I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...

Lets be fair, I was very hyped for the Braver in NGS, however the way the braver plays is not something I excpected to be honest. It's like they are trying to fit 7 different photon arts into only 4 photon arts. I was expecting that spherical 360 damage area katana attack to be It's own separate chargeable photon art, but instead It's the secondary attack of the double slash photon art.

Whats the point of this mechanic design? It's absolutely pointless, it forces you to combo and does not let you customise your playstyle, I had with the braver in base PSO2. The photon arts in NGS in general just seems to streamline and trying to force different attacks into one photon art, without giving you the option to customise the way you want it.

I'd make the same complaint about the Hunter class, It's not longer a tank class, the Hunter is just a watered down, slow paced braver from base PSO2.

I miss when every attack ability is It's own separate photon art in base PSO2, rather than trying to fit multiple attack abilities into single photon art, it gives you less incentive in customising your class and your abilities. The classes in base PSO2 actualy felt like they have weight and hard hitting effect to every attack, in NGS everything just seems so underpowered (Not from actual damage, but the feel of your attack abilities, It's like they dont have any weight and hard hitting effect into it).

It's like they are trying to fit 7 different photon arts into only 4 photon arts.

Yes, they are. They have been since Phantom, and (at least some of) the classes in NGS also share this design (techniques, fighter, etc.).

Whats the point of this mechanic design?

There are two points:

  • Fitting multiple PAs into one PA streamlines the PA system and reduces the necessity of having multiple pallets for one weapon and PAs on subpal.
  • The different mechanics on how to access those multiple PAs in one PA creates more (and unique) gameplay opportunities, and allows classes to stand apart from each other more than they could otherwise. (Phantom's Shift PAs, Etoile's Skip, Move, and Focus PAs, Luster's Enhance and Move PAs, etc.)

does not let you customise your playstyle

Why not? You can choose which combos to do and when. You can customize your playstyle just as much as you could before, you are just customizing a different playstyle than was given before.

Similarly to my gripes with the Gunner, I'm not particularly excited about the Bow being slowed down and simplified but outside of my preferences I know some friends of mine actually can tolerate the Bow now that it no longer has its rhythm-game timing added to it. The Braver's Katana reminds me very heavily of the old Photon Art Sequences that used to exist in Two-Button mode that the game eventually dropped during Episode 5.

I don't quite see this as problematic because it encourages players to once again play into combos rather than the overly optimal method of "use only the one attack you need" that still exists in New Genesis. I would much rather have a push towards something like Devil May Cry's flurry of combos (attacks leading into attacks to fill in opportunities) rather than the approach we had where at any point you could pick out the one attack you can rely on for every given situation (for example Hero's Rising Slash).

I feel the playstyles are much more flexible in New Genesis than they were in the original game but they also require some more effort because I would argue the Hunter is still very tanky (and much moreso considering they adopted the Etoile's damage resistance as a timed buff). The main difference is that there is very little "no effort" gameplay that is satisfying unless you point to the Ranger (Homing Darts) or the Fighter's Julien Dance before that was fixed as the Hunter's "tankiness" now involves both the player responding accordingly to an enemy attack and learning to pace themselves which is different per enemy present. I like this attempt at depth but I really do feel that we could go much further into the deeper action game setting where I would prefer it to be (the deeper depth hopefully revisiting some of the more tougher aspects of classes such as the Bow's rhythm-game timing for speed-shooting, the Hero and Fighter's rewarding of cycling photon arts and attacks, and the Gunner's mechanical depth and inputs pushing into very powerful burst damage).

But as I see it, Sega has boiled down the "end-game" versions of the classes we know of and brought a lot of those ideas to the beginning for a new game. I really do hope that a lot of the depth we once had comes back in a stronger foundation as I feel the Braver once again using sequences on the katana can hopefully mean something similar in the future (sequence-cutting where you can inter-splice photon arts in the middle of their sequences similarly to our normal attack skip mechanics). In that case, the sheer number of photon art variations would something I would be excited to see especially for players who want "more" attacks.

Edit: I was told by a peer that the katana already works as I mentioned where you can splice photon arts into a sequence to jump to another photon art's sequence so I may be talking about something already implemented. On my end I have only played with the Bow because it is my preferred weapon from the Braver.

The PA's are like this because with the base classes we had a good number of PA's that were just not good enough to put on our bar. SEGA didn't even deem enough PA's to be good enough to warrant a customization through crafting. Scions were their way of putting an end to a crapton of PA's that would never see a hotbar, especially the old PA they phased out for new PA that were just way stronger. A lot of them ended up just used to move around faster than the now gawd awful run speed, including some techniques.

