Height Restrictions, Remove or Stay?

Since we are now going into very serious territory, and seems the thread's actual purpose crashed and burned, I'm going to leave this link -->here<--. It's a fairly recent work that explains various things about the relation of fictional stuff and the real life counterpart. It also has various links with further research. An interesting read if you want to understand more on the subject of relating "loli" content to real life crimes.

If you don't want to read it, my super short description of it is that it's a very complicated answer. There's no one-catches-all response to this, and there needs to be a lot more studies on the matter (a task on itself difficult) to even begin to create an actual profile of the issue.

@ZorokiHanuke At one point, in different words, it essentially states that bad people, will do bad things. Which is what I said numerous times. We still shouldn't have to put up with censorship, because x person,or persons, might do y, or z bad things. It's almost as bad as saying we shouldn't fly in planes, or drive cars, because there is a chance we might crash, and die. Its random, and not something that can be accurately predicted, as stated in this shared link. More research will always be needed, because humans aren't robots, and aren't that predictable. Well not all of us anyways. Those that stand in line for the new Apple iPhone each new release, those people are predictable.

@Anarchy-Marine Yeah. I posted that because I agree to what it was written. That the stuff is inconclusive because there's a LOT of data needed. And that data can only be provided by people who do not even want to identify themselves as such. So nobody can plainly say that "loli" causes real life pedophilia, but nobody can say either that it prevents it. Meaning, as far as I understand, that argument is to this date, null.

Oh, and this also reinforces my stance about pro height censors, that they should stand by the censor not with outside data nor laws, but because of their own convictions. And that would give them the best leg to stand on.

@jimpjorps Explain to me why you think everyone wants to screw their MMO character.

@Archetype-Luna said in Height Restrictions, Remove or Stay?:

@IAMCRAIG-0 That is a false equivalency. Just because someone wants to play as a loli/shota type character does not make them a pedophile. If that was the case, then I must be a pedophile because I played as an Elin in Tera; the peolpe who played shai in BDO must also be pedophiles; anyone who plays lalafells, including Yoshi P, must be pedophiles; everyone who plays a loli/shota character in JP must also be a pedophile. However, all of those are false.

No one is normalizing child pornography. You are simply villainizing people by making the assumption that anyone who wants to remove the height limitation, even the ones who want to play a loli/shota-type character, are pedophiles. Not everyone who plays those characters do so for sexual stimulation, and playing as them does not lead someone into becoming a pedophile.

Actually it IS normalizing it. Loli is shorthand for Lolicon which means Lolita Complex. Lolita is a book about an older man grooming a young girl for sex. In japan, the word is never used to specifically refer to children either since it isn't even the japanese word for children of either gender! It is always in the context of sexual media that the term is used and with even 5 minutes of googling you would see this if your arguments weren't disingenuous from the start.

So yes, lolicon/shotacon is inherently sexual by nature and not language used in everyday conversation. The art of it more often than not is sexual in nature, devolving into actual depictions of children in sexual acts.

You likely already know all of the above and have been deluding yourself that there's nothing wrong about it this whole time, or have been in an echo chamber of like-minded individuals where your viewpoint on it had never been challenged before. Regardless of origin, your insistence and willingness to engage in bad faith arguments shows you're too far gone to change your mind outside of a massive upheaval in your life, like your employer and/or friends learning about this and the subsequent alienation as a result.

These guys really don't distinguish a videogame from reality... that's why they complain to us that we want the game to be exactly like the JP version. I'm sorry to say, but they have a serious problem... (I'm referring to IAMCRAIG-0, ApollosAmour and some other 1 or 2 folks)

If we calculate a statistic, based only on who writes on this forum, it is easy to understand that you are an insignificant minority, and those who oppose this unnecessary censorship are a large majority. There is no need for polls either, it is obvious.

Also in-game talking with random players, I asked in chat what they would like, everyone said that censorship is not good.

It seems that since the last time I wrote here the situation has degenerated and no one has respected the topic. But I see that the fault lies mainly with those who want the censorship to stay. Instead of simply writing "Stay" they started writing their reasons... because as they talk about majorities and minorities, they are afraid of being the minority and so they scream to make it seem like they are numerically more. And that's the funniest thing of all.

But I'm sorry that SEGA will have a hard time understanding the situation.

