Regarding Pre-PC Items...

MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

I mean- it will destroy the market. Depending on what your character has. It will destroy a lot of peoples hard work grinding time and money to get a cosmetic they could have got for a 10th of the price if they waited a couple of days. It'll upset a lot of people and even people who spent money on the game will find their real life money worthless. Imagine seeing a pricey emote and throwing in AC to get a ticket to grab it- just for your 30+ dollars of AC needed to get it turn into a value of nothing the next week.

If you're okay with many old players and many new players(me) being bothered by investing and working towards something to come out with nothing in the end just so people can have a few not-so-great cosmetics(compared to what was on SG. Which I approve of returning because they are untradeable..) then I guess it's fine.

When it comes down to it, they have re-released things in the past even in Japan. It wouldn't be new. And I've never seen people complain there about money they chose to spend on a Scratch. I certainly wouldn't either and I have absolutely spent $30-$50+ on some.

I'm an older player. I played both on the Japan version and the North American version. I've played in the Closed beta of NA and X-Box's Open Beta.

And I absolutely feel that there is no actual reasoning to be against it beyond wanting to be selfish and keep rare things rare for profit or the idea that just because it took someone more time/cost more, nobody else should deserve it unless they equal that amount or more.

But things will always go up and require more. And in the case of consumables, some things will even cease to exist.

And I HATE that mentality, honestly. I would choose to have wasted hundreds of dollars and many millions of meseta for something to come back for free every single time so many more people can be happy for something they really wanted than ever say no and continue the awful chain of demand and higher and higher prices.

If I choose to put in all that time and effort and money just incase things don't get released, so be it, but I would never be upset about others getting another shot.

@Miraglyth said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

@Princesse-Jen said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

I spent a lot on some items, absolutely, but I have no issue if someone manages to get it cheaper or easier than I did.

I'd like to echo this. By this point I must have spent well over 30 million - and well over half of all the meseta I've ever had - on items that came from free campaigns. If those campaigns are re-run I won't regret a single meseta of it because it means everyone could get things that they always should have been able to and to me that sense of server-wide fairness matters way more than personal interests.

I'm honestly just quoting this because I appreciate the agreement so much. I know it's absolutely an unpopular opinion, but I feel a lot of communities would be less toxic and more open if more people felt this way.

Free campaigns are a bit different than AC scratch trade-able cosmetics though. You're not out of real money in that case.
Edit1: Also- campaign cosmetics are fundamentally different in that the most any account can ever get is 1. In this way they may go up higher in price than AC scratch cosmetics to meet demand since any new player will need to take one from an existing player. With AC scratches- if a cosmetic gets too high- more people whale for it and choose that with their choose-any ticket. Pushing the price down as supply goes up. That can't be done with campaign cosmetics- This is easy to see as the new rappie emote has shot up from 1m to 8m in just a few days despite the only thing you needed to obtain it- is being in alliance with 4 people.

At this point the community is basically broken down into a few groups:

Xbox players who whaled early before PC inflation on AC cosmetics and still have them in the bank: Congratulations- you're a billionaire. Extremely hard to obtain and rare cosmetics that PC had no chance to get easily- and can only pay the price you set because you're one of the few on the server that decides the price for these items. You're going to be upset that your investment did not pay off when the banner returns.

Xbox players who grinded fast and gained money through normal means- leveling to 75 quickly for more ways to make easy Meseta- who bought trending cosmetics when they were cheap thanks to whales throwing them on the auction house before PC inflation.- That you still have. Congratulations- you're probably very rich in assets from all your hard work of no-life grinding for a cosmetic you earned. You're probably not going to like that those cosmetics are now easily obtained again and even cheaper than what you paid now that the PC community can also whale for them.

PC players who grinded quickly and spent all their cash on pricey cosmetics knowing that when the other PC players grinded quickly and more PC players entered the server(on top of the botched PC launch where many people couldn't get into the game for a few days or had to reinstall the game multiple times) to buy AC scratch items at the end of their banner knowing that they would jump in price and never go down due to being unavailable and then resold them. - I fall into this category because I purchased multiple pole dance for 8m and it is now at 70m price as the banner which had it ended on I believe the 7th?.. or the 3rd? Not sure- early in the PC life though and I worked fast to grab daily currency on 3 chars and grinded hard to make that money. I have been watching trends and using knowledge of MMO economy to invest in each banner that comes by since then and am relatively wealthy as an F2P player with the money to buy most of the cosmetics I want- if not all of them. Some such as duskwake being at 200m+ are not something I would ever spend my meseta on since I know greater cosmetics will be much cheaper down the line- and as better cosmetics filling the niche of an older cosmetic appear- it will also cause older cosmetics to drop a bit. As can be seen from pole dance dropping after chair dance emerged. Either way- I would profit most from the banner coming back because I have liquidated my cosmetic investments into pure Meseta- I would feel bad for the people who purchased my cosmetics for high prices after the returning banner pushes their prices to average AC cosmetic price of 2-8m.

