NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...

I really like the changes to Force, no complaints from me whatsoever on the combat for my class, at least. The movements are smooth and beautiful, the effects are flashy and impactful and it has an ease to it that I didn’t have in PSO2, it’s very fun.

@Milk I dont know. I dont like how you can survive on your own as force. they should have made it so you cant avoid incomming attacks and have to make sure you are at least 100ft away to avoid the breeze generated by enemy attacks.

... ./s

They should have made.........if they didn’t there would have been a complaint about that.

@Yggranya said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Compare Nex to any exploration boss for example; Nex has a move set comparable to something you'd find in an ultra field or an ultimate quest.

Maybe, but as long as it targets you (and you're using force), it's easy to counter most things. Any melee class just mean you'll be running around like a headless chicken.

The key to using melee is to target the right foot (and silently curse the ranger that keeps marking the left foot)

It is comparable, since it's basically the same thing. Like when you hit an enemy, your character is supposed to be so weak they can't even make their weapon cut/flatten the enemy so it needs to have some idiotic pause every time you attack an enemy. So really, it's exactly the same since they want the combat to be slower than it should be.

Also, how am i supposed to "recognize when to stop" if the enemy does nothing and completely randomly starts swinging and the swing is fast enough that i might be in an overextended animation to do anything about it? Spam normal attack? Obvious solution, except the enemies sometimes just decide to start jumping/walking around for no reason since they fail to register that you're standing right in front of them or something. Really, it's the enemy design that's the biggest problem rather than the combat system itself.

You're talking about hitstop, not weight. And hitstop is actually an issue. It works well in fighting games because it lets you react to various interactions, but really serves no purpose in this kind of game unless the hitstop itself is associated with motion values like in older monster hunter games (idk if it still is post world). Afaik, it is not in PSO2 or NGS. But overextending is 100 on the player to manage, because doing less and not getting destroyed is always superior to doing too much and getting punished for it. It's on you as the player to recognize and respond to the situation.

Also how to recognize when to stop is kind of a weird point to make, but I'm assuming you're arguing in good faith so I'll explain, and for clarity I'll be explaining from the pov of a knuckle user since it's what I use the most. Non boss enemies from what I've noticed are programmed to be less aggressive during the nex vera EQ, you can see that on the two petas guns that spawn on the fallen tree, but outside of lag I have never noticed enemies being that passive outside the EQ. Now, the thing is, every non boss enemy in NGS has a slow windup to their attacks, between dodge cancel windows and WA cancel windows, everything is 100% reactable even if you are mid attack when the windup starts, and this coming from pov of knuckles which is considered to be one of the weapons with animation lock "issues".

The same goes for bosses, only bosses never stop attacking unless there's lag, or in pettas' case when he gets too close to one of the pods where he's programmed to walk away from them. The tells and patterns of bosses are easy to read and react to as long as you aren't button mashing. For example; I always do X rotation into N4 -> N5, or N3 -> N4 -> N5, or N5 -> N4 -> N5, or N5 -> N5. During that rotation there is no attack in the game currently that you can't react to, I only get hit when I straight up make a mistake, never because I was locked out of my options for so long that the tell came and went.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 Just for clarity, we were talking about which has higher DPS. You ignored my point about the nex fireballs, and you say that rod react is not valid and follow up with citing PP conversion and tech charge PP restore to bolster your argument while telling me the chart is flawed in the long term because it doesn't take abilities into account. Whether there are many attacks where you can abuse react into parry is also irrelevant to our initial debate which is that it's incredibly easy for a force to not overextend as a result of their frame data, and also irrelevant to the other point where it's the optimal thing to do whenever you can. EDIT2: Also I saw your bujin video, and it reminded me that you can react and parry spam during bujin's red dome as well.

But back to what we were discussing; Your videos actually prove my point about the DPS. GET READY FOR THIS; Secondary chart with normal attack frame data.

45018794-8c4e-4732-aef4-2ff5336d4324-image.png

Uncharged Foie is higher DPS than charged, the reason it was slower in your video is precisely because you used 7 normal attacks to refill your PP, if you want to test it yourself, try doing the fight again and using 7 normal attacks on a charge foie run once you get the burn, it should be slower than your uncharged video. And yes, the DPS alone is what I was referencing as far as foie goes, and my greater point, like the thing with zonde is that there is no objective best when it comes to charge vs charge, it all comes down to situation. For example; If you do that fight again, and spam uncharged after it stops moving completely as it's lit on fire your run will be faster than the charged only run.

EDIT; NGL those videos were crisp though, you should make moar.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 Just for clarity, we were talking about which has higher DPS. You ignored my point about the nex fireballs, and you say that rod react is not valid and follow up with citing PP conversion and tech charge PP restore to bolster your argument while telling me the chart is flawed in the long term because it doesn't take abilities into account. Whether there are many attacks where you can abuse react into parry is also irrelevant to our initial debate which is that it's incredibly easy for a force to not overextend as a result of their frame data, and also irrelevant to the other point where it's the optimal thing to do whenever you can. EDIT2: Also I saw your bujin video, and it reminded me that you can react and parry spam during bujin's red dome as well.

But back to what we were discussing; Your videos actually prove my