They're eventually going to add more, but I do hope it doesn't end up like the pre-scion era where theres 13 PA for one weapon and 8 of them are trash. Theres no point to that.

I hate what they did to launchers normal attack. I also ate holding charging attacks in this game as they don't deal enough damage to warrant the down time of charging.

@Ki-Rin said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

I hate what they did to launchers normal attack.

I find the normal attack very effective actually.

I also ate holding charging attacks in this game as they don't deal enough damage to warrant the down time of charging.

The point of the charge attacks is actually alternative firing methods and effects rather than damage output. This can be a tricky idea to rap your head around due to the past 40 years of video games training us that charged=bigger damage.

Just looking at the frame data for dps a lot of factors on many of the various attacks are left out. The Bow's charged NA is actually a small AoE while Launcher's charged will do full damage to each target if the bullets hit different targets while having drop off for hitting the same target multiple times.

@ultimatecalibur AFAIK charged attacks do all have higher DPS than the uncharged version. Maybe not damage per tick though.

@Charus It's the sound. Everything feels kinda muffled and stretched in NGS. Compare Razing Shot to Positron. Much stronger feedback from landing Positron compared to charged Razing. The uncharged double-tap actually feels stronger if you ignore numbers since it travels faster and has a more punchy firing sound. Perfect guards and dodges also sound anemic compared to the originals. Hu sword guard counters now have most of their feedback from the visual of the startup flip before N5 lands, whereas before it was from the solid ringing from landing the guard itself.

@AiC-L I think the only attacks that don't necessarily do more damage when charged in NGS are techs. They mostly just change the effect of the attack. For Zonde though, the charged version can end up doing more damage because they split the damage into multiple hits, thus more chances to deal crits.

Or the the other lightning tech you can stack the charged and uncharged tech for a similar effect.

I think all charged Photon Arts do more damage than the uncharged version, just they usually do it over multiple hits.

Even the charged launcher normal attack can also do more damage with the skill that allows you to concentrate all the shots in one spot.

@Riesz Yeah, I just wanted to cover the case where it was a bunch of multi hits where it looks weaker but they actually add up to more. Learned to not expect too much after watching arguments on the topic mid-UQ in PSO2.

Also for Zonde wouldn't that still even out over time? Or did I miss something about how NGS crits are calculated?

@AiC-L said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

AFAIK charged attacks do all have higher DPS than the uncharged version. Maybe not damage per tick though.

Only a minor increase in dps in most cases while being a minor lost in others. Sword is notable for doing less dps with charged attacks but it is easier to trigger Avenger with the charged version which ends up increasing average dps.

@ultimatecalibur said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

@AiC-L said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

AFAIK charged attacks do all have higher DPS than the uncharged version. Maybe not damage per tick though.

Only a minor increase in dps in most cases while being a minor lost in others. Sword is notable for doing less dps with charged attacks but it is easier to trigger Avenger with the charged version which ends up increasing average dps.

There's some dispute currently on the discord about Spiral Edge's DPS, but it's the only one that might possibly have higher DPS uncharged on frame perfect. The other two PAs are higher when charged. In fact I think that and Foie might be the only exceptions to the rule in general last I checked. Which other ones are you getting that are either slightly higher or a damage loss? Everything I see is like 5-10% more of an increase at least.

@ultimatecalibur

The window should be the same for charged and uncharged. You're probably getting confused by trying to tap a charged PA and not adjusting for the negative edge (PA is performed when you let go of the button and not when you first press it). Spiral Edge is the only PA that does "lower" DPS while charged. "Lower" because while in a real situation with delay on charge release you will do less raw DPS, but the massive difference in damage done per PP makes it better at actual DPS. Twist Zapper and Calibur are both just stronger when charged.

@AiC-L said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

There's some dispute currently on the discord about Spiral Edge's DPS, but it's the only one that might possibly have higher DPS uncharged on frame perfect. The other two PAs are higher when charged. In fact I think that and Foie might be the only exceptions to the rule in general last I checked. Which other ones are you getting that are either slightly higher or a damage loss?

TMG - All 3 PAs are a dps loss when charged over the uncharged versions, but due to the mechanics of gunner, proper use of those charged attacks is a dps gain.

Rifle - Charged Razing Shot needs 3 hits on a target to exceed the dps of the uncharged version.

Bow - The uncharged normal is higher dps than the charged version. 1st stage charged Flex Arrow is similar to Razing Shot in needing 3 hits to exceed the uncharged version while the 2nd stage version is lower average dps even if a single big hit.

Everything I see is like 5-10% more of an increase at least.