PC players who grinded hard to buy pricey cosmetics when they were much cheaper than they are now and still have them. Well- your work is down the drain. You should have sold your items to grab that meseta instead of checking the shops every day watching your stocks rise and for when you'll feel great about your return investment. You waited too long and now you're not only poor but all your hard work could have been cut into fractions and someone with an 8th of your gametime can now purchase your cosmetic assets.

Basically- the only type of people who this truly benefits are the ones who did not buy cosmetics and just have loads of money sitting around. In a fashion heavy game I think lots of people are buying cosmetics and as soon as you own a cosmetic you are part of the ingame economy that revolves around cosmetic prices. You bought an item that told the seller people are willing to spend this much on this item. And you either do that before the banner returns with lots of effort or you do it afterward.

Also for those who truly capitalized on the market like myself and have lots of money- when the returning cosmetics come back- and prices drop. You'll see people like us further manipulating the economy by buying up low end cosmetics and undercutting future prices- it will also benefit greatly the real money trader problem who are hoarding billions of meseta and buying up entire cosmetic categories to fix their own price. You probably don't want to help those people either. You're going to have cosmetic tycoons manipulating new users in an even greater and dirty way because they won't have any use for their money anymore. Cosmetics being the driving force of the economy puts the price on BiS progressive gear as well- Items are so high because you want to sell them and then buy a cosmetic- there's no other reason to have money than purchasing fashion. If the price of a nemesis weapon ends up being enough to buy multiple pole dances you can assure the price of nemesis weapons will drop as well. Because that just won't make any sense.

and of course- there's a lot of good samaritans like those in this thread saying they're perfectly fine losing out on effort or real world currency if other people can easily obtain these items. But I wouldn't be so sure that the majority of users would think this. You would have to put it to a vote and poll even those who don't use the forums- i'd be interested in the result. And be surprised if there were a lot of people who agreed with the returning banners even knowing the effects it would have on their own assets- of course the more it seems like a sure thing- the more the economy will change to reflect this. This is observed even in a real world economy as the DOW drops whenever there is some worrying information that could effect it. It's a fragile thing but it's not complex to cash in on it either.

@Princesse-Jen said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

If I choose to put in all that time and effort and money just incase things don't get released, so be it, but I would never be upset about others getting another shot.

This sums up the nature of the situation to me really. I just think meseta itself as a permanent infinite resource. Hence I believe the situationally-exaggerated ability for some to get a burst of meseta is less important than others' general access to cosmetics they would actually use as their primary fashion.

I appreciate the agreement so much. I know it's absolutely an unpopular opinion, but I feel a lot of communities would be less toxic and more open if more people felt this way.

Thank you! having had a few months of occasionally hostile response to my views this was refreshing and reassuring to read. 😊

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

Free campaigns are a bit different than AC scratch trade-able cosmetics though. You're not out of real money in that case.

Before responding: I note this touches on the idea that all limited content sources that are not both real-money and tradable should be safe to re-run. This would include campaigns, FUN scratches and all not tradable content be it from Mission Pass' gold tiers, Fresh Finds, or SG Shop sales. On that I completely agree and to repeat myself from an earlier post, I don't think anyone here has disagreed.

On to the response: The connection of real money expenditure and tradable items pretty much limits the scope of the point to AC scratch items. All AC scratch sets expire, and re-run sets would be no exception. Anything that is highly valuable due to PC players' inability to generate it would remain highly valuable after (or with reference to the likes of 452: Chair Dance, even during) a re-run. It's just that "highly" would not be severely exaggerated by the artificial scarcity of not letting PC players generate them before. So I think it's better to think of that as a correction than a devaluation.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

PC players who grinded hard to buy pricey cosmetics when they were much cheaper than they are now and still have them. Well- your work is down the drain. You should have sold your items to grab that meseta

I can't help but feel this completely disregards the last few posts Princesse Jen and I have made. Yes in that scenario our work goes to waste, but who are you to say what we should have done? I am happy for all of that meseta to disappear. We play the game. It comes back. The items we want to use potentially never will. I am willing to take the hit for the insurance of access to an item I always wanted.

