Difference between 13-star wands?

@Thrashinuva

TL:DR below.

You know, at this point, there's really no point in arguing about this whole thing(nor breaking down various points), because all of this can be debunked by a simple argument.

You will not be able to hit a boss with wand smacks 100% of the time, no matter how skilled you are.

If you can't hit a boss with wand smacks on Form, regardless of Ilzonde, Safoie t0, Heavy Hammer, to close gaps, you're automatically losing DPS.

Form DPS may be higher than Nemesis on a boss that is downed, but what does that matter? You're still behind the hybrid techer by a few million damage because they can hit the boss 100% of the time, and you simply cannot do the same as TeHu. Just because a weapon does better in one scenario does not make it better in every aspect.

I feel like i'm a broken record at this point because Form is just not worth it. If you have it, good on you, go ahead and use it. For anyone else, wasted effort, wasted resources, and most TeHu players are terrible at the game anyway, so they're still gonna be on the bottom of the DPS. With Episode 4 right around the corner and Lavis potentially existing on NA in August, why invest in Form, right?

Fornis is viable, yes, and i'd recommend it to any casual player for sure for its ease of access, power, and survivability, but if anyone actually wants to play Techer seriously, Nemesis will be recommended 200% of the time, until we get better options.

TL:DR - Form is only good on boss down phases. Nemesis is superior to all other currently-released wands on NA in 99% of situations.

I don't have it, and I'm not willing to spend so much to get it, and if I did get it I'd probably sell it. It's certainly not worth 180 mil to me. The point of discussion is which deals more damage. I use Fornis precisely because I valued the price to performance ratio higher than the actual total end performance. Maybe I'll switch to Nemesis later on, but more than likely I'll just wait until I get one as a drop.

But you can't exactly claim 100% up time using techs, can you? To be fair, Techer has very high up time with techs, with PP Conversion and Restorate. But eventually you run out, and then what do you do? How do you calculate the time it takes to chase the enemy down from your distance position in order to restore your PP? How do you know how to equate between the two? Where's your formula showing that there's not enough boss down time to justify weaker tech performance?

If your only point here ultimately boils down to "Nemesis is a much more worthy investment than Form Scythe", I can't say I disagree, but it isn't really the point of the discussion at hand. You could say that it's relevant to the original post, but not that it lays down any smash down argument over the poster who said it was "one of the best".

@Thrashinuva said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

But you can't exactly claim 100% up time using techs, can you? To be fair, Techer has very high up time with techs, with PP Conversion and Restorate. But eventually you run out, and then what do you do? How do you calculate the time it takes to chase the enemy down from your distance position in order to restore your PP? How do you know how to equate between the two? Where's your formula showing that there's not enough boss down time to justify weaker tech performance?

There's a concept called "proper positioning". On fights like Deus, a techer hybrid can casually lock onto Deus' core and spam the living hell out of Grants. Then wand smack when he drops down close enough. That alone would put a hybrid at a much larger gap than melee-only techer. Not to mention, Deus' vulnerable phases come often enough that you likely wouldn't run out of PP, especially if you pause for a second for restorate to restore 50+ PP.

For an even better example, considering on NA we have Elder, a hybrid techer can reliably hit Elder's forehead pimple for much higher damage than a melee techer can do by hitting the clasped hands, until the arms extend. Reposition when arms extend out, and tech charge parry the next incoming attack. There's a giant list of what you can do properly-- managing your resources properly is considered a skill, after all.

Furthermore, Nemesis Cross reduces PP cost by 20%, further contributing to higher amounts of tech usage.

@Thrashinuva said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

If your only point here ultimately boils down to "Nemesis is a much more worthy investment than Form Scythe", I can't say I disagree, but it isn't really the point of the discussion at hand. You could say that it's relevant to the original post, but not that it lays down any smash down argument over the poster who said it was "one of the best".

It's a far more worthy investment compared to any of the other wands. The original intent of the post was to find out what wand was worth investing in, as a TeFi. I believe i've provided sufficient evidence as to what would be the best investment.

You sure use a lot of words to support a pretty flawed perspective.

  1. First of all, being lvl 90 does effect things because of the scaling level of class potency (a huge variation in stats). So yes, it is different.

  2. I never said Nemesis wasn't the best Wand, I said Fornis is competitive, with quotations around my use of the word "better". You basically posted 3 long posts of nothing but a strawman argument, congratulations.

  3. You use Rockbear tests and current market values on your own ship almost exclusively to make your point which is peak hilarious.

