Difference between 13-star wands?

@Novaline You completely missed the point of my post, which is why I told you to read it again, lol. Instead you complained about padding in Rockbear when it's irrelevant. Rockbear is a valid tool. I'll say it again: it's not about flexing DMG.

I still don't know what people hope for with parsers, in PSO2 it's always gonna be anecdotal at best, especially cause Overparse is not providing you with the proper tools to analyse.

I know i don't ever want to see it come here and i pray nobody makes and effort to make it available, but damn it's gonna be funny seeing parse threads here and laughing at medicore players.

Te is one of the beefiest classes just by having access to beef deband, fornis really just feels overkill. If you need Lifesteal, get it but this argument is stupid.

Yes dying is dps loss, so is getting hit. So by playing sloppy due to the added safety net, I argue Fornis makes you lazy and by extension lose dps.

See how dumb this argument is? The only sensible answer here is to provide sheet numbers and let people decide what they wanna gear towards.

Fornis sacrifices 8% damage for 50 Hp per hit, isn't really galaxy brain, every player has to decide if they need that Hp.

But i digress. I came here to laugh at parse shills.

But i digress. I came here to laugh at parse shills.

Ok?

You seem to really dislike parse for your own personal reasons, but even some casual players appreciate the fact that Overparse (and there's another parse that also does better breakdowns of DPS, forgetting the name) do help people improve with their class by seeing what they could do better.

You keep saying you don't want to see it here, that's cool and all, but people will find a way because we already have people using hack tools as is in the game. It's inevitable.

Also Jesus Christ, how many threads have to be derailed from the original topic at hand? You people seriously point out one thing and go ham on it while ignoring the actual question. Stop.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Megiverse is really not a good counterargument because that Megiverse cast could be a Zanverse, and if you are in a downphase, you almost certainly should be using Zanverse as a priority over topping kids off (because I assume we're discussing optimal DPS tactics here).

Your argument is that using Fornis over Nemesis is desirable because of that 50 HP heal. I never said to use megiverse on a down phase, clearly you keep misconstruing my words/points. You use Megiverse when you get hit to quickly heal, much faster than Fornis could ever hope to heal you. Clearly you use Zanverse on a down phase, there's no arguing that. Even if you got up on the start of a down phase, you still charge Zanverse. When a boss is pulling away, or about to pull away you can quickly one-tap megiverse and the zanverse ticks will heal you.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Imagine not even needing to cast Megiverse ever, though. I'm sure the time not casting it adds up. You aren't just comparing Fornis to Nemesis raw here, you'd also need to calculate all the damage lost by Zanverse not being active for those moments you decided to use Megiverse which I'm sure closes the gap even further, quite possibly even overtakes (which was my entire original point, Fornis simply has utility that Nem/Slave lacks that can in ways bring it ahead).

Again, one-tap megiverse, meaning UNCHARGED MEGIVERSE executes so fast, that the downtime makes little to no difference. Fornis will never beat nemesis, no matter how much you try to preach that it could.

You know what people buy Fornis for? Phrase Weak. Using it is a joke, and it promotes bad play, as Macmaxi has said.

@Macmaxi said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Te is one of the beefiest classes just by having access to beef deband, fornis really just feels overkill. If you need Lifesteal, get it but this argument is stupid.

Yes dying is dps loss, so is getting hit. So by playing sloppy due to the added safety net, I argue Fornis makes you lazy and by extension lose dps.

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Also Jesus Christ, how many threads have to be derailed from the original topic at hand? You people seriously point out one thing and go ham on it while ignoring the actual question. Stop.

I've already laid out that Nemesis is the obvious choice to invest in over any of the other wands, you have as well. We're all just circlejerking a dumb argument at this point.

@Novaline Just that i didn't ignore the original question, i tried showing that player performance should be looked at seperately when there has been discussion about "how much dps do you gain / lose by having lifesteal" . In reality that's gonna be different for a variety of situations.

And yes i know even that old 2 year old version of Overparse that uses an even older version of the damagedump plugin is still gonna work in NA, because Sega never bothered to stop it from working. I have never seen anyone use ACT to find out some actual fun data that could be used for something other "haha number big" like damage breakdown by PA that can be compared to other players to figure out what their habits are and what people prefer to use and the results of it.

For this stuff rockbear is more than sufficient, granted the frozen version would help.

@Lapinoire said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Megiverse is really not a good counterargument because that Megiverse cast could be a Zanverse, and if you are in a downphase, you almost certainly should be using Zanverse as a priority over topping kids off (because I assume we're discussing optimal DPS tactics here).

