Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.

I forgot di block Laep. So in total there are 4 pro-censorship users. I really hate it when they talk about child pornography in a totally different context. There is no evidence that there is that kind of content on this game.

If you try to answer me I will not be able to read, I have already blocked you.

I think it might be easier if I just requote the Legal Argument excerpt from the OP (really wish the OP would just be shown at the top of every page) as I have a feeling that some people aren't reading it:

Some people have suggested that it may be due to laws, such as the Child Pornography Prevention Act (or CPPA for short), against child pornography for some of these changes, some citing laws such as 18 U.S. Code § 1466A, but I personally have found this to be untrue, at least in regards to US law.

If we refer to the Supreme Court Case, Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, where it presented the question:

The Child Pornography Prevention Act of 1996 (CPPA), prohibits, inter alia, the shipment, distribution, receipt, reproduction, sale, or possession of any visual depiction that "appears to be[] of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct." 18 U.S.C. 2252A, 2256(8)(B) (Supp. V 1999). It also contains a similar prohibition concerning any visual depiction that is "advertised, promoted, presented, described, or distributed in such a manner that conveys the impression that the material is or contains a visual depiction of a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct." 18 U.S.C. 2252A, 2256(8)(D) (Supp. V 1999). The question presented is whether those prohibitions violate the First Amendment to the Constitution.

In the Supreme Court's ruling, it stated:

The statute is aimed at hard core child pornography and does not apply to innocuous images of naked children. Nor does it reach drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings depicting youthful persons in sexually explicit poses.

As we have discussed, there are several ways to disseminate educational, medical, or artistic works concerning a child's sexuality without violating the CPPA: The Act does not cover drawings, cartoons, sculptures, and paintings that depict youthful-looking persons in sexual poses; it supplies an affirmative defense to persons who disseminate visual depictions involving adults who may appear to be children, provided that the depictions are not promoted or presented as child pornography, 18 U.S.C. 2252A(c) (Supp. V 1999); and the Act does not apply to visual materials in which sexually explicit conduct by children is understood to be taking place, as long as the sexually explicit conduct is not itself visually depicted.

PSO2 would fall under the umbrella of "drawings, cartoons, sculptures, or paintings," and PSO2 does not promote or present itself as child pornography. Thus the legal precedent set by Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, would mean the CPPA would not apply to PSO2.

Now 18 U.S. Code § 1466A does state:

Any person who, in a circumstance described in subsection (d), knowingly produces, distributes, receives, or possesses with intent to distribute, a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting

So it does include "drawing[s], cartoon[s], sculpture[s], or paintingp[s]," but it also requires that the person(s) in question knowingly produce, receive, or possess with intent to distribute child pornography. The key words being knowingly and intent, as Sega would not be considered to be persons who knowingly or possess intent to distribute child pornography if this were to somehow be brought up in a court of law. Simply by having a policy against such depictions they would have a defense against such accusations as that is how it works with Symbol Arts. So there are no legal issues regarding short characters.

In regards to the cutscenes, if you actually watch the removed cutscene, the camera does not show Al's hand when he accidentally grabs Kohri's chest. Furthermore, the cutscene is in the game's files; that's where the dubbed voice lines came from. If there was an actual legal issue with the cutscenes, then they wouldn't be in the game's files. Any thing within a game's files constitutes as part of the game's content as far as rating boards and legal entities are concerned; an example of this would be Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas and its infamous Hot Coffee Mod where the sex scenes were found within the game's files; thus the game was re-rated in rating boards across the world and banned in countries where said content is inappropriate. Simply by having the content within the game files, even if inaccessible during normal gameplay, constitutes as distributing said content as it is downloaded with the game.

The removed cutscene is overall tame and there are far more erotic things. An example would be Kohri's outfit during the end of Chapter 4 of Episode 4 and throughout Chapter 5. It is designed in a manner to resemble a BDSM outfit and specifically draws attention to her chest and groin; the outfit is far more erotic than the bath towels that the girls wear in the removed cutscene. Also remember that the game is rated M and there are far more explicit M rated games; take Senran Kagura for example. Yes, Kohri and Hitsugi are only 16, and thus are under the age of majority in a number of countries (US included), but so are many characters in Senran Kagura, again as an example. Senran Kagura goes uncensored on every platform except for Sony's and is available in many countries. This, combined with the aforementioned reasons, makes it unlikely for there to be any legal issue for the game to go uncensored. The more likely culprit is western cancel culture.

So yeah, there really shouldn't be any legal issue with the game going uncensored.

