New Bouncer Class Thoughts

Bouncer, a class expected by many players, is coming to NGS this Fall.

For this one my ideas keep bouncing around ;v

It is awesome to be able to play it again as it was my favorite class in base game; but there are features that would be cool if they were preserved or added in NGS, or a fit replacement for them is put in place:

  1. Enemy Tracing PA (Similar To Grand Wave; which would make you fly towards your targets).

  2. Since all classes can already use double jump, maybe a triple jump or higher jumps?

  3. Photon Glide + Dashing (Totally just a wild idea; probably not really feasible but thought I would put it here anyways :v)

  4. Maneuverability: This is indispensable when it comes to Jet Boots; being able to move with freedom and being able to skip out of any or most Attack/PA Animations. Which brings us to the next point.

  5. Weapon Action: While it definitely can be something totally new, making it something that will make maneuvering and bouncing around easier, just like in base game, would be really awesome, at least for Jet Boots. For Soaring blades, something similar to Photon blades or a combination of it with Etoile's weapon action would be really interesting to see... but something new will do as well 😄

Really looking forward to this class; be what it ends up being I will still play it, but above all else, hopefully points 1, 4 and part of 5 is kept in mind or taken into account 🙂

I would like infinite jumping with jet boots.

@killa-shroomz anyone :v too bad that's far too OP ;v

To try and add some of my own input to your ideas:

  1. I think I would like for more than just one photon art to be capable of "tracking" enemies. Gran Wave was neat for it but I feel like the Jet Boots for the Bouncer have the opportunity to be expanded upon if the Phantom and Etoile are of any indication (the Phantom's Shift Arts are backwards from the Jet Boot's Variant Arts, but you can definitely see that the Shift Arts are much more fleshed out and even the Wand-Etoile's Focus Arts are much more diverse compared to what the Jet Boots can do). I think it would be really nice to have a way to merge all of those together so the Bouncer can simultaneously attack crowds, focus on bosses, and do both in general without too much micromanagement. To add to this, I really do feel that if the Bouncer does not get support techniques again (their abiliy to use Shifta/Deband/Zanverse) I hope all of their photon arts are capable of dealing damage and not just Vinto Gigue/Jetsweep Kick. As much as I liked that attack, I really did not like the Bouncer's over-reliance on the attack especially when you get to the point of Bouncer/Phantom with Serpen Plenzer destroying every other option.

  2. The Bouncer and the Hero can both infinitely jump provided that they are making contact with an enemy. I would love to see the Bouncer continue to inherit this and also adopt the Hero's ability to attack with full-power on the first hit (which is why jump-cancelling on a Hero is such a big deal) so that we can have some sort of Devil May Cry-esque depth for larger enemies. Otherwise if we jump to the game's historic past, the Bouncer and Hero were the only classes able to double-jump when everyone else still had single jumps.

  3. If this means Armored Core 4 (and For Answer)-styled dashing where you can zip left-to-right with a satisfying audio/visual response like this video at the 0:10 mark I am all for it. I really wished the Jet Boots had more "speed" to them especially since their last rework in Episode 5 game them mobility. Even in the fourth opening video you can see the Jet Boots with a similar speed. Hopefully this means more interactions with the environment as well as I would love to have something like wall-running being a possibility including wall-attacks.

  4. Hopefully this is something every class can get back similarly to what Phantasy Star Online 2 had considering the Twin Daggers-Fighter still has something like this. I would definitely not be opposed to the Jet Boots having an emergency-escape mechanic as I felt they did also end up being too safe with their invincibility in between their attacks.

  5. I hope the weapon action this time around isn't a "cancel element" button with a fancy three-combo flip like the original. I like the Variant Arts but I think they could definitely use a lot of the Phantom/Etoile/Luster fashioning of the weapon action alongside what other classes use in New Genesis to have an additional charged attack (perhaps Vinto Gigue being here instead of its own photon art?) as well as to have something like an emergency dodge if not an outright shift button for Variant Arts. I think if Sega had the foresight to it, I would love to see "Variant Branches" of attacks that allows players to have even more depth with how the Shift/Focus/Variants Arts work overall. If used just before an enemy attack, I can definitely imagine some sort of zip-teleporting or some empowered state resulting in the next attack being something that modifies the next photon art (such as a kick in the form of the breakdancing windmill using the currently enchanted element if an attack like Variant-Moment Gale was used).

In regards to the Dual Blades/Soaring Blades, I feel my five points would be slightly different.

  1. I feel the Soaring Blades didn't have any particularly handy tracking photon arts like Gran Wave was so I think this could be a very nice gap-closer for them especially considering the Etoile and the Bouncer both had some ranged attacks and attacks that moved them but not necessarily onto an enemy.

  2. I do not know if the Soaring Blades should have a triple jump or if they would inherit something like the Bouncer's ability to infinitely jump. Perhaps if the Jet Boots were given extra functionality (such as the wall-running or the very fast dodging/boosting I mentioned earlier) the Soaring Blades could allow players to also infinitely jump as a Bouncer skill rather than a weapon-related skill.

