October 13 Class Balance Adjustments

Yeah I don't see an obvious change on force either. +30HP is nice, but barta is still very, very weak...

On Lv15 Bujin from Cacoon quest, even against an enemy that's weak to barta(ice) elements, my Barta can deal up to 570 damage per shot, while Foie can deal up to 453.

But remember Barta cost 1 more pp, it is technically single target spell (since it is really hard to get enemies aligned in a straight line), while foie has a big AOE. Also, Foie can lock on on weak points.

@Cakewalk said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

Yeah I don't see an obvious change on force either. +30HP is nice, but barta is still very, very weak...

On Lv15 Bujin from Cacoon quest, even against an enemy that's weak to barta(ice) elements, my Barta can deal up to 570 damage per shot, while Foie can deal up to 453.

But remember Barta cost 1 more pp, it is technically single target spell (since it is really hard to get enemies aligned in a straight line), while foie has a big AOE. Also, Foie can lock on on weak points.

Why force did need a damage boost for single target, the power difference between the techs is actually quite good, barta is just a harder spell to use. It really relies on you being able to counter to build your marker has fast has possible. That bujin run i got down to 46 seconds before this update hit using barta, and was able to do solo Petta's UQ in around 8mins, which was roughly the same has what i could do when it was weak to lighting

Not sure if it was covered here but the technique potency adjustments were visible in-game so we know how much stronger they got.

b9e6f033-7dd6-4411-9465-9c2bf839877d-image.png

Gizonde (~18.5%) followed by Zonde (~15.4%) got the biggest proportional buffs, Barta (12%) and Gibarta (~11.1%) were in the middle while Gifoie (~7.9%) and Foie (~6.3%) got the least.

@Miraglyth said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

Not sure if it was covered here but the technique potency adjustments were visible in-game so we know how much stronger they got.

b9e6f033-7dd6-4411-9465-9c2bf839877d-image.png

Gizonde (~18.5%) followed by Zonde (~15.4%) got the biggest proportional buffs, Barta (12%) and Gibarta (~11.1%) were in the middle while Gifoie (~7.9%) and Foie (~6.3%) got the least.

nice was wondering what the stats were, thanks for this

Wired Lance
    Cutting Layer Potency   620 -> 680
    Turbulent Train Potency 420 -> 480

Partisan
    Cleaving Scythe Potency 850 -> 950
    Uncharged Cleaving Scythe Portion 20 -> 22
    Fatal Tornado Potency 950 -> 1170

Twin Daggers
    Helzeus Coat Potency 420 -> 450

Double Saber
    Quick Gash Potency 660 -> 700

Rifle
    Grenade Potency     400 -> 560
    Trap Potency        500 -> 700
    Spread Shot Potency 60 -> 70
    Spread Shot PP      0 -> 5
    Razing Shot Potency 160 -> 180
    Razing Shot Portion Steps 97/50/25/9/3 -> 97/50/30/12/6

Launcher 
    Fallen Impact Potency 400 -> 500
    Photon Blast Potencies 150/375 -> 180/500

Twin Machinguns
    Basic Attack 3 Potency     75 -> 27
    Basic Attack 3 PP         8 -> 3
    Basic Attack 3 Hit Count 2 -> ???
    Chain Trigger Potency Increase 1%/Chain -> 1.5%/Chain
    Chain Trigger CD               30 -> 15
    Chain Trigger Quick Reload     0.25/Chain -> 0.1/Chain
    Bullet Rave Portions        3.6/2.5/35 & 5.5/2.5/36 -> 3.6/2.5/27/2 & 5.5/2.5/28/2



Force
    HP 210-253 -> 235-283

Talis
    Convergence Shot Potency 150 -> 160
    Spread Shot Potency      410 -> 440

Wand
    Photonic Fury Potency 40 -> 60 (normal and strong)


Techniques
    Foie Potency     240 -> 255
    Gifoie Potency   380 -> 410
    Barta Potency    250 -> 280
    Gibarta Potency  225 -> 250
    Zonde Potency    260 -> 300
    Gizonde Potency  270 -> 320

Braver
    Brave Combat PP Reduction -20% -> -30%
    Brave Combat PP Recovery  +50% -> +100%