It's not just -there shouldn't be-... There just isn't. None at all. Better to be clearly defined. There's no grey areas with the content removed. If Sega wanted to remove things on behalf of their consumer- they should have asked their consumers if they would rather have a more true to original version or things cut up/diced, restricted as a new player to the series. They didn't ask for feedback- and they had a closed beta test where the change was already in place. Very dishonest about the whole market choice of All The Content. Can only hope they get their heads on right and don't decide to do this for New Genesis as well.

They should just focus on what matters and that is quality content, not removal of cutscenes that literally are just there for the lulz.

Someone on Steam attempted to open a thread about the censorship, but in the end no one respected the rules and when he pointed this out a Valve moderator locked the thread. Apparently he was in this forum and left for the same reasons. It's truly amazing the monstrosity with which the SJWs attack people... But the most disgusting thing is that there is always someone who accuses of pedophilia for no reason.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1056640/discussions/0/2950377478199532292/?ctp=6#c2950377478200744110


@MoldyAsp33874 said in Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.:

Can only hope they get their heads on right and don't decide to do this for New Genesis as well.

PSO2 legacy and PSO2 New Genesis are essentially interdependent, if it's censored here, it will be censored there too. Remember that the characters are shared, so if you create a 150cm character here, you can't make it shorter there. There will be the same restrictions. So in the current state of the situation, New Genesis is censored, there's no need to wait for the release to figure it out.


I updated my signature by inserting the alarm clock, it's amazing that they censored this... 😧

@Michelle said in Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.:

Someone on Steam attempted to open a thread about the censorship, but in the end no one respected the rules and when he pointed this out a Valve moderator locked the thread. Apparently he was in this forum and left for the same reasons. It's truly amazing the monstrosity with which the SJWs attack people... But the most disgusting thing is that there is always someone who accuses of pedophilia for no reason.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1056640/discussions/0/2950377478199532292/?ctp=6#c2950377478200744110


@MoldyAsp33874 said in Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.:

Can only hope they get their heads on right and don't decide to do this for New Genesis as well.

PSO2 legacy and PSO2 New Genesis are essentially interdependent, if it's censored here, it will be censored there too. Remember that the characters are shared, so if you create a 150cm character here, you can't make it shorter there. There will be the same restrictions. So in the current state of the situation, New Genesis is censored, there's no need to wait for the release to figure it out.


I updated my signature by inserting the alarm clock, it's amazing that they censored this... 😧

I realize this about new genesis. But I still have some sliver of hope that the restrictions would be off certain things even if they're not changed here. For instance- using a salon pass in New gen- you could have the full creator. And if you came back it would simply revert you to min height in pso2 if you happened to be below it.

And yeah- Steam is awful for those types of discussions. People are way more aggressive and while there is probably less pro-censorship types there.. they are way angrier and steam seems to only do daily bans so they do not even care if they're hit with one. Element Seraph there has been complaining about censorship and calling people pedos since steam pc launch. Nonstop- i'd be surprised if he even plays the game.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.:

I realize this about new genesis. But I still have some sliver of hope that the restrictions would be off certain things even if they're not changed here. For instance- using a salon pass in New gen- you could have the full creator. And if you came back it would simply revert you to min height in pso2 if you happened to be below it.

If NGS does not have the restriction, and they do not re-program this PSO2, it will happen that when you use the Salon Pass on NGS and then switch to this PSO2, you will have "Height Error" and you will not be able to login. Then the system breaks. Adios old PSO2. 😂

The only way is to remove the restriction here, otherwise it makes no sense that NGS doesn't have it. This is a very serious problem, actually the censorship here has definitely compromised NGS too, Michelle has started a good topic now to discuss. The damage is greater than it appears. I absolutely don't want any problems on NGS.

I keep reading this thread and while not surprised anymore, the content doesn't stop being baffling. Now, even though I try to stay in a more neutral-ish stance nowadays, I still have to express things as I see them.

WARNING Personal opinion incoming

From the back and forth, I still see it's usually the pro censor side trying to throw dirt at the people of the anti censor side, and still clinging to this whole pedophilia argument that has been disproven long ago, and also while not being honest at all about their own wishes, still using outside things like global culture and laws as if that was a good defense.

My message to those doing that or planning to do that, is to stop and start being honest with yourselves. Of course, the same I will say to any anti censor actually wanting to sexualize polygonal children and not saying it straight. So this is a message to both on that sense. But from the pro censors, I still see that only one person, Redex, was the only honest one saying he didn't want the censor gone because he didn't want to see the extra stuff. Not because of laws or culture or anything else. That's completely irrelevant here. You all should get that into your skulls by now. This is about what YOU desire and want for this game. Not about a majority or minority or a law or a culture. Each poster here votes and contributes as a person. Not as a group.