  3. While this might not be so applicable to the Soaring Blades, I really did like their dash-flying with the weapon action and feel like it could be used in a much more practical and engaging way (perhaps via just-attack timing like the Fighter's Acceleration Drive?).

  4. I feel the Etoile and the Bouncer previously struck different methods of mobility with their attacks and in general. The Bouncer was very loose where the easiest way to play them was a Bouncer/Luster with a technique on the subpalette and all you had to do was hold the technique on the subpalette and then spam the weapon action. This is actually very similar to what Rangers do now (you hold the Blight Rounds/Weak Bullet button and then spam the jump button) because this lets you cancel the animations and the delay you would have had normally. For Soaring Blades, this lets you fly, evade, and shoot enemies at the same time and due to the nature of Photon Blade Fever combined with the Luster's High Voltage, you have so much upkeep on shooting these blades that you never run into PP-related issues and are still very safe while you're at it. The Etoile's form of mobility that I recalled specifically relied on using certain photon arts to move and you would cancel it with a dodge before you are stuck in place from the animations. I would love to imagine there could be a compromise for both, otherwise we already have examples like the Fighter who in New Genesis have a renewed sense of mobility.

  5. I would love to see the weapon action for the Soaring Blades become something more than just Photon Blade fodder. I liked the concept of the Etoile's Connect feature (Connect using half of the gear gauge, and Full Connect combining photon blades for the rest of the gear gauge unless you had the ring that let you charge Full Connect). Instead of "photon blades" being part of the weapon action, I would love if they were a part of your attacks and photon arts instead similarly to the Etoile's "Edge" that shows up alongside your attacks. If this means the Soaring Blades also adopts the Jet Boot's Variant Arts (or the Phantom's Shift Arts and the Etoile's Focus Arts), I imagine this could definitely widen and expand what the weapon is capable of without compromising what the classes originally did. Many of the Bouncer's photon arts before were ones I felt could have been combined without the need of sequences or the need of having multiple main palettes or subpalettes meant to take up the actions - so this would be a great downsizing for more opportunity of having photon arts you can actually rely on and use well - or at least for a merging of attacks like potentially putting Justice Crow and Starling Fall together as one being the shift variant of the other.

And lastly because the two weapons are distinct, I really do hope that something like Elemental Stance and Break Stance aren't so overly conditional as it was in the past where Elemental Stance was something that benefited Jet Boots due to its ease-of-use regarding elemental bonuses and how Break Stance was something that benefited the Soaring Blades especially because of the 90% bonus you got regardless of hitting a broken part or not. I hope the new Bouncer has mechanics that are engaging in New Genesis combat and hopefully plays to not just new strengths but allows a Bouncer to hybridize both weapons without punishing the player so much like it currently does (Bouncer/Phantom for optimal Jet Boots gameplay and Bouncer/Luster for optimal Soaring Blades gameplay, for example).

@VanillaLucia Thanks for your reply! I couldn't agree more. This is all actually a pretty valuable input; far more specific and accurate than my post 🙂 Although, let me say that Jet Boots Weapon Action was more than for canceling element ; I used it as dodge - attack; this Weapon Action actual had pretty nice I-Frames and improved bouncer's maneuverability; but you needed Elemental Preservation Ring for your element not to waste away :v It would be nice if the Weapon Action got improved though, but it could preserve the essence of what it currently is in base game (excluding element cancelation, if we get Elemental Stance at all; I honestly don't mind if stances are not included, even though elemental stance would be cool to have around, but that would require bouncer to be able to use techs again which might not be desired at the moment given that Force and Techter want to be given more importance... but it remains to be seen) 🙂

@Richter-Lion said in New Bouncer Class Thoughts:

@VanillaLucia Thanks for your reply! I couldn't agree more. This is all actually a pretty valuable input; far more specific and accurate than my post 🙂 Although, let me say that Jet Boots Weapon Action was more than for canceling element ; I used it as dodge - attack; this Weapon Action actual had pretty nice I-Frames and improved bouncer's maneuverability; but you needed Elemental Preservation Ring for your element not to waste away :v It would be nice if the Weapon Action got improved though, but it could preserve the essence of what it currently is in base game (excluding element cancelation, if we get Elemental Stance at all; I honestly don't mind if stances are not included, even though elemental stance would be cool to have around, but that would require bouncer to be able to use techs again which might not be desired at the moment given that Force and Techter want to be given more importance... but it remains to be seen) 🙂

Oh; and PP regen from weapon action hits was actually really nice

@Richter-Lion Ah, when I was referring to the weapon action for the Jet Boots I meant the natural standing weapon action (the triple flips and not the Normal Attack-Variant kicks). I do like the mobility but I personally did not like that outside of it looking like a fancy flip it was essentially a dodge that had no benefit to it but in New Genesis every class has something to do with the weapon action so I would love to see what attack or empowered boost comes from that flip now if it still happens to be a flip or series of flips. The reason why I brought up the Phantom's Shift Arts was because I was definitely curious to see if something like Gran Wave would be different from Variant-Gran Wave and potentially even Shift-Gran Wave - which could potentially mean you can have a Variant-Shift Gran Wave as well.

