I am done, i want my money back

@DDDDLife Yeah there's a thousand things here that can be the root cause of problems on computers.

Especially when trying to figure out what causes a game to run bad, the usual reply is: MY COMPUTER IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITS THE GAME.

When in reality you check their stuff and it's just not gona work since they have something there that just doesn't wana work together with another thing.

As for this game?

I think it's just badly localized to the point where the files keep wrecking themselves due to updates, config changes, permission changes etc.

For some it works flawlessly and for others it does not.

I was originally part of the group of people who had to change the permissions and didn't have issues afterwards.

Then I had to help another friend who's game nuked itself to remove leftover files for a fresh install and uh oh my game refused to startup and close at the same time.

So I had to nuke it manually and fight with windows till it let me control MY computer files.

(I still fucking hate windows 10. Windows 7 for life.)

And then I just installed Tweaker and ran their stuff.

The same thing I used to run the JP version and it just works.

It's like slapping flex tape on to it and it just works.

I have seen that as well, may players "Have a Pc", But lack the rights to make changes to the OS, This is especially true if you bought your own rig that had everything already installed. Thankfully, I did so as well, I bought my AMD potato from best buy, But when I got home I made sure that I changed ALL permissions FIRST before I did anything else to it. To date- I haven't had many issues thus far. Windows 7 was a BEAUTIFUL OS, The one that superceded Vista ( CRINGES), Although there are many who still cling to it, MS ended support for that OS. ( Windows 8 was another Mishmash of stupidity, and then they just changed it to "Windows 10".)

@DDDDLife Ye, if I would not have needed to buy a new PC (Courtesy of my brother reformatting my HDD on the old PC so that it would not work with the motherboard anymore) I would still be using Windows 7 and just playing PSO on JP servers till it was available for other OS's outside 10.

Windows 8 was made for tablets, touch screens etc and Windows 10 WAS supposed to be the ''gamers'' OS which bombed hard at the beginning with Cortana and files being deleted etc.

We really shouldn't need to go through so much shit to install or uninstall. I hope Steam fixes these issues but who knows if we still need to log in via the MStore. If that's the case, would be completely pointless to get it there and you're safer sticking with the Tweaker. This game for the PC west was released as a shitshow at the end of the day. We coulda had so much more people in the ranks if not for all this nonsense.

@SleeprunnerInc said in I am done, i want my money back:

As for this game?

I think it's just badly localized to the point where the files keep wrecking themselves due to updates, config changes, permission changes etc.

There's definitely something about the installation setup that is causing trouble. The idea that everyone who's ever had an issue with this game's install has done something wrong (or even that they've all pirated Windows, I mean what?) really falls apart when you consider that:

  1. None of us have had any of our dozens of other games break at all let alone this much since before digital store launchers began 15+ years ago (and most of those issues were down to broken DRM implementations which when you think about it are similar in nature).

  2. Some of us have assembled a completely new machine with a fresh controlled Windows 10 installation and are still running into exactly the same trouble.

  3. Everyone can see the files have nonstandard ownership and permissions apparently even for UWP's usual interference.

  4. The last round of Windows 10 updates caused a sudden apparent spike in users reporting issues for the first time.

  5. The PSO2 team have made four - pages - acknowledging - these problems and that they are being worked on.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn the "and more PC platforms soon" was a result of hasty renegotiation over the broken Microsoft Store delivery.

Of course it doesn't surprise me that some users have been lucky (so far?) and it's just worked for them. I find the idea that they claim to be PC savvy enough to regularly change stuff Microsoft tries to keep hidden while at the same time also having never done so on the machine that they use for PSO2 an... interesting combination, but having seen the game self-destruct on new machines I don't think there's much benefit to calling them out on it.

More importantly, we've already seen some people on Twitter, Reddit and Discord shift from "Works on my machine[, you must have done something wrong]." to "My game worked fine for two weeks but the last update broke it!" (I've even seen the idea put forward that the last game or Windows 10 update created a new issue, but it's really all the same mess.) So to me everyone still saying the former especially the rude ones are just potentials to make that same transition.

But I won't criticise them for it. Because I'm sure after they've seen other users' installs suddenly break, on some level they're probably also worried it might happen to them next and nobody should have to game with that concern for a ~70 GB download.

