ruining your own experience

Personally, however, I don't think it's helpful to just drop a video link with an unhelpful title without any grounds for a discussion. I am not particularly interested in listening to a thirteen minute video (I would prefer to read an essay, but that's just me) trying to figure out what you're getting at.

In a nutshell for those curious, the video goes into the question of asking "is theorycrafting ruining MMO's?" where playing a game to be as efficiently as possible means you've "skipped the game." The video discusses the nature of how many games have the element of discovery and surprises in games and how many games now have a "post-information age" state where there are guides, tutorials, and potential mechanics/gimmicks all documented, theorycrafted, and explained to a point where it becomes a detriment to not know what is already so available.

In the case of how this relates to New Genesis, I feel the main problem is that the core gameplay loop (the guruguru fields) all hinge on randomness or the alternative of picking up the loot instead from the Personal Shops. There is no complexity or depth in a lot of the classes and gameplay (at least to me) that requires mechanical depth and technical depth that you practice and perfect how you want to approach the game. I don't think guides that players made for classes or how to approach content like grinding equipment are bad but I do believe there is a time and place for the people who use theoretical numbers to shine and a place where "playing the game" really should simply shine. Thankfully, New Genesis does not have the same situation that Phantasy Star Online 2 had where you can't exactly "mess up" your characters and your decisions without a grind (if you make a multi-weapon you regret, you can always make Meseta again later but in the original Phantasy Star Online 2 a poorly configured skill tree is not something you can correct for free due to the nature of the game's support now).

I don't feel like you can win the fight against players who will speedrun the game (Phantasy Star Online 2 is notoriously easy until you hit a few walls in specific quests and everything that was hard at some point was simplified to be easier outside of the final Emergency Quest) or players who try too hard with what we have but I don't think it's their fault they like to push the envelope on something that can't really be pushed when there is not much distance to push towards.

Going off the first reply (since I'm not gonna watch the whole video), I will say that it's a bit of an issue, but I don't think it's the problem of the players or theorycrafters/etc. There's a line of thought that's had a decent amount of stuff written about it / GDC talks about it /etc that breaks down to "if you give them the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game and then complain that you let them do it", which generally applies more to farming/grinding/cheesing mechanics, but I think can apply here too. It's on the developer to make something interesting that the players can't just sideline in favor of some stupid cheesy gameplay that nets them better rewards.

Exploration and discovery are fun and all, but especially in online games, there's always going to be a semblance of competition/desire to be on the top, which means people are going to try to progress their character as much as possible, meaning less extraneous stuff, aka exploration/discovery. Breath of the Wild works because it's a single player game, so you can go at your own pace and not feel like you're falling behind anybody else/wasting your time, but in PSO2 there's always a sensation that says to a lot of people that they're wasting time if they're not grinding for gear.

There's nothing particularly wrong with NGS's open world at the core level, there's just no reason to interact with it, and if there's no reason to, you can't really fault players for skipping it. You gotta force the player to stop doing the boring stuff, but that's the job of a developer, not the duty of a player. For example, add rewards around the world (similar to redboxes/alpha reactors) that you can find via your mag radar, but importantly, with the caveat that it's actually random per player so that people can't just access a website to find their locations, and make that a weekly thing or something like that. Outside of meseta items you could also do stuff like make single-player teleporters that take you to special hardmode weekly solo cocoons/fights or something like that, so that high-end+whale players would still have reason to run outside of the city even if they were swimming in cash.

@VanillaLucia said in ruining your own experience:

Personally, however, I don't think it's helpful to just drop a video link with an unhelpful title without any grounds for a discussion. I am not particularly interested in listening to a thirteen minute video (I would prefer to read an essay, but that's just me) trying to figure out what you're getting at.

In a nutshell for those curious, the video goes into the question of asking "is theorycrafting ruining MMO's?" where playing a game to be as efficiently as possible means you've "skipped the game." The video discusses the nature of how many games have the element of discovery and surprises in games and how many games now have a "post-information age" state where there are guides, tutorials, and potential mechanics/gimmicks all documented, theorycrafted, and explained to a point where it becomes a detriment to not know what is already so available.

In the case of how this relates to New Genesis, I feel the main problem is that the core gameplay loop (the guruguru fields) all hinge on randomness or the alternative of picking up the loot instead from the Personal Shops. There is no complexity or depth in a lot of the classes and gameplay (at least to me) that requires mechanical depth and technical depth that you practice and perfect how you want to approach the game. I don't think guides that players made for classes or how to approach content like grinding equipment are bad but I do believe there is a time and place for the people who use theoretical numbers to shine and a place where "playing the game" really should simply shine. Thankfully, New Genesis does not have the same situation that Phantasy Star Online 2 had where you can't exactly "mess up" your characters and your decisions without a grind (if you make a multi-weapon you regret, you can always make Meseta again later but in the original Phantasy Star Online 2 a poorly configured skill tree is not something you can correct for free due to the nature of the game's support now).