5 to 10% is actually pretty minor even if significant. Other games have charged attacks that average out to 50% to 100% more dps for comparison.

I'm not saying that the charged attacks in NGS are not good. If anything I think the exact opposite. For example, frame data says that uncharged Flex Arrow is greater dps than the 2nd stage charged version but fails to factor PP cost and recovery into that information. 2nd stage charged needs ~1/8th the PP of the uncharged version which shifts the actual average single target dps.

@Hooonter I was actually more referring to the number of times you need to trigger Avenger to get that dps (1 time for the charged version vs 2 times with the uncharged) rather than the the timings of the window.

@ultimatecalibur said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

@AiC-L said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

There's some dispute currently on the discord about Spiral Edge's DPS, but it's the only one that might possibly have higher DPS uncharged on frame perfect. The other two PAs are higher when charged. In fact I think that and Foie might be the only exceptions to the rule in general last I checked. Which other ones are you getting that are either slightly higher or a damage loss?

TMG - All 3 PAs are a dps loss when charged over the uncharged versions, but due to the mechanics of gunner, proper use of those charged attacks is a dps gain.

Rifle - Charged Razing Shot needs 3 hits on a target to exceed the dps of the uncharged version.

Bow - The uncharged normal is higher dps than the charged version. 1st stage charged Flex Arrow is similar to Razing Shot in needing 3 hits to exceed the uncharged version while the 2nd stage version is lower average dps even if a single big hit.

Everything I see is like 5-10% more of an increase at least.

5 to 10% is actually pretty minor even if significant. Other games have charged attacks that average out to 50% to 100% more dps for comparison.

I'm not saying that the charged attacks in NGS are not good. If anything I think the exact opposite. For example, frame data says that uncharged Flex Arrow is greater dps than the 2nd stage charged version but fails to factor PP cost and recovery into that information. 2nd stage charged needs ~1/8th the PP of the uncharged version which shifts the actual average single target dps.

What chart are you using for TMG? The ones I've been looking at have charged as stronger.

It's practically impossible to NOT hit 3 shots with Razing. I can hit it on the floating balls. Fuwans? I do have a suspicion that only hitting the first hit on weak point might result in less dps than all hits on weak with uncharged though.

I thought bow was the other way around. Well, that's new.

So going through an entire DPS chart, that's... Spiral Edge, Bow normal, Razing and Flex1 on small tames or limbs or maybe the little walking orbs, Flex2, Dim. Ray, Foie, and Gizonde that are weaker. Foie being the largest loss at -20%/-15% less damage depending on PFSC, -11% Flex2, -7.5% Gizonde, -7% Razing 2-tick, -6.25% Dimensional Ray if you hit with all of the uncharged, -5.3% Flex1 2-tick, -1.8% Spiral, -1.5% Bow normal. But practically that's just Spiral and Bow normal since you'd be consciously screwing up Flex1 and Razing target choice. Flex2, Frenzied Firework, Dimensional Ray, and basically all techs fall into the 'multiple uses' category you listed.

Compared to 2 Sword PAs, 2 Partisan, Razing/Flex1 on practically anything worth considering DPS, Launcher normal, 3 TMG, and 1 Wand. That comes in at 4.9% Zapper, 7%-21% Calibur (practically more like 14%), 1%-11% Scythe depending on cancel or full, 7% Tornado, 10%+ Razing 3+, 11.7% or 14% depending on sheet for focused Launcher normal compared to loop, 2%-14.7% Bullet Rave, 6.6%-9.4% Aimless Rain, 6.9% Point Blank, 12.3%+ Flex1 3+, a ridiculous 300%+ if you precast a Flex2, and 12.8% Swift Smash (though I heard this one is just a gap closer).

Honestly it looks like Spiral, Bow, and Techs are the outliers. Everything else seems to fall into 'charge to do more DPS'. I get what you're saying that they gain alternative or bonus properties, but those seem more like the side effects rather than the reverse where the damage is the extra. Basically everything but Razing/Flex (travel speed) is the same damage for commitment as usual.

5-10% is like one or two augmented armors, or upgrading your potential a few times.

@AiC-L said in I'm not sure if I'm liking the direction SEGA takes with the class designs...:

What chart are you using for TMG? The ones I've been looking at have charged as stronger.

oh, hm... according to this spreadsheet, which i've been using, chain boost slants things in favour of uncharged, since it doesn't speed up the charging of PAs. however, even at 20% chain boost, charged remains very slightly higher in dps for all PAs except half-cancel aimless rain. it feels like it's different from the last time i looked at it, though. i'm sure the numbers have been updated here and there, and they're very very close.