  4. As Thrashinuva pointed out, your comparisons bare out a great deal of flaws in your chosen method of testing. Your % differences can be accounted for in mere moments of higher optimal play. While I recognize that Nemesis is ultimately the highest potency Wand available, it doesn't mean a Nemesis user is always out-damaging a Fornis user, because no two players are of the same skill in footsie-ing the mob. You can have all the gear you want but it means jack if you're eating dirt most of the time. This gap is much more achievably closed when using Fornis than, say, using a 9* weapon. That was really my point, because on top of an easy-to-close gap in damage, you have the inherent heal-per-hit effect which provides a staggering level of sustainability that is simply not existent on other wands of it's tier. I personally believe that sustainability is a feature that inadvertently leads to more damage that is not calculable in a silly rockbear damage test because obvious reasons. That was really the point I was making.

So unless you have some kind of way to measure the DPS gain of not having to Resta or use a material as often, you wasted a lot of time trying to appear authoritative on this situation by doing nothing more than posting a bunch of screenshots that are essentially false equivalences.

You definitely earn the "try-hard" title, but in all the wrong ways.

@Thrashinuva said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Techer has very high up time with techs, with PP Conversion and Restorate

You shouldn't be maxing out PP Restorate (only 1 point is really recommended) and PPC. Unless you're Te/Fo (but why?) you cannot benefit from PPC and PPR truly since you do not have PP Charge Revival (Force tree). So if you run out of PP on a hybrid Te, like Te/Fi, and you cannot whack anything in sight, you're pretty much SOL until you can regen some PP back by doing absolutely nothing. No PP batteries exist yet, no idea when we'll get Orbit.

To the OP, Nemesis Cross would be your best choice. The difference in damage between Fornis and Nemesis is 8%, in favor of Nemesis Cross.

@Lapinoire

Form is just not worth it. If you have it, good on you, go ahead and use it.

+1; It's only really useful for Te/Hu, but nevermind the fact that it's near impossible to drop one and buying one for 130m+ when Lavis Cannon will be around in 2-3 months is beyond dumb. Form is an unrealistic wand to obtain.

Nemesis Cross is a lot easier to get now that with the 2 month downtime until Ep4 you can sit and farm UltQ for a chance at it (and if you drop something else you can still make $$$). Fornis is from seasonals and are bought up for SAF fodder. Also Nemesis is used in an upgrade later on, so..

@Zipzo

So unless you have some kind of way to measure the DPS gain of not having to Resta or use a material as often, you wasted a lot of time trying to appear authoritative on this situation by doing nothing more than posting a bunch of screenshots that are essentially false equivalences.

No one can accurately compare DPS at the moment, there is no working parse for this game. Rockbear parsing is the dumbest thing to try and argue with, especially since the situation is an unrealistic one. The only other way to measure DPS is with DPS calculators online, and mathematics. This is still on-paper DPS, but the numbers don't lie.

595a34bc-19de-48a6-b21c-dec62098a7d3-image.png Source: https://pso2c.kyata.work/-MAOum4nJwUKvy4gA15C

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

@Thrashinuva said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Techer has very high up time with techs, with PP Conversion and Restorate

You shouldn't be maxing out PP Restorate (only 1 point is really recommended) and PPC. Unless you're Te/Fo (but why?) you cannot benefit from PPC and PPR truly since you do not have PP Charge Revival (Force tree). So if you run out of PP on a hybrid Te, like Te/Fi, and you cannot whack anything in sight, you're pretty much SOL until you can regen some PP back by doing absolutely nothing. No PP batteries exist yet, no idea when we'll get Orbit.

To the OP, Nemesis Cross would be your best choice. The difference in damage between Fornis and Nemesis is 8%, in favor of Nemesis Cross.

@Lapinoire

Form is just not worth it. If you have it, good on you, go ahead and use it.

+1; It's only really useful for Te/Hu, but nevermind the fact that it's near impossible to drop one and buying one for 130m+ when Lavis Cannon will be around in 2-3 months is beyond dumb. Form is an unrealistic wand to obtain.

Nemesis Cross is a lot easier to get now that with the 2 month downtime until Ep4 you can sit and farm UltQ for a chance at it (and if you drop something else you can still make $$$). Fornis is from seasonals and are bought up for SAF fodder. Also Nemesis is used in an upgrade later on, so..

@Zipzo

So unless you have some kind of way to measure the DPS gain of not having to Resta or use a material as often, you wasted a lot of time trying to appear authoritative on this situation by doing nothing more than posting a bunch of screenshots that are essentially false equivalences.