Katana
    Silverleaf Storm Potency 210 -> 220

Bow
    Flex Arrow Potency        1080 -> 1150
    Flex Arrow Portion Steps  20/12/6/3/1 -> 20/12/9/6/1
    Frenzied Firework Potency 370 -> 400
    Dimensional Ray Potency   500 -> 550
    Dimensional Ray Uncharged Portion 4.8 -> 5.2

Saved you guys the trouble

@Cathy said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

Wired Lance
    Cutting Layer Potency   620 -> 680
    Turbulent Train Potency 420 -> 480

Partisan
    Cleaving Scythe Potency 850 -> 950
    Uncharged Cleaving Scythe Portion 20 -> 22
    Fatal Tornado Potency 950 -> 1170

Twin Daggers
    Helzeus Coat Potency 420 -> 450

Double Saber
    Quick Gash Potency 660 -> 700

Rifle
    Grenade Potency     400 -> 560
    Trap Potency        500 -> 700
    Spread Shot Potency 60 -> 70
    Spread Shot PP      0 -> 5
    Razing Shot Potency 160 -> 180
    Razing Shot Portion Steps 97/50/25/9/3 -> 97/50/30/12/6

Launcher 
    Fallen Impact Potency 400 -> 500
    Photon Blast Potencies 150/375 -> 180/500

Twin Machinguns
    Basic Attack 3 Potency     75 -> 27
    Basic Attack 3 PP         8 -> 3
    Basic Attack 3 Hit Count 2 -> ???
    Chain Trigger Potency Increase 1%/Chain -> 1.5%/Chain
    Chain Trigger CD               30 -> 15
    Chain Trigger Quick Reload     0.25/Chain -> 0.1/Chain
    Bullet Rave Portions        3.6/2.5/35 & 5.5/2.5/36 -> 3.6/2.5/27/2 & 5.5/2.5/28/2



Force
    HP 210-253 -> 235-283

Talis
    Convergence Shot Potency 150 -> 160
    Spread Shot Potency      410 -> 440

Wand
    Photonic Fury Potency 40 -> 60 (normal and strong)


Techniques
    Foie Potency     240 -> 255
    Gifoie Potency   380 -> 410
    Barta Potency    250 -> 280
    Gibarta Potency  225 -> 250
    Zonde Potency    260 -> 300
    Gizonde Potency  270 -> 320

Braver
    Brave Combat PP Reduction -20% -> -30%
    Brave Combat PP Recovery  +50% -> +100%

Katana
    Silverleaf Storm Potency 210 -> 220

Bow
    Flex Arrow Potency        1080 -> 1150
    Flex Arrow Portion Steps  20/12/6/3/1 -> 20/12/9/6/1
    Frenzied Firework Potency 370 -> 400
    Dimensional Ray Potency   500 -> 550
    Dimensional Ray Uncharged Portion 4.8 -> 5.2

Saved you guys the trouble

Thank you!

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

@Cakewalk said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

Yeah I don't see an obvious change on force either. +30HP is nice, but barta is still very, very weak...

On Lv15 Bujin from Cacoon quest, even against an enemy that's weak to barta(ice) elements, my Barta can deal up to 570 damage per shot, while Foie can deal up to 453.

But remember Barta cost 1 more pp, it is technically single target spell (since it is really hard to get enemies aligned in a straight line), while foie has a big AOE. Also, Foie can lock on on weak points.

Why force did need a damage boost for single target, the power difference between the techs is actually quite good, barta is just a harder spell to use. It really relies on you being able to counter to build your marker has fast has possible. That bujin run i got down to 46 seconds before this update hit using barta, and was able to do solo Petta's UQ in around 8mins, which was roughly the same has what i could do when it was weak to lighting

I don't think the power difference is good enough, not even close.

250/240 is only 4% improvement if we disregard elemental weakness, which can be offset by the fact that Foie cost 1 less pp. If you consider pp recovery effect, it is a difference berween ~7pp and ~8pp per cast, which can be huge while bossing.

Just think about base pso2, how much weaker Gizonde and Rafoie are, compared to ilgrants.