So with the new Win10 Update which cause my PSO2 to delete itself everyday - i decided to completely delete everything, re-download and changed the whole PSO2 bin folder's ownership to myself instead of "Trusted" whatever it was. I haven't had any issues yet and this is the 5th day.

Its really hard to believe that this is a issue in the first place. How can a programm uninstall itself is beyond me.

@KrayzieKami Well whoever it was (Microsoft or Sega or whoever is inbetween them) has managed to do it and it's astoundingly stupid.

Honestly If they would not have the Windows 10 implementation forced on you, I think the game would run better.

@KrayzieKami said in I am done, i want my money back:

Its really hard to believe that this is a issue in the first place. How can a programm uninstall itself is beyond me.

it doesn't Uninstall, But there seems to be a big misunderstanding and misrepresentation that somehow the game is being overwritten, In areas albeit maybe be it the end user. The result is from not finding some solution or even answers Sega and MS are cut to the quick.

The reason why I never fully discarded the possible idea that the game may be lacking compatibility with certain PC hardware/software configurations out there is because the world of computers can be really strange. I have learned quite a few odd things along the way, like:

  1. Having perfectly working code and adding more perfectly working code can get you bugged code.
  2. A newer driver has the potential to break some of your previously perfectly working software.
  3. Even computers with the exact same hardware and software can deal slightly differently with software.

So yeah, in some extreme cases, we would never exactly know what causes what. So all we can do is follow steps to TRY and ease up the process of making our computers better and more compatible by running less programs and having updates and security up to date as much as we can, but always having in mind that while we are trying to up the success rate, it's not a 100% sure cure.

I haven't seen anyone's game actually uninstall (but I'm not saying that doesn't happen too). The people's installs that I have seen disappear have been from Windows deciding to stop their / the admin user seeing it, so ModifiableWindowsApps looks empty and reports its size as 0 bytes but the disk space is still taken. Navigating to it using the symlink sometimes works.

Once or twice simply restarting the machine has been enough to get files to display again. Other times we've had to do a bit more with permissions editing. Only once so far have we had to fully reinstall for someone (5 hours...) but we may have been lucky in that department. But even then it wasn't because the game uninstalled. It just wouldn't start and we got to the point where suggested fixes and file checks were both failing to help and taking the time that a reinstall would take anyway.

I have seen it uninstall (at partially) and traced it back to the permissions on the registry for Gameservice becoming "corrupted" due to no longer having an associating with the pso2 exe launcher and game.

MS store provides you an 11 gb MSIX file that is UWP with an external launcher packaged inside of it. It goes to the System owned WindowsApps folder.

Once downloaded, the .exe launcher gets unpacked into WindowsApps as oxyna_blahblah and has the same ownership cause of the location being WindowsApps.

It is supposed to use the TrustedInstaller ownership through admin elevation to install the rest of the game in ModifiableWindowsApps folder, which is not owned by System but rather by "Owner" (linked to local admin i think) which will then allow the external launcher to work properly, be able to patch the game, and use windows dependencies properly (cause Windows doesn't allow external launches to download system files). Well from my observational testing, it puts it in Mutable (inside of WindowsApps, the system owned folder), backs it up in MutableBackup, and then uses a shortcut in ModifiableWindowsApps.

Problem that can arise with that is the game has to use it's one time admin elevation permissions to access different system files through the virtualization and (if inheritance is enabled on any of the System owned permissions) starts creating these caches in Local Apps with the wrong permissions, which can then make it back to the registry for those items.

But if it messed it all up, why does it work til you restart? This part I am not 100% sure, but think it is because the ownership of the original oxyna_blahblah file (where the real external launcher was first launched and how MS Sfore knows to find it) got jacked up from the launcher's incorrect use of permissions and installing the game in the wrong location before shortcutting it out to a different location and losing it's association with the MS store and gameservices.

Pretty much a long winded way of saying that the external launched is supposed to install in the ModifiableWindows environment, which has less strict permissions, but through errors in programming (maybe language barriers?) it is installing the whole game in a System protected area, backing it up in a system protected area, and if your computer isn't squeaky clean, losing the proper association through bad permission set up.

That was my discovering during launch week at least, not sure what has changed or what could have been incorrect assumptions, cause I gave up on trying to assist individuals who consistently place the blame on MS while praying to their SEGA shrines in the basement.