No one can accurately compare DPS at the moment, there is no working parse for this game. Rockbear parsing is the dumbest thing to try and argue with, especially since the situation is an unrealistic one. The only other way to measure DPS is with DPS calculators online, and mathematics. This is still on-paper DPS, but the numbers don't lie.

595a34bc-19de-48a6-b21c-dec62098a7d3-image.png Source: https://pso2c.kyata.work/-MAOum4nJwUKvy4gA15C

Oh I'm anxiously awaiting an "overparse" NA version. Trust me.

Again, not disagreeing that Nemesis is a stronger wand from a mathematical standpoint. I simply believe that Fornis gains DPS through it's utility and this is not easily measured. In my, of course, subjective opinion I believe that the gain is substantial to the point of closing any real gap between Fornis and Slave, and this is coming from someone who has both in his inventory.

When I am not using Fornis, I really notice it, and it changes my playstyle, and while "feeling" is not mathematical, I never made by argument on the basis of math, in fact I submitted that Fornis is mathematically behind, but we all know very damn well that math flies out the window a vast majority of the time when were discussing margins of potential error, player skill, and utility potentials.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?: Source: https://pso2c.kyata.work/-MAOum4nJwUKvy4gA15C

Oh I'm anxiously awaiting an "overparse" NA version. Trust me.

Again, not disagreeing that Nemesis is a stronger wand from a mathematical standpoint. I simply believe that Fornis gains DPS through it's utility and this is not easily measured. In mt, of course, subjective opinion I believe that the gain is substantial to the point of closing any real gap between Fornis and Slave, and this is coming from someone who has both in his inventory.

When I am not using Fornis, I really notice it, and it changes my playstyle, and while "feeling" is not mathematical, I never made by argument on the basis of math, in fact I submitted that Fornis is mathematically behind, but we all know very damn well that math flies out the window a vast majority of the time when were discussing margins of potential error and player skill.

My reason why I dislike Fornis as a weapon is the same reason why I hate Hunter as a subclass (ironically I'm only on Te/Hu atm due to no tech crafts T_T) and that's because it becomes a crutch to new players. When you switch off Fornis onto another weapon that doesn't have that lifesteal, it's going to hit different. Same thing can be said about Hunter subclass, once you lose that Iron Will you're going to be shaken.

Also, I like that you mentioned this specifically " but we all know very damn well that math flies out the window a vast majority of the time when were discussing margins of potential error and player skill", this is pretty much true to a t. You can have all the BiS units and weapons with whale affixes and it won't mean a damn to a person who has flawless gameplay and skill.

Source: You could probably search for people clearing content in PSO2 with 1* weapons on Youtube or Twitter. It's actually really interesting to watch those kinds of videos.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

  1. First of all, being lvl 90 does effect things because of the scaling level of class potency (a huge variation in stats). So yes, it is different.

Level 90 does have an effect on damage, but one thing remains constant: the power of the wands. From level 75 to level 90, you just need to plugin the numbers and you'll still get the same result. Is that so difficult to understand?

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

  1. I never said Nemesis wasn't the best Wand, I said Fornis is competitive, with quotations around my use of the word "better". You basically posted 3 long posts of nothing but a strawman argument, congratulations.

Strawman argument? I laid out a lot of things clear enough, both numerical and visual evidence. Even if it's not 100% accurate due to varying circumstances in actual combat, it's still more accurate than just straight up saying "FORNIS IS ONLY 1% WEAKER THAN NEMESIS!". If what i've posted is considered "strawman", then I wonder what someone saying "Fornis is only 1% weaker than Nemesis" could possibly be.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

  1. You use Rockbear tests and current market values on your own ship almost exclusively to make your point which is peak hilarious.
  • I can't post detailed parses for rather obvious reasons.
  • I checked ship 1, 2, and 3. I have characters on ship 2 and 3, 1 I had someone else check. The prices change daily, but it tends to remain a constant. Ship 3 is a little behind due to the fact that ship 3 was made available later than 1 and 2. So no, it's not "current market values for my own ship", it's all 3. Or did you miss that somehow?