You don't want to see semi naked little virtual girls dancing on a pole? Good. That's that. I support that very stance. And I was emphatic in saying I also didn't want to see adults doing it either, not in global, not in JP, and regardless of it already being past the point of no return on that one, I can still say it's the biggest negative point this game had from my view, and I wouldn't miss it if the devs woke up one day and up and blanket removed it all. But it's a view that doesn't involve any laws nor culture. It's my view and mine alone, and I feel it's how being honest with this all should be.

Someone else likes the content? Good for them. I don't share on that but I won't call them a pervert or worse for it, because this is still above all, pixels and polygons, and so long as people follow the laws and respect each other, they are not evil to me, so I'll have no reason to harass them on something they may like or not. And after all, other video games, Crunchy roll and YT have been showing sexualized content involving fictional minors for several years and nobody has been arrested for it. No real humans were harmed in the making of this (other than Sega's infamous and deadly dev crunch). So really, let's be honest with ourselves, and let's start respecting the non shared views. It's damn 2020 and we should all be already way above this crap since long ago.

@ZorokiHanuke said in Can we not cut out anymore story scenes and stop it with censorship in general.:

You don't want to see semi naked little virtual girls dancing on a pole? Good. That's that. I support that very stance. And I was emphatic in saying I also didn't want to see adults doing it either, not in global, not in JP, and regardless of it already being past the point of no return on that one, I can still say it's the biggest negative point this game had from my view, and I wouldn't miss it if the devs woke up one day and up and blanket removed it all. But it's a view that doesn't involve any laws nor culture. It's my view and mine alone, and I feel it's how being honest with this all should be.

I just don't want to see naked Goku pole dancing at Quna's concert again.

@Weirdo I feel your pain man, I do.

@ZorokiHanuke Nice post, really.


I don't remember if I have already clearly expressed my views on this, but I do now briefly.

About the censorship:

I don't like censorship in general, especially when the censorship is selective and forced to the Western culture, which is truly ridiculous and abusive, because Western culture contains thousand extremely different cultures... Japanese culture is 1.

Instead, I give up when the censorship is applied globally in a homogeneous way, without distinction. (JP should be censored too.)

About this particular censored game:

Usually pro-censorship users refer to this with "naked children", but It's obvious this is not the case. The bath scenes in EP4 are already censored in Japan, with fog and towels. You really can't see those 16-17yo "children" naked. (In my country children are from 1 to 12yo, while 13 to 19yo are teenagers, in PSO2 the minimum age is 16yo).

Furthermore, those scenes have no sexual content, otherwise they would have been censored even in Japan considering the audience to which this game is referred.

Regarding the height restriction, I'm honest, I want to have the ability to create a very short character. In JP I have two characters, a little dewman wizard, and a mini cast Gundam-like. I find they are very cute and funny.

There are some particular emotes like the pole-dance, I honestly don't care. If I see little characters using the pole-dance, I laugh. They are also not that common in JP, it is very rare to find this scene, it exists but it is not that easy to come across. So I don't see the problem.

@Weirdo Let the Goku's freely dance if they want to!

All jokes aside, I don't mind if actual problematic things are discussed and then removed if they truly are problematic.

I'm all for compromises such as toggle options, separate ships, lobbies etc for X things.

I'd rather compromise than outright go one way or another IF it's truly an issue that needs to be discussed.

All we need is just transparency and actual communication and we can be happy.

@Silvalance Thanks. And in further adding to my view, I'm not a super prude who wants everything censored either. It's just that I see things should have their place and time, and as even some pro censors have expressed, this is actually the first PS game where skimpiness and sexualization may have crossed a line none of the previous games crossed before. And in my case it's a bit different because I decided to not watch content of this game in the 8 years it was around in JP, just because I felt slapped in the face when the NA version didn't happen back then. So I didn't really know what was in here when I started playing.

But back to the whole place and time thing, I don't mind a female character in a combat situation wearing a "combat leotard" or something that shows body lines, so long as it also remains elegant and keeps some sense of a combat function. And stuff like full fledged swimsuits have been seeping into MMOs and other MP games since a long while already, so they are pretty much a common sight nowadays. The whole clash of modern stuff in supposedly medieval fantasy themed games (like swimsuits and chibi cars in Tera for example) was pretty shocking and mood killing when it began showing up, but guess I learned to use a live and let die approach for those. Then again, I already quit all those games anyway.