I don't feel like you can win the fight against players who will speedrun the game (Phantasy Star Online 2 is notoriously easy until you hit a few walls in specific quests and everything that was hard at some point was simplified to be easier outside of the final Emergency Quest) or players who try too hard with what we have but I don't think it's their fault they like to push the envelope on something that can't really be pushed when there is not much distance to push towards.

I think you missed the main point of the video and that is, community cohesion. In the video he states why the speed runners approach the game the way that they do and it is to gain an advantage but then shout that their is no content to push the same cycle with no regard for those who don’t want to or can’t. Then (Some not all) push the narrative that their isn’t enough content to entertain the community under the umbrella that the game is going to fail because of this inflated issues. Which is an attempt to boost their personal agenda on their content platform.

Welcome back Rain! How was your vacation?

@n_n Not long enough I think. Should've been until the forums closed.

@The-Merfox Seems like the bans are being lifted on certain accounts, and the timing is just too damn coincidental. Or inconvenient, however you want to look at it.

@The-Merfox said in ruining your own experience:

@n_n Not long enough I think. Should've been until the forums closed.

They'll be gone forever once the forums close. Reddit and Discord won't have their shit on those platforms.

@Anarchy-Marine Yeah, if someone wanted to make a case for the GMs unleashing the bad apples to make a case for shutting the forums down, they'd have an easy time with it.

@Zeke said in ruining your own experience:

@The-Merfox said in ruining your own experience:

@n_n Not long enough I think. Should've been until the forums closed.

They'll be gone forever once the forums close. Reddit and Discord won't have their shit on those platforms.

Reddit actually would more so than these forums. Discord, well no you are right about that.

@The-Merfox yeah. Well that's something that can't be proven. I just wish those getting banned over and over for the same thing, would be permanently banned, because it's people with behavioural patterns such as the ones being unbanned, that caused 90% of the forums issues in the first place. They showed no signs of changing, so why would they start now.


@Zeke said in ruining your own experience:

@The-Merfox said in ruining your own experience:

@n_n Not long enough I think. Should've been until the forums closed.

They'll be gone forever once the forums close. Reddit and Discord won't have their shit on those platforms.


This is actually true.

Posting any NGS Reddit topic with the word "Ban" in it is autosaged into a redirect to the Questions&Help page.


@Anarchy-Marine said in ruining your own experience:

Reddit actually would more so than these forums. Discord, well no you are right about that. @The-Merfox yeah. Well that's something that can't be proven. I just wish those getting banned over and over for the same thing, would be permanently banned, because it's people with behavioural patterns such as the ones being unbanned, that caused 90% of the forums issues in the first place. They showed no signs of changing, so why would they start now.


After the 4chanGate incident Zen stirred up (More like a mass temper tantrum for disciplinary actions), I honestly don't want to see that sort of behavior return again.

But maybe this is also part of SEGA's plan to show investors the issues behind the curtains.

@MasterDarkwingz The issues are a lot more complex than that.

@Anarchy-Marine said in ruining your own experience:

@The-Merfox Seems like the bans are being lifted on certain accounts, and the timing is just too damn coincidental. Or inconvenient, however you want to look at it.

The donkey told the tiger: The grass is blue.

The tiger replied: No, the grass is green​.

The discussion became heated, and the two decided to submit the issue to arbitration, and to do so they approached the lion.

Before reaching the clearing in the forest where the lion was sitting on his throne, the donkey started screaming: ′′Your Highness, isn't it true that the grass is blue?"​

The lion replied: "True, the grass is blue"​.

The donkey rushed forward and continued: ′′The tiger disagrees with me and contradicts me and annoys me. Please punish him"​.

The king then declared: ′′The tiger will be punished with 5 years of silence"​.

The donkey jumped with joy and went on his way, content and repeating: ′′The grass is blue"​..

The tiger accepted his punishment, but he asked the lion: ′′Your Majesty, why have you punished me, after all, the grass is green?"​

The lion replied: ′′In fact, the grass is green"​.

The tiger asked: ′′So why do you punish me?"​

The lion replied:

That has nothing to do with the question of whether the grass is blue or green. The punishment is because it is not possible for a brave, intelligent creature like you to waste time arguing with a donkey, and on top of that to come and bother me with that question

The worst waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who doesn't care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on discussions that make no sense... There are people who for all the evidence presented to them, do not have the ability to understand, and others who are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and the only thing that they want is to be right even if they aren’t. When ignorance screams, intelligence shuts up. Your peace and tranquility are worth more.

So... you're the donkey?