SEGA dont give a fuck about what we are typing here, and I agree with them

why minorities always have to talk for others without knowing what they think about everything

@jimpjorps said in Height Restrictions, Remove or Stay?:

all I'm gonna say is that I know a lot of regular, decent people who play Elins and Shai and Lalafells, but the ones who were adamant about any changes that made them less sexy or childlike were uniformly bad people

bringing Lalafells into this is a feint, too, because they're dumpy gnomes with deep, adult voices and non-human proportions

and yes, if you call your character a "loli" or a "shota" you either (1) want to screw them or (2) need to pick a term that is not so inexorably intertwined with actual, real-life pedophilia, because in Japanese they're not just cutesy terms for diminutive characters; "lolicon" is a sexual attraction to young girls and "shotacon" is a sexual attraction to young boys and no anime fan redefinitions can change that

Absolutely, +1. There is a huge difference between dwarves/little people and children. The Lalafell still weird me out because they have the same proportions and movements as toddlers, but there's at least effort to show that they represent all age ranges with most being adults or elders. It's much less of the "she's got the body of a 5-year-old but she's 1,000-years-old" trope we tend to see.

And 100% about the terminology. There's this comparison to lolita fashion I've seen, but that's not even remotely the same thing. The fashion is much more about dressing like antique bisque dolls with the porcelain skin, big layered dresses, and curly hair, while loli almost always refers to drawn/digital pornography of girls around the 3 - 14-yo range. It could be a mixup, but I really wonder where they heard that it meant anything but that.

@Anarchy-Marine I don't think he implied anything like that. He's saying that people can make short characters, but when they frame their reasoning using erotic terms like "loli" or "shota" or when they're outraged that they can't make them sexy or childlike, they're typically scumbags. The short adult and dwarfism arguments would be outliers to that.

@TheMerfox It's not that everyone wants to, but there's clear trends we can follow. If we look at any game where ERP happens, there's always a favored race or character type. With PSO2, I think it's clear that the most targeted for this would be mommy (thicc lol) characters and loli characters. The difference is that one is weird and obviously inappropriate but not morally bankrupt, while the other is depicting something that most people are (rightfully) disturbed by. If the target of ERP was primarily enormous CASTs, I don't think any of us would be in these threads right now.

Also I'd like to point out that naming and shaming is not a good idea. If you plan on talking about someone, at least throw them a mention so they can respond. If you're going to talk smack about them however, you should just keep it to yourself or to DMs (since that tends to lead to a ban).

@Dragon-Cloud said in Height Restrictions, Remove or Stay?:

SEGA dont give a fuck about what we are typing here, and I agree with them

why minorities always have to talk for others without knowing what they think about everything

+1

@Silvalance Sorry the thread went like this, but it was to be expected. This is an argument that will never end. Sega already understands the situation since the calls to remove the height restrictions have been made since a long while (I think someone mentioned since beta). So long as the issue persists, people will keep adding to it. There's no helping that. Add also that some people just want an excuse to feel good about insulting others and "winning the argument by the power of always being right", and you get the dumpster fires that become the fates of these threads, no matter how well intended they start as.

@ZorokiHanuke I can't even make a Cast shorter than 150cm, that's funny enough. I wonder what there's to censor Casts, especially the male ones who are literally a mecha. I guess it's illegal to have a 149cm mecha for SEGA.

Hey SEGA ! Casts are always naked, please censor them! Add some irremovable clothes on our metallic characters! Very often they get sexualized, you know, it seems like a lot of people have a fetish for steel.

@IAMCRAIG-0 Loli and shota are not shorthand for lolicon or shotacon; their modern use are as slang terms used to refer to youthful female and male characters respectively. You are the first person I have seen to see those terms as the same as lolicon and shotacon. I use those terms (loli/shota) regularly with friends and aquintances at my university and not once did anyone think I was talking about sexualizing characters. People understood those terms as little girl and little boy. My first 5E D&D character I described her as a loli elf wizard, and no one thought I was sexualizing her, absolutely no one. Not a single person alienated me for using those terms and not a single person thought I was sexualizing children.

So no, loli and shota do not automatically mean lolicon or shotacon and using those terms in no way normalizes child pornography. Otherwise, me referring to my fully clothed, from head to toe, loli elf wizard in D&D was somehow normalizing child pornography despite the fact that if someone did try to assault her, they'd get disintegrated.

My first Tera character was an Elin Lancer, and I referred to her as an armored loli. No sexualization, she was fully armored, minus a helmet since Tera didn't really have helmets for elins.

My second character, whom became my main, was an elin reaper, and I refered to her as loli Kratos due to the reaper's scythes reminding me of the blades of chaos from God of War. Again, no sexualization; I covered her up. She had a skirt sure, but most elin outfits had skirts.

I referred to my elin characters as loli's on a regular basis but never once did I sexualize them and people knew what I meant when I said loli.

The fact is that those terms can be used in non sexual manners. When people say they are looking to make loli or shota characters in PSO2, that does not automatically mean they wanted to sexualize their characters.