I just don't like this line of thinking that says "You should sell items you really want to use in case they come back" or "If they do come back, you lost out". No I didn't. I still have the item I wanted. That's the important thing! Even if we were told they would come back in advance I wouldn't sell them just in case it never happens. To me it's not worth the risk!

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

Also for those who truly capitalized on the market like myself and have lots of money- when the returning cosmetics come back- and prices drop. You'll see people like us further manipulating the economy

Before responding I must note my amusement: According to the people who rejected the need for a Ship 4 and the fresh start it would bring, this kind of manipulation from the financial headstart and millions of meseta Xbox One players had would never be an issue. I'm not saying I disagree with you; it's just amusing to see completely contradictory beliefs be used both ways to discourage letting PC players in on some of the fun.

On to the response: Rich players will seek to manipulate the limited nature of AC scratch sets regardless of whether those sets appeared before or not. I don't understand how a set appearing before would give these players any additional means to perform this manipulation when compared to a set that has not appeared before.

I don't mean manipulating in a negative way- I just mean following the money. I myself have never manipulated the economy in ways of buying the cheapest 10 items to put them back much higher 1 or 2 at a time. But on a much smaller scale- of course I have bought items with the intention of reselling them knowing that limited edition items will increase in price as the game ages. You don't have to be an evil businessman with intent to smash the poor into the ground with their golden fists. I just made some smart investments and they paid off. I think the vast majority of players know when it would be a smart investment to buy an item- but not all are patient enough to set aside a lot of their money into an item- especially not if they plan to buy something specific(mainly weapons or units) when it appears low enough for them.

But there will certainly be people manipulating the market in a negative way- as I mentioned the real money traders who do it for a living who are far and beyond the richest players on the server with their organized economics. They would love a return of the banners- as the value of their coin will go much further when prices drop across the board. Which means more items to buy up and resell when they are monopolizing the price. You can't escape this downside- it's near impossible to completely get rid of them. Other games such as FF11 and FF14 mass ban them- and servers have actually broken under the stress of returning accounts when they come back.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

But there will certainly be people manipulating the market in a negative way- as I mentioned the real money traders who do it for a living who are far and beyond the richest players on the server with their organized economics. They would love a return of the banners- as the value of their coin will go much further when prices drop across the board. Which means more items to buy up and resell when they are monopolizing the price.

I still don't understand how there is more exposure to "negative manipulation" with a returning set than with a new set. Can you explain that?

@Miraglyth said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

But there will certainly be people manipulating the market in a negative way- as I mentioned the real money traders who do it for a living who are far and beyond the richest players on the server with their organized economics. They would love a return of the banners- as the value of their coin will go much further when prices drop across the board. Which means more items to buy up and resell when they are monopolizing the price.

I still don't understand why this would happen more with a returning set than it would a new set. Can you explain that?

Players know the perceived value of a returning set by the price on the auction house. Say pole dance which is currently at 70m- have it drop to it's initial value of under 10m with it returning- since whales would love to jump on those tickets in hopes to get it via real money and immediately sell it for meseta before prices drop- knowing they must sell it before prices drop means there is tons of undercutting of the lowest price. Now that the prices are dropping- the RMTers who are sitting on their money can buy 1000 copies of the item instead of 100s. And when the banner ends and the supply no longer is coming- the price gouging from them will last 10x as long as their stock is much larger. That's just how they work.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

@Miraglyth said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

I still don't understand why this would happen more with a returning set than it would a new set. Can you explain that?

Players know the perceived value of a returning set by the price on the auction house. Say pole dance which is currently at 70m

Everyone knew Pole Dance would command the greatest of inflated post-availability value long before it stopped being available. Anyone who can't tell that sort of thing in advance is critically failing to understand our market, and not a realistic cause of the manipulation that's already known to be rife without any sets having ever returned.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

whales would love to jump on those tickets in hopes to get it via real money and immediately sell it for meseta before prices drop

I don't follow. You mean if it were to return, whales would be able to buy it before it returned even though it couldn't be bought because it hasn't returned yet? That doesn't make any sense.

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

knowing they must sell it before prices drop means there is tons of undercutting of the lowest price.

As soon as an AC scratch is known to be returning, the price will drop. That doesn't mean there'll be more manipulation. The fact that something that returns existed before (except on Ship 3 in some instances!) means there's a naturally higher supply, meaning more resilience to manipulation than a comparable new item!

@MoldyAsp33874 said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

Now that the prices are dropping- the RMTers who are sitting on their money can buy 1000 copies of the item instead of 100s

It sounds like what you're most concerned about is not players' ability to manipulate AC scratch sets (which I remain thoroughly unconvinced would be open to more manipulation than a new set) but just some players having a ton of meseta lying around to control the economy with no matter the source of a desired item.