I feel that the more sexual things have a place in games where that is a central part of the theme. I have played one or two such games and I don't feel like an hypocrite saying it, because it fits my whole place and time view. My problem is that such sexuality has been entering game media I personally feel doesn't need it (check most modern fighting games to see the continuing sexualization in female outfits, for example). But if investors and corporate heads think otherwise, that's where their money radars point and I already know my opinion may not be popular. Then again, as an older player, I'm soon to bid farewell to this all so my opinion may not matter, regardless of me still being at least wanting to be heard.

My more recent shock happened when I started seeing what this game, PSO2, had in store in terms of emotes and some outfits. Never before had I seen such risque animations unleashed for players in this series, while also allowing very skimpy outfits to use them on. And while I lamented the height restriction the most and still to this day I want it reverted to JP levels, I DO understand why some westerners may not want to see such a thing happening on their screens. Does not mean I approve of their aggressive name calling and crime accusing methods here, but I agree with them that not everyone can stomach seeing such things and keep walking normally with a straight face, even among westerners who do watch anime on a regular basis.

On the case of the removed cut scene, I also didn't see any sex, though I also felt Sega wouldn't have needed to edit too much out of it to make it viewable in the west without having to remove it completely. Say, remove just the accidental grope part (by changing the camera shot to somewhere else) and swap Khori's comment about sweat and whatever, to a maybe more toned down version. Otherwise, the scene as it is didn't really bother me. I just saw it silly and not a real high point of the game. But not bad enough to censor. Meaning, by now I don't mind if it remains removed or if they add it later.

So really, that's how it is for me. I feel I can support a stance without having to attack others, and despite some people may find me annoying (and I suspect some may have blocked me), I'll still conduct myself in a respectful way, hoping I can maybe lead by example.

@ZorokiHanuke All this can be boiled down to is that, the people who did get offended by said emotes etc and cutscenes were not the target audience at all and this was not the game for them.

It may be super rude of me to say what is and what isn't a game for someone BUT hear me out.

When a game doesn't fit your taste and you throw a hissy fit or demand censoring name changes because X Thing seems to be a problem to you, that's when you should think twice if the game is for you.

It might be cool and unique, but if there's things that tick you off or you want changed, then it's really not ment for ya.

The target audience for global PSO2 was newer people than teh Japan ones BUT they could not with a straight face and hand across their heart say that they didnt' want them to play on their own servers and flood more money in from returnee JP vets.

And these changes which were done haphazardly and not even notified in patch notes (Which seem to be lacking anyways) and the silence surrounding it point to them just wanting a quick buck and not actually wanting to target a new audience but rather more money.

The global version is also thrown together haphazardly from the SEA regions client from what I've gather since the hacking tools etc that were a problem there, still functioned on this very client and honestly, were not dealt with fast enough to prevent massive meseta farms and the influx of cheaters who people saw oneshotting from across the map in UQs (Forums have videos about these).

So this version is a money grab in anticipation of NGS which might actually be a flop here in the west OR they are planning on shutting down PSO2 and just continuing NGS instead but want people to have the chance to move their chars over.

This is all my own logic and opinions mostly.

The devs still need to be more transparent and speak to us instead of remaining silent.

I appreciate you being a true neutral side to this.

@SleeprunnerInc You do have a fair point of view. May not 100% agree to some parts though. For example. At least I am not really demanding, as in, throwing a fit about what I don't like. This is different from what we have all seen from some users regardless of which side they are on. My approach is more on a feedback way, stating that the product as it is may not fulfill completely my tastes, BUT, that I think that maybe something can be changed, in my wish for a better product. Now, better for who? For me? Well, I'm my own main audience so that's important to me, but as a civilized human, I also understand I'm not the only one around here, which is one of the main reasons why I post my stuff as respectful feedback.

Saying that, I can't say PSO2 isn't a game for me. I'm playing it and I'm liking a lot of aspects of it. I'm also dumping money on it like a dumb monkey, so the product DOES indeed appeal to me. It's just that there are a few things here and there that I didn't like, and in this free speech environment we live in, I feel I can at least let it be known, regardless of any changes my stance can trigger or not.

Remember the two terms. Feedback, what you think of a product, and Demand, what you want to force changed in a product. I as an user cannot demand, but can offer feedback, and if everyone else does, a cumulative opinion can be formed and those behind the product can decide what to do with it.