@Cakewalk

Those potency numbers dont take into account the mechanics of each tech. With foie thats all you get is the potency of that attack each time, nothing builds and counter dont add anything except extra damage from the counters itself. Ice in the other hand you need to use uncharged techs to build your blot and counters help build this has well, plus has you are using mainly uncharged techs the pp recovery from counters is a lot more important than it is on foie.

Foie is simply an easier tech to use, you dont have to worry about building marks, positioning is less important has your charged foie will land at where you are targeted from nearly anywhere and you are less reliant on counters to restore your pp and keep your dps up. With barta the opposite is true positioning is very important so you can hit the spot you are targeting, and get counters to build both your mark and max your dps plus maintain your pp. Ive spent a lot of time soloing all the different vet enemies and Petta's UQ under various elements and not once did I see one tech outperform another its was always pretty similar.

Here's a video of me using nothing but ice on bossing for 20mins in the new battledia Purple trigger, I'd watch from 6:30 onwards has that when the fight starts to get interesting, at no point am I having trouble doing dps, and on some bosses was getting aggro even though we had a hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdK5fe2kHeQ&t=1s

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

@Cakewalk

Those potency numbers dont take into account the mechanics of each tech. With foie thats all you get is the potency of that attack each time, nothing builds and counter dont add anything except extra damage from the counters itself. Ice in the other hand you need to use uncharged techs to build your blot and counters help build this has well, plus has you are using mainly uncharged techs the pp recovery from counters is a lot more important than it is on foie.

Foie is simply an easier tech to use, you dont have to worry about building marks, positioning is less important has your charged foie will land at where you are targeted from nearly anywhere and you are less reliant on counters to restore your pp and keep your dps up. With barta the opposite is true positioning is very important so you can hit the spot you are targeting, and get counters to build both your mark and max your dps plus maintain your pp. Ive spent a lot of time soloing all the different vet enemies and Petta's UQ under various elements and not once did I see one tech outperform another its was always pretty similar.

Here's a video of me using nothing but ice on bossing for 20mins in the new battledia Purple trigger, I'd watch from 6:30 onwards has that when the fight starts to get interesting, at no point am I having trouble doing dps, and on some bosses was getting aggro even though we had a hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdK5fe2kHeQ&t=1s

I was talking about mining base defense, where AOE is much more important.

If you are focusing on Gigantix, why not multi-weapon a Frostel rod sub launcher? Launcher has more dps even if you sub ranger, you get free pp regen every 30 sec, multi-launch is really good against bujin, and fallen impact is good against downed enemies.

@Cakewalk said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

@Cakewalk

Those potency numbers dont take into account the mechanics of each tech. With foie thats all you get is the potency of that attack each time, nothing builds and counter dont add anything except extra damage from the counters itself. Ice in the other hand you need to use uncharged techs to build your blot and counters help build this has well, plus has you are using mainly uncharged techs the pp recovery from counters is a lot more important than it is on foie.

Foie is simply an easier tech to use, you dont have to worry about building marks, positioning is less important has your charged foie will land at where you are targeted from nearly anywhere and you are less reliant on counters to restore your pp and keep your dps up. With barta the opposite is true positioning is very important so you can hit the spot you are targeting, and get counters to build both your mark and max your dps plus maintain your pp. Ive spent a lot of time soloing all the different vet enemies and Petta's UQ under various elements and not once did I see one tech outperform another its was always pretty similar.

Here's a video of me using nothing but ice on bossing for 20mins in the new battledia Purple trigger, I'd watch from 6:30 onwards has that when the fight starts to get interesting, at no point am I having trouble doing dps, and on some bosses was getting aggro even though we had a hunter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdK5fe2kHeQ&t=1s

I was talking about mining base defense, where AOE is much more important.

If you are focusing on Gigantix, why not multi-weapon a Frostel rod sub launcher? Launcher has more dps even if you sub ranger, you get free pp regen every 30 sec, multi-launch is really good against bujin, and fallen impact is good against downed enemies.

erm ok, well i wouldnt be using either barta or foie for mobbing in TD UQ. Barta is primarily a single target tech, its just a bonus if you mange to catch another target along the way, foie while better still has a pretty small aoe, and you have to take time to charge it, which isnt great when you can have a lot of mobs wanting to rush past you in quick succession.