Also a reminder that on JP, Rockbear has a frozen mode setting. Rockbear also generally represents a down phase, not actual combat. Boss down phases are obviously important solely because you get to deal uninterrupted DPS. If you fail to understand that, then what are we even arguing about? Aside from the fact that PSO2NA does not have Frozen mode on Damage Tally Practice, it's still the same thing in essence, nothing else was changed about it.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

  1. As Thrashinuva pointed out, your comparisons bare out a great deal of flaws in your chosen method of testing. Your % differences can be accounted for in mere moments of higher optimal play. While I recognize that Nemesis is ultimately the highest potency Wand available, it doesn't mean a Nemesis user is always out-damaging a Fornis user, because no two players are of the same skill in footsie-ing the mob. You can have all the gear you want but it means jack if you're eating dirt most of the time. This gap is much more achievably closed when using Fornis than, say, using a 9* weapon. That was really my point, because on top of an easy-to-close gap in damage, you have the inherent heal-per-hit effect which provides a staggering level of sustainability that is simply not existent on other wands of it's tier. I personally believe that sustainability is a feature that inadvertently leads to more damage that is not calculable in a silly rockbear damage test because obvious reasons. That was really the point I was making.

One-tap megiverse, hell, even tech charge parry megiverse. Your entire argument suddenly becomes moot. There is a tiny 1 second lapse between your first wand hit, dumping an uncharged megiverse, and hitting with wand again, not enough of a gap to really let Fornis catch up.

As Novaline said, Fornis is a massive crutch, as is Hunter sub. Take away automate and iron skill from people, and suddenly they start eating dirt. While I can agree that any form of lifesteal contributes to indirect higher DPS, Nemesis' secondary potential ensures you can get up to heal, then get back in the fight fast enough that the Fornis user still wouldn't be able to catch up.

Also, uncharged megiverse into uncharged grants is a much faster heal than charging resta, so there's a 3-ish second lapse from Perfect Recovery>Megiverse>Grants before you get back into the fight.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

So unless you have some kind of way to measure the DPS gain of not having to Resta or use a material as often, you wasted a lot of time trying to appear authoritative on this situation by doing nothing more than posting a bunch of screenshots that are essentially false equivalences.

Can't parse on NA yet, nor would I need to because I already know that all Techers that started on NA aren't going to stand on equal footing.

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Rockbear parsing is the dumbest thing to try and argue with, especially since the situation is an unrealistic one.

But it's not? Stationary Rockbear definitely serves it's purpose and gives you a solid ballpark of power differences if you want to test through gameplay rather than through merely sitting down with a calculator (zzzzzz), provided you can be consistent with your own execution. Rockbear is a solid tool. It's analogous to a down phase so that's just something to keep in mind. I just wish NA had the stationary option.

@GrizzlyTrollton said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

Rockbear parsing is the dumbest thing to try and argue with, especially since the situation is an unrealistic one.

But it's not? Stationary Rockbear definitely serves it's purpose and gives you a solid ballpark of power differences if you want to test through gameplay rather than through merely sitting down with a calculator (zzzzzz), provided you can be consistent with your own execution. Rockbear is a solid tool. It's analogous to a down phase so that's just something to keep in mind. I just wish NA had the stationary option.

You cannot tell me that Rockbear parsing is a feasible way of telling how your DPS is when players on Reddit do shit like Gu/Ra just for padding numbers, when in any other scenario it is a garbage class combination. Rockbear parsing is the poorest way to analyze your DPS, because yet again, it is one situation, an unrealistic situation.

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

You cannot tell me that Rockbear parsing is a feasible way of telling how your DPS is when players on Reddit do shit like Gu/Ra just for padding numbers, when in any other scenario it is a garbage class combination. Rockbear parsing is the poorest way to analyze your DPS, because yet again, it is one situation, an unrealistic situation.

Not counting headshot bonus, Non-moving rockbear is similar to a Down Phase on any boss. Elder's arms being outstretched, Luther's clock being peeled open, Deus smashing the ground, Dragon's parts broken, Persona' mask/chest broken, etc. Basically, what Damage Tally Practice serves as is a way to find out what your best DPS rotation is, at least on JP where you can prevent Rockbear from moving.

The classes that Rockbear training typically doesn't apply to would be ranger, gunner, and bow bravers, as the headshot bonus won't always be present for bosses. For every other class, it's fair game. Do as much damage as you can in 20 seconds, much like most boss down phases.

@Lapinoire said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

@Novaline said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

You cannot tell me that Rockbear parsing is a feasible way of telling how your DPS is when players on Reddit do shit like Gu/Ra just for padding numbers, when in any other scenario it is a garbage class combination. Rockbear parsing is the poorest way to analyze your DPS, because yet again, it is one situation, an unrealistic situation.