My worry with techniques is similar to what you mention, as I feel the Techer and Force already have "too much" overlap for my liking (I don't like that they use the same techniques in the same way for the most part but that the Force is stronger only because of Elemental Bullet whereas the Techer has the ability to bonk enemies on top of casting techniques). I would absolutely hate to see that the Bouncer also ends up using the same techniques in the same way - and instead I would love to see it handled like the Talis instead where you can swap elements as needed or have an alternative version of the technique that is fired off rather than repeating the way they are already used by the Wand and Rod.

When I think of it as well, I would love if the Bouncer's Dodge Action could also maintain something like their Field Skills or something like the Hero's counter-attacks as they were one of the few classes who actually encouraged dodging naturally after their rework. This was definitely something strange to maintain because the Bouncer had so many ways of evading attacks that dodging was one of your last options if only to maintain the fields.

@VanillaLucia Sounds interesting; and I see o: the normal one 🙂 I can agree in that bouncer Jet Boots Weapon action could use some more benefits as you well say o: Something similar to how Hero's Dodge Counter worked is not a bad idea at all 🙂 Kinda hope something similar to the Variant version of the Weapon Action is also added though XD 😄

Since the jet boots are such a unique weapon in themselves I think it shouldn't be a bouncer only

And instead count as a sub weapon

It would be great if you could use knuckles and jet boots in tandem and it's sort of becomes its own weapon archetype

I do not mean multi weapon

The knuckles and jet boots should really count as one weapon because I don't see them knuckles and jet boots as weapons are just like advanced anime fighting moves and honestly would look quite good clothes so you sort of move like phaleg

@Drakaina Personally regarding that, I feel that the subclass mechanic can be much stronger than it currently is if there was some depth to the fighting style for a weapon being distinct due to the main class that uses the weapons. For instance in this case, I imagine a Fighter/Bouncer who wields the Knuckles and Jet Boots together would have very different photon arts and a combat flow compared to a Bouncer/Fighter who would have its own mechanics, its own gimmicks, and its own particular flow. I feel this is a major missed opportunity that we could have already seen with overlapping weapons (Rifle-Ranger and Rifle-Gunner for example being the exact same outside of skills like Weak Bullet, as well as the Talis-Force and Talis-Techer including techniques). While it can definitely be a mess to organize, I really do think that the main classes should specialize in their weapons as-is and that subclasses would have had to have more effort trying to make them fit the main class - which could have been done with something like alternative versions of photon arts, attacks, or even changing the flow of combat altogether (such as if Knuckles used on the Hunter could trigger Hunter Arts Avenger but was significantly slower and less mobile than Knuckles on a Fighter).

With that in mind, I can definitely imagine and agree that the Knuckles/Jet Boots could potentially just be one weapon then if they were more uniform but I would imagine Sega would not go that route and would simply have them be two distinct weapons people happen to like putting together before they ham-fist another preference of theirs as they have in the past.

Because jet boots are the only weapon in the game currently that are used with the feet it could technically be its own weapon that is what every single class sort of like how some games have a gill wheel system that lets it be used in tandem

Everyone else is talking about how to improve the PAs, and I'm here just hoping they bother to make a special ground slam attack/animation for the weapon.

@AiC-L I really would not mind that weapons end up with something like specialized/individualized dodge animations, ground-slam animations (and properties), and potentially more mechanics that are baked into the normal attacks (instead of a simplistic three-button combo we could potentially see something like alternative strings in the fashion of Ninja Gaiden/Devil May Cry where pausing between attacks will open different strings or moving during specific parts of an attack can alternate to different combo strings).

I feel that what we have in New Genesis is very simplistic and works relatively well - but that in lieu of "more" photon arts and trying to boil attacks down to more min-maxed strings/sequences (such as how Fighter before the fix relied almost exclusively on Julien Dance) that we could take on a more friendly action game approach that encourages cycling attacks or utilizing more of your toolkit especially if it results in alternative combo strings.

Something that's completely unrelated to Phantasy Star Online 2 that I am reminded of is how Tales of Graces (and Tales of Graces f) handles its combat system with the Chain Capacity mechanic when they dropped the game's traditional TP (technical points, which is the game's equivalent to MP/SP in other roleplaying games and PP for the context of Phantasy Star Online 2) mechanic for a much more action-oriented combat system that rewarded you for planning out your attacks and inputs rather than simply mashing away. I really do feel the Bouncer is one of those classes who can potentially provide a new kind of depth that we have yet to see in New Genesis and would love to see the limits pushed rather than to see a repeat of the Bouncer in their current state but "Successor-ized" with fancy animations while keeping the core of their gameplay. Though I worry that my suggestion would probably be treated like Lei Wulong is in the Tekken series where he is a relatively popular character as people like him but people don't play him often simply because of his sheer complexity (he lacks consistent combos because every attack of his leads him into alternating stances which allows for extremely versatile mind games and mix-ups).