When it comes down to it, people who want to be greedy and buy up everything like that will do it regardless of the prices. But new people would still have a chance to get things then which is important.

The problem is the greed and selfishness of those buying everything up to drive up prices/demand versus allowing more people a chance to get something they may really want for a fair price.

Your main argument is in reference to rich players and what they have and what they can do and it all just boils down to greed.

As someone else who does sell AC items and older things, I'd still rather see people have more chances to get things.

My most precious item on the Japanese server was an outfit that came out before I started playing. It was for sale in a Japanese player's shop, but I was new and had no way to afford it. I asked, despite the language barrier and little Japanese I knew, if they could hold it for me. To my surprise, they gave me it for free. I love that outfit. It's the outfit I wear 99% of the time when I play on the Japan server (and the one in my avatar).

I would love to see more generosity like that versus people fighting to control as much of the market as they can.

Even if this "market manipulation" were a real issue, we're what... 3-4 months in the game? If we had the chance to purchase missed scratches now, 4 years down the line I'm sure the prices of said items will be the same price. Nobody cares about virtual currency, SEGA cares about real currency.

It's up to them to decide if they want our money or not. Whether or not they give us PC players an equal chance to get those items is not going to make or break the game for me. We wouldn't have had this predicament in the first place if they didn't "xbox only beta test" which makes no sense to me, as the game has been on PC in JP since the beginning!

Whales care about virtual currency. They spend money from their pockets to get meseta ingame. Sega hasn't really shown they want or deserve our(my) money though. Removing the existing censorship would be enough for me to start throwing my money in- but other things I would really like to see is- some assurance that certain risque non-licensed cosmetics will still come to NA such as Wet Bath Towel F...- given current censorship it points towards certain outfits missing entirely from the game. . . translation fixes/ right now some stuff feels straight machine translated and it is just awful. I don't mind terminology being changed such as darkers to falspawn or emergency quests to urgent quests. But there is typo after typo and grammatical errors abound everywhere you look. - It would also be nice for flavor text on some items to return. But as I said- removing censorship is enough for my money. Everyones money has a different value to them- those that go after progression will be the ones whaling for meseta to minmax.

@Xurai said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

we're what... 3-4 months in the game? If we had the chance to purchase missed scratches now, 4 years down the line I'm sure the prices of said items will be the same price.

I tried to make this point earlier but this makes it better.

Moreover, one argument I've seen before is that we've had 3-4 months to buy these items before they became hyper-inflated (which is certainly not true for some items which already were by PC launch). But surely that also means people worried about the hyper-inflated meseta value of their hoarded items have also had 3-4 months to sell them before the temporary devaluation that a re-run would cause?

I just like the idea of everyone being able to have a fair opportunity to get the items they want without paying a fortune (This includes Scratch items).... And as for the previous ppl that worked hard to purchase said items (me being one of them) Im all for items coming back out again... wont phase me none.... And yes im one of those that have already spent $100s of dollars AND Meseta on this game already....

So yes please bring back missed items for us PC players... ❤

@LoliStelleia I wish I could like this post.

If I was in the position of the xbox players and Sega decided to relaunch sratches that PC players missed out on, I'd simply take all the stuff off my personal shop and sit tight on it. Once it goes out of rotation again the prices will be driven up yet again.

You have to remember there are the people who gave up trying to deal with the Microsoft store and will play when it's on other platforms so chances are you'll have a wave of new and existing people who will want these older releases.

I'd like for them to do a "Re-Fresh finds shop" if you will, that has returning fresh finds items since they're unsellable anyway, or maybe the Treasure Shop from the Japanese version selling them separately from their sales packages, I wanted to get the beast face and didn't know it had already dropped with the entire Tylor set 2 days before the NA version dropped for PC

@Zenny said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

@LoliStelleia I wish I could like this post.

Me too! It's a good sentiment, an inclusive mindset and ultimately more revenue for our server.


@Website-Offline said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

I'd like for them to do a "Re-Fresh finds shop" if you will

Refresh Finds! I love it! 👍


@Website-Offline said in Regarding Pre-PC Items...:

I wanted to get the beast face and didn't know it had already dropped with the entire Tylor set 2 days before the NA version dropped for PC

This is true, but just to be clear: Both the Universe sets (Ethan & Karen and the Airboard emote, and the Tylor Replica M and F sets) were special SG Shop sales rather than Fresh Finds, so they lasted about 2-3 days each.

Not trying to be pedantic. Just wanted to note that if they brought Fresh Finds content back it would not include these sets - they would need to be re-run separately.