more than trivial content alterations in an online game.

Proxies change your IP address, VPNs are undetectable, and captcha blocks bots, not users.

If you view the results page on an IP that has already voted, it has a checkmark next to the one that was selected by that IP.

Furthermore, they don't need an API - You can make a python script with a simple post request to send automated votes, as outlined here and used here

That's why strawpoll is too unreliable. It's too easy to skew the results, which have jumped dramatically both ways across multiple polls out of the blue. Lurkers can't account for all of it.

@IfrianMMO Hitsugi is claiming responsibility for Al, she is taking care of him as of he was family, she isn't exploiting him in any sexual way. So no, I don't see this scene as inappropriate or sexually harassing/abusing Al in anyway. Hitsugi is quite literally raising Al, and taking responsibility for him.

Far worse scenes in other media make it to the west.

@IfrianMMO

I find the fact that you're trying to bring in real world laws here for this fictional situation to be quite intriguing as the implications of it touch on a few moral and philosophical questions along with some legal ones.

First off, let's establish what exactly Al is and what he isn't.

Story wise, Al was created by a combination of 3 things, Aether (from Hitsugi's avatar), Photons (from the MC) and a dark falz. He isn't actually a human in any way other than his looks in the same way that Mother, Xion and Xiao aren't human. If we try to draw a parallel to our world, Al would be something similar to an android (Hitsugi's avatar) with an advanced A.I (dark falz) that has had it's database corrupted (by MC's photons).

Now if we tried to judge what happens in the story by modern day law we would get quite the interesting result. Since we haven't reached the point where A.I has become complex enough that it is indistinguishable from a human there are currently no laws that govern ethical treatment of one. Likewise, there aren't any laws that govern the ethical treatment of androids. So to the best of my knowledge the only laws that would govern Al would be property laws, in that Al is Hitsugi's PSO2 avatar and is therefore property of either her or Mother (in that Mother created PSO2 ingame and therefore would hold rights to avatars created by it). As such, Hitsugi and/or Mother would have full unrestricted rights over Al and could do pretty much whatever they wanted to him without legal consequence. In fact, the only crime that Hitsugi and Kohori would be charged with is that of theft (in the case that Mother owns Al).

Now of course, this brings up the philosophical question of how Humans should treat things like Androids in the future. Should they be given the same rights as humans or should they remain as the property of humans? Is it ethical to treat an android as property?

But alas, this probably goes far beyond the scope of this discussion. I thank you for bringing it up though, as it certainly gave me something interesting to think about.

@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I mean,

The wording you're looking for is "Let me correct what I said before:"

@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

you do not get to wash a little kid you are not related to (and that is old enough to wash himself) and the whole thing does not end up with him groping you by accident.

I can imagine the premise was that Al didn't know much about anything about the world. Which yes is questionable enough in and of itself (how does someone know what sleeping is but not bathing?), and in some ways makes the scene appear worse perhaps?

But to call out your wording a second time here: It's not about "get to", like it's some kind of opportunity. It's about "need to", after making a point of getting sufficiently dirtied by the shopping trip and Al's cluelessness and lack of known relatives meaning someone has to.

I'm not about to defend an obviously tenuous premise for a slightly re-flavoured hot springs episode, and in calling the trope by name you should understand I agree that's what it is. And my personal take on the first scene at least (I haven't caught up on story quests so I haven't viewed the remaining two beyond spoiler screens in Michelle's sig) is still that it's minor character-building at best so its loss doesn't really affect the experience.

I don't object to complaints about that scene being removed, but unless other removed scenes do contain details of importance I'm certainly not joining them. My last reply was not about that, but that your objectionable and dramatising retelling of what the scene included almost felt like it was intended to stir up argument with the aim to get the topic purged. Case in point:

@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

It is quite telling, that this level of outrage only ever happens when they censor lolis&co and not when other types of censorship happen.

Are you for real right now? With all the outrage over the Raven renaming going on as we speak? Seriously?

Case in point two:

@IfrianMMO said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

and i am pretty much sure Kohri urging him to keep doing it

She does not.

Yet again, this is not a defense. I think Hitsugi immediately following up with criticism of a lacking resistance (her wording) and while we're here your character optionally calling out Xiera for wanting to watch in the first place are the game poorly attempting to excuse matters by saying "Hey we know this is somewhat wrong!"

But still, you need to stop with these misleading descriptions. There is a case to be made for these scenes being unnecessary (way moreso than other actually useful story scenes Global and I understand even JP have also lost with the overstepping simplification of Episodes 1-3) and I do feel loaded inaccurate descriptions of stuff that is removed is harming the credibility of that case more than it is helping.

Now for me to balance my criticisms some:


@Archetype-Luna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

I wouldn't call Al unrelated. He treats Hitsugi as an older sister, and she is technically his mother since she was the one who created the avatar that is his body. He is outright accepted into the family as the story progresses. It was more the blind fold that he was uncomfortable with than the actual bathing...

You know, if the first deleted scene had happened after all of that was established, I have a feeling it would have gone over better. But it happened some time before all of that, so all they (and the player) knew of him by the time it happened was that he was a probably unrelated stranger who had just appeared. I do think that makes it less okay.

Of course if they had changed the scene's placement (which I suspect would have still invited complaint from some people presently complaining, likely from the point that it makes less sense in continuity and that Enga could have done it) it still wouldn't explain Kohri's presence. Added justification of being a pseudo-parent would apply only to Hitsugi, not Kohri.

@Archetype-Luna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

Hitsugi is claiming responsibility for Al, she is taking care of him as of he was family, she isn't exploiting him in any sexual way. So no, I don't see this scene as inappropriate or sexually harassing/abusing Al in anyway. Hitsugi is quite literally raising Al, and taking responsibility for him.

See above.


@Aida-Enna said in Poll: Would you like to have character height restrictions restored?:

Proxies change your IP address, VPNs are undetectable, and captcha blocks bots, not users.

If you view the results page on an IP that has already voted, it has a checkmark next to the one that was selected by that IP.

So you used a known list of known proxy IPs to repeatedly view the page and see where the checkmark was? Makes sense now, thanks. Pretty funny that site advertises its fraudulent vote protection and it doesn't even block such lists itself.