Your argument is that using Fornis over Nemesis is desirable because of that 50 HP heal. I never said to use megiverse on a down phase, clearly you keep misconstruing my words/points. You use Megiverse when you get hit to quickly heal, much faster than Fornis could ever hope to heal you. Clearly you use Zanverse on a down phase, there's no arguing that. Even if you got up on the start of a down phase, you still charge Zanverse. When a boss is pulling away, or about to pull away you can quickly one-tap megiverse and the zanverse ticks will heal you.

No, you absolute simpleton. I said it's competitive, and in some cases can be viewed as better depending on the situation. I'm not misconstruing any of the dumb misguided tripe you're spewing in this thread. You are going to do everything in your power to downplay the value of Fornis, I get it, but you don't know the value in practical terms and it's as simple as that. I'm saying the value, to a degree, cannot be calculated. You have no argument for that other than what a Techter "ought" to do in X or Y situations, which is basically just trying to make things up to support your own narrative.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Imagine not even needing to cast Megiverse ever, though. I'm sure the time not casting it adds up. You aren't just comparing Fornis to Nemesis raw here, you'd also need to calculate all the damage lost by Zanverse not being active for those moments you decided to use Megiverse which I'm sure closes the gap even further, quite possibly even overtakes (which was my entire original point, Fornis simply has utility that Nem/Slave lacks that can in ways bring it ahead).

Again, one-tap megiverse, meaning UNCHARGED MEGIVERSE executes so fast, that the downtime makes little to no difference. Fornis will never beat nemesis, no matter how much you try to preach that it could.

You know what people buy Fornis for? Phrase Weak. Using it is a joke, and it promotes bad play, as Macmaxi has said.

Phrase weak is what closes the gap, damage-wise, with Slave/Nem. I thought we would be under the obvious assumption that anyone using a Fornis of course has gone to the minimum of getting Phrase Weak on it. Redundant point you've made here.

@Macmaxi said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Te is one of the beefiest classes just by having access to beef deband, fornis really just feels overkill. If you need Lifesteal, get it but this argument is stupid.

Yes dying is dps loss, so is getting hit. So by playing sloppy due to the added safety net, I argue Fornis makes you lazy and by extension lose dps.

Maxmaxi's "argument" is an excercise in subjective dimwittism. Fornis makes you lazy because of a safety net? That's the air tight argument? Lol, what a joke. You can't definitively state what does and doesn't make a player "lazy" in combat. You don't play everyone's character. I certainly don't play "lazy" just because I put a Fornis on. Like, the fact you put any stock in this absolutely imbecilic argument really just defunds and hurts the integrity of the rest of your argument.

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Also Jesus Christ, how many threads have to be derailed from the original topic at hand? You people seriously point out one thing and go ham on it while ignoring the actual question. Stop.

I've already laid out that Nemesis is the obvious choice to invest in over any of the other wands, you have as well. We're all just circlejerking a dumb argument at this point.

If the goal of the thread is to decide which wand to invest, my answer would be that there are multiple wands worth investing in, and would then explain the different values between them (Form, Fornis, and Slave/Nem). Instead you come in here chief autist who can't seem to fathom how a potential that essentially negates the need for you to ever heal can be useful.

I'm retiring from this thread, though, I get enough lunacy at work trying to explain common sense to plenty of other adults on the daily, probably unnecessary for me to subject myself to the same pain on a hobby forum.

Yeah, if you get that agitated i recommend taking a step back. But it's good that you agree with me that my argument was stupid, which was the point of it. Showing that trying to have a discussion about lifesteal without context is kind of pointless because theres gonna be a million different cases where every trait you get from your weapon is going to have varying degrees of weight in terms of how useful they are.

Techer remains a support class, that is natively good at healing (as is every class with access to techs and by extension to Megiverse), but if you don't want to cast resta or megiverse or use a mate / atomizer (with ring) then yes you can get your fornis. It's important to note though that every normal attack you do afterwards is going to put a nem user further ahead ever so slightly. And you would never pass it, if there wasn't damage to be healed in the first place.

@Zipzo You're not arguing anymore, you're just screaming for no reason. Like some crazy guy out in the middle of a park yelling to the heavens at the top of his lungs because he forgot to study for a test or something trivial.

You haven't addressed most of my points, you continue to pull up other things unrelated to what i've put forth, and once again, Phrase Weak does not make Fornis compete with Nemesis. The fact that you can put Phrase weak on Nemesis would make Nemesis stronger. Yet you have the nerve to call my points "strawmanning" when you haven't put anything of value on the table. You continue to say "FORNIS IS COMPETITIVE WITH NEMESIS" only because of its Hp restoration ability, and you have literally no other argument.