Not counting headshot bonus, Non-moving rockbear is similar to a Down Phase on any boss. Elder's arms being outstretched, Luther's clock being peeled open, Deus smashing the ground, Dragon's parts broken, Persona' mask/chest broken, etc. Basically, what Damage Tally Practice serves as is a way to find out what your best DPS rotation is, at least on JP where you can prevent Rockbear from moving.

The classes that Rockbear training typically doesn't apply to would be ranger, gunner, and bow bravers, as the headshot bonus won't always be present for bosses. For every other class, it's fair game. Do as much damage as you can in 20 seconds, much like most boss down phases.

Maybe I'm too spoiled by Overparse actually showing me everything rather than how much damage I did in 20s. I get that it's supposed to represent a down phase, but what irks me is when people use this to compare which class is best and other moot points. It's not exactly the Rockbear VR training's fault for this, so I shouldn't be as spiteful about its existence. I just wish we had Overparse soon, as I think the many tools it has might actually help players see where they can improve at.

@Novaline Read my post again. What part of "power difference" did you not comprehend? Padding is irrelevant. If the padding upsets you that much, just aim for the chest or something. It's irrelevant. You'll still see the difference in numbers when testing different equipment. Rockbear serves its purpose. That was the entire point of my post. It's not about flexing how much DMG you can do. It's about testing and comparing weapons, which is what Lapi used it for.

@GrizzlyTrollton said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

@Novaline Read my post again. What part of "power difference" did you not comprehend? Padding is irrelevant. If the padding upsets you that much, just aim for the chest or something. It's irrelevant. You'll still see the difference in numbers when testing different equipment. Rockbear serves its purpose. That was the entire point of my post. It's not about flexing how much DMG you can do. It's about testing and comparing weapons, which is what Lapi used it for.

I'd rather not argue back and forth in this thread with someone who's just going to tell me I didn't read their little bit because blah blah blah. The original topic is about which 13* wand is best for OP, so if you're not here for that then shoo. If you really wanted to nitpick my one point I made, either make an entirely different thread or just DM in private about it. 'Cause it sounds like you want to pick a fight, and I'm not about it sis. 💅

@Lapinoire said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

One-tap megiverse, hell, even tech charge parry megiverse. Your entire argument suddenly becomes moot. There is a tiny 1 second lapse between your first wand hit, dumping an uncharged megiverse, and hitting with wand again, not enough of a gap to really let Fornis catch up.

As Novaline said, Fornis is a massive crutch, as is Hunter sub. Take away automate and iron skill from people, and suddenly they start eating dirt. While I can agree that any form of lifesteal contributes to indirect higher DPS, Nemesis' secondary potential ensures you can get up to heal, then get back in the fight fast enough that the Fornis user still wouldn't be able to catch up.

Also, uncharged megiverse into uncharged grants is a much faster heal than charging resta, so there's a 3-ish second lapse from Perfect Recovery>Megiverse>Grants before you get back into the fight.

@Zipzo said in Difference between 13-star wands?:

So unless you have some kind of way to measure the DPS gain of not having to Resta or use a material as often, you wasted a lot of time trying to appear authoritative on this situation by doing nothing more than posting a bunch of screenshots that are essentially false equivalences.

Can't parse on NA yet, nor would I need to because I already know that all Techers that started on NA aren't going to stand on equal footing.

Megiverse is really not a good counterargument because that Megiverse cast could be a Zanverse, and if you are in a downphase, you almost certainly should be using Zanverse as a priority over topping kids off (because I assume we're discussing optimal DPS tactics here). Imagine not even needing to cast Megiverse ever, though. I'm sure the time not casting it adds up. You aren't just comparing Fornis to Nemesis raw here, you'd also need to calculate all the damage lost by Zanverse not being active for those moments you decided to use Megiverse which I'm sure closes the gap even further, quite possibly even overtakes (which was my entire original point, Fornis simply has utility that Nem/Slave lacks that can in ways bring it ahead).

We'll just have to agree to disagree that Nem somehow outdpses Fornis even if you take a wallop to the face and get knocked out of the fight for several seconds for whatever reason, but that's something that hopefully we can bare out when we finally get parsers working. Nobody is equal footing in an action game where movement and positioning and split-second reflex-timing attacks and counter-attacks are a thing. This isn't chess where a grandmaster can just tell you in your ear what move to take and you'd be emulating him perfectly. Saying is one thing, doing is complete other thing. No two people possess the same level of ability, for better or worse.