Praising Sega is pretty silly regardless. The game uses 94,000+ files of which many are tiny. It's horrifically inefficient because of the overheads involved in downloading, processing and storing them. And checking after an update, which we've all now seen takes a comically unnecessary amount of time.

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I mean look at that for disk use. It's ridiculous. And these overheads were nothing new to PCs even in 2012. Even Blue Burst knew how to bundle them into libraries. Sadly this is the way Online 2 is; even when the game starts being provided outside of the Microsoft Store it will probably need to work like this, potentially still locked to Sega's launcher to download and (euughh) check them.


What makes the installation instability interesting is some of the cause seems to be rooted in the ownership and permissions of files (and perhaps symlinks) created only during install. We've already had a first attempt at making changes already tanking some installs last maintenance and the likelihood of needing to rework a lot of whatever was done wrong so that also adds complexity.

I can envision any permanent stable fix with the Microsoft Store version will possibly / probably involve asking or recommending PC players to fully reinstall the game. Potentially with some cleanup instruction to stop remnants of the original flawed install causing trouble.

I'm sure most of us are looking forward to get away from the whole ownership, permissions and virtualisation mess simply to remove a layer of this complexity. But I expect that's also what's causing the game to be unreachable by GeForce, meaning many of us can't use Nvidia's overrides to get rid of some of the unpleasant distance edge shimmering the game's got going on right now.

@Miraglyth said in I am done, i want my money back:

Praising Sega is pretty silly regardless. The game uses 94,000+ files of which many are tiny. It's horrifically inefficient because of the overheads involved in downloading, processing and storing them. And checking after an update, which we've all now seen takes a comically unnecessary amount of time.

img

I mean look at that for disk use. It's ridiculous. And these overheads were nothing new to PCs even in 2012. Even Blue Burst knew how to bundle them into libraries. Sadly this is the way Online 2 is; even when the game starts being provided outside of the Microsoft Store it will probably need to work like this, potentially still locked to Sega's launcher to download and (euughh) check them.

Unfortunately, that is how PSO2 JP handles it, too, though there is a remedy for that, but it could cause issues with updating and the like. That remedy being to highlight everything in the folder and compressing it. The files will be reduced to their actual size, but permissions could preventt that from happening on certain systems and it could also force files to need re-downloaded.

I don't use a tweaker since mine worked since launch day flawlessly but I want to add my experience after what happened last night.

I was in the Daybreak Urgent Quest at 1am when NPCs disappeared and the audio stopped. Players were moving like normal, and I could only see enemies on the map; even when I hit 800/800 it didn't show completion, so I bailed but turned out it still counted. I turned in the daily quest, swapped characters, and found a bunch of UI elements were missing. So I quit, and lo behold the start menu icon had a white bar on it. I didn't find this unusual since this usually meant either the program in question or windows had a crucial update required to run it.

So I thought it was an emergency maintenance patch or something, though usually this would force you out of the game prior to being launched but whatever. I restarted, windows updated, and started PSO2 up again. This time however, I got a message saying "New launcher available", alright sure; and the launcher restarted and started downloading a file. But then as soon as I saw the estimated timer to be about two hours and the file size, I realized it was redownloading the entire game. Didn't do anything, let it do its thing, relogged into PSO2 and played for 15 minutes until I got an np0 error (first time I've seen this error, and oddly is not recorded within event viewer). Relogged in and played for another hour before I went to sleep.

Luckily I'm not part of the crowd whose disk space is being held hostage, but what I found bizarre was that this started while in the middle of the game, yet my friend who was also in the game the entire time was not affected whatsoever. He too got the windows update but he didn't go through my issue and played like normal all last night, and today as well.

I'm leaving install as is for the time being since it's still working for me but I'm starting to become wary about the Microsoft Store situation despite playing multiple Forza games flawlessly in the past on the same machine. Hell, my other friend ragequit after he lost access to the game twice in a week and basically vowed to stay away from Microsoft store AND PSO2 even if it is coming to steam (great going lads for ****ing up my circle's anticipation). Basically my point is that even if it's working for you, you'll never know when disaster will strike so be prepared. In any case, the Microsoft Store has GOT TO GO.