There's really no point in replying to you, either, but i'll humor you anyway.

Let me paint this(hypothetical)situation for you. Two techers, one using Fornis, one using Nemesis. Both have 1,300 HP (after Deband Toughness). Both Techers simultaneously take exactly 1,000 damage from Profound Darkness' "claw" appendage's grab attack.

  • Because of Nemesis' damage reduction shield potential, the Nemesis player only takes 400 damage. The Nemesis player quickly taps megiverse and releases it in a 0.5 second window, immediately tapping Grants once hitting 8,000 damage. In less than 1 second, the Nemesis player heals 1,800 HP, healing all the HP they lost in an instant. The "mouth" appendage jabs them for 700 damage 2 seconds later, and the Nemesis player survives with 600 Health remaining.
  • The Fornis player doesn't do the same, instead opting to repeatedly hit the appendages on Profound Darkness, healing 50+30 HP per hit. It takes 2 seconds to swing 3 times, thus resulting in +240 HP every 2 seconds. But before the Fornis player manages to heal to full, the "Mouth" appendage jabs them for 700 HP, and the Fornis player dies before they can heal to full.

There's literally no backing up something like this. Fornis only works against bosses that only hit once every few seconds, much like Elder. But against bosses that attack numerous times, and have various means of hitting you, Fornis completely falls apart.

Man, this thread has been a helluva trip boys. Thanks for the popcorn

tl;dr for those who showed up late:

  • Nemesis Cross is the best DPS per investment.

  • Form Scythe is only good on Te/Hu, but for cost and a marginal increase over Nemesis, absolutely not worth the effort

  • Nemesis gets a significant advantage over other weapons due to the survivability it adds

  • Understanding that effective DPS increases (by casting techniques) when you have Nemesis provided you are not a mouthbreather who afks during non-melee phases on a boss while other weapons lag behind. This is because of the -20% cost.

  • Even if we assume Lapin's numbers are rough, the Rockbear example shows that other subs can yield more damage via Nemesis and better utilize the bonus provided by the weapon. Many people sub /Hu specifically to avoid oneshots or have one-shot "insurance" while Nemesis provides that innately just by unlocking the potential. This should give you more freedom to explore things like /Fi or /Su which both have advantages, with /Su being an intermediary between survivability and damage while /Fi (due to it's additional scaling of casted Techiques) is the all in option for damage provided you can compensate with player skill.

Not trying to stir up any more conflict here but I will say this much: one solid argument I have against Nemesis Cross is that it requires a massive amount of DEX to equip it, which means either you kill your Mag utility by making it a DEX mule JUST to equip this wand, or you sacrifice a ton of class/subclass skill points investing in DEX boosts that could have been put towards MEL, TEC, or a number of actual skills to boost overall damage output. I'm looking at it right now and I am 72 DEX short even with the Braver title boost. Maxing Bouncer would give me another 30 but that's still 42 more to go. Granted my Techer isn't even level 60 yet and maybe I'll make up those 42 points by 75 if I also dump stat points into my Summoner Subclass' DEF/DEX boost but you get what I'm saying. It's a limitation that requires the class to dump a lot of skill points (or Mag points) into a stat that is utterly useless for the class in literally any other respect.

I mean, maybe if you were running Te/Bo for the DEX to MEL and TEC Mag skill (assuming that's not a "main class only" skill) all those DEX points might be marginally useful but near as I can tell Bouncer is otherwise completely worthless as a subclass to techer, so again you'd be making a significant sacrifice just to equip this one weapon that will eventually be replaced (since there are still 14- and 15- star weapons yet to come).

Now, obviously it IS possible to equip this Wand as this discussion would have ended long ago if that stat requirement was completely prohibitive, I just have to ask overall is the Nemesis/Slave Cross really worth that cost? I mean if it is, great, more power to you.

You should max out both classes in level first then think about equipping weapons to be honest, considering Nemesis is the best thing to use currently it is not suprising you are expected, with Te/Fi and all class bonuses maxed i overshoot by 50 dex, although that's partly due to me being cast.

Generally these days you wont have to worry about equip conditions if you just max everything, there was a time where you could run into trouble, but that was in the old days.

Most wands start using DEX requirement later on, sooooo you'd still have to just suck it up and level your classes. Doesn't disprove that Nemesis isn't the better choice atm.