By far your best tech for mobbing in TD and mobbing in general is uncharged zonde, it has a huge range, always hits were you are target, a big aoe that can hit many mobs, zero charge time, and its the fastest way to build your clot which basically combines uncharged and charged zonde into a single tech for a nice little damage increase. TD mobbing is all about aggroing mobs with uncharged zonde, detonating zonde clod has often has you can, and if you get the dolls packed tightly enough, switch to ots view and gibarta them down. The only time i use gibarta or foie for mobbing is if ive only got that elemnt packed very tightly together. gifoie can be useful but it means putting yourself right in the middle of the pack, and you can get kncoked around a lot using it.

Launcher def does not have more dps has a sub on force. Even the fastest ranger times on bujin are only a few seconds faster than what i can do, and they have both weak bullet and main class bonus in that run, I would have neither, they also facetank a lot of hits against bujin has you can get away with that in that cocoon which you def cant against giga enemies. Id also lose the abilty to inflict elemental downs, which are free dps phases for everyone in the area. Has you can see from the video despite me being the only one doing elemental downs im able to inflict them has fast has what the rest where able to do on physical downs, so that would be a big dps loss. Force also has some many pp options you dont really need to be using weapons that also give pp. Im not using frostel for a few reasons, for one i have a high fixa attack on my evo talis which i would lose, plus all the affixes i have on it, I'd also lose the 20% PB charge time increase, which with how much damage talis PB does especially when i pair it with photon flare, and the extra damage i get from downed enemies from fighter sub, would be a big lose of dps. Plus if i wanted to mainly use a ranger weapon a would play ranger, not use it has a sub on another class.

@Riesz said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

@Cathy said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

Lets see if Wand doesnt feel bad to use after this one

Unfortunately looks like they didn't change wand that much, it sounds like it will still feel mostly exactly the same.

after playing a little myself i gotta say it does feel better now. the DPS buff (Photonic Fury potency) seems to have been necessary in order to not fall behind Bouncer too much. Normal Attacks are now cancelleable with Weapon Action so they are a much safer attack to use on enemies who are still attacking you. Being able to strafe using Wave is also neat. The buff to Talis seems to have buffed Techs cast from a deployed Talis too so that confirms that these are scaling off of base PA potency which is quite nice. Overall a step in the right direction.

@Cathy I feel like they still need to make changes to Swift Smash though, I don't really get why they went for buffing the normal attack instead of improving the functionality of that Photon Art. It seems more logical for the normal attack to be for applying elemental down factors (because of how spam-able it is), than to make it seem more and more useful than Swift Smash.

There's not even 3 photon arts for wand like most other weapons, so seems silly that one of the 2 it does have keeps seeming worse because they kept it exactly the same while improving everything else. It should function better than the similar PA from Base PSO2 Heavy Hammer, but instead Heavy Hammer still seems better in comparison.

Heavy Hammer had vertical tracking, which Swift Smash does not have, Heavy Hammer had 3 attack stages (uncharged, charged, and overcharged). But Swift Smash only has 2, and the scaling still seems similar for the first charged state from Base PSO2 (aka it could used more damage considering charging slows you down and makes it harder to hit enemies which move quite a lot in NGS).

@Riesz I think swift smash is ok. The idea of it is to use it while the enemy isn't available to attack and you expect him to become available soon. For example waiting for Nex Aelio to stop moving after it receives a Down in order to hit its weakspot. That basically slashes the charge-time entirely from the DPS formula and Swift Smash becomes and 746,40 DPS Attack (adjusted for mainclass bonus) far surpassing normal attack or the other PA. It is a situational PA but so was Heavy Hammer. You cant just keep spamming the first charge stage (the one with highest DPS) because you'd slow down to a snailspace, even slower than charging techs without Sprint Tech Charge.

The lack of vertical tracking is definitely a problem and i wish that'd be taken care of so that i can finally ignore the Multi-weapon system exists. Sega killed it very deliberately during the launch and I cant wait to get things off my chest during the upcoming survey.

What does grind my gears a little is that Bouncer attacks have pretty much comparable DPS to Techter (comparing to DPS numbers of Bo without mainclass boost), but Bouncer attacks trigger Blot and Clad. I don't think there is any reason why Photonic furies or deployed Talis Techs shouldn't be doing the same esp since you still need to use the Tech itself in order to trigger these abilities.

@Cathy Swift Smash is definitely not ok I don't know how you could think it is, it costs too much PP, another thing I forgot to bring up, the Wand Photon Arts should cost less PP (not just Swift Smash, all of them) considering the drawback of the class doing less damage because they're supposed to be more for buffing other players than doing the most damage. Because they sure eat a lot of PP for wand Techter outclassed by well pretty much every other weapon and class.

And also it takes too long to fully charge and moves way too slow to catch up to enemies. If they're not going to buff the damage considering how much risk for so little reward the PA gives, then they have to at the very least make the charging and movement speed of the PA much faster so that it could actually hit things more often, and cost less so that you can actually consistently do that.

At least weapons like Partisan do damage that makes up for the risk of the PAs (some which lock you in animations that aren't so easy to cancel) and the PP cost of them, Wand however does not.

Te/Bo at least makes the elemental down factor part of Techter a little better, but it's still not really fixing the other issues with the Photon Arts of Techter, especially Swift Smash.

I already told you why i think its okay. Also 80 frames (barely over a second) is hardly too long to charge up.

Techter isn't a PA class, the Swift Smash isn't a DPS PA, its a situational Burst PA. Similarlly Heat Wave is a mobbing PA and not a DPS PA, even if it deals more damage than normal attacks rn. Normal Attacks are easier to cancel for Weapon action. Block + counters are far better DPS than doing Wave and getting knocked back because the attack was too long to cancel out or you forego the attack waiting for the enemy to block & counter. Even the Active ability Wand Lovers improves Normal Attacks & not PA. I do agree tho that Wave PP cost is little ridiculous tho but i feel like its purpose is to discourage PA spamming on the normal attack focused class.

@Cathy said in October 13 Class Balance Adjustments:

I already told you why i think its okay. Also 80 frames (barely over a second) is hardly too long to charge up.

Except it is too long because by the time you finish charging it people would have already performed multiple attacks that end up doing much more damage in that time than Swift Smash does (whether from a single hit from higher listed power PAs, or from multiple hit that end up hitting more damage from doing multiple hits at once), and they can continue to use their attacks multiple times before they have to do something to restore PP. And then if the enemy is just out of reach it takes too long for the PA to move in range.

I don't know why they even needed to keep the charging action of the attack from Heavy Hammer, they could have just made it instant cast the full damage attack.

Techter isn't a PA class, the Swift Smash isn't a DPS PA, its a situational Burst PA. Similarlly Heat Wave is a mobbing PA and not a DPS PA, even if it deals more damage than normal attacks rn. Normal Attacks are easier to cancel for Weapon action. Block + counters are far better DPS than doing Wave and getting knocked back because the attack was too long to cancel out or you forego the attack waiting for the enemy to block & counter. Even the Active ability Wand Lovers improves Normal Attacks & not PA. I do agree tho that Wave PP cost is little ridiculous tho but i feel like its purpose is to discourage PA spamming on the normal attack focused class.

Then why even have Swift Smash? They could have just made the normal attack do even more damage than it does now, and not even add Swift Smash. Heck Techter doesn't even need Wave Crash to be it's own PA, they could have just made that part of the normal attack too (maybe having the AoE attack happen at the end of the combo and having the weapon action skip to the end).

Wand just feels clunky the way it is now, when they could have made it an awesome fluid melee weapon that zips around smacking everything in it's path and lighting enemies on fire with ease (like imagine if wand had a special skill that makes your dash attack do less damage, but instead you can just keep momentum and continue to just run around hitting things, instead of the attack canceling the momentum), but it feels like the most clunky weapon in the game.

The characters use them like a 2h sword but don't do the damage of one with them, meanwhile the actual 2h sword is actually pretty fast and even has a mobbing PA that also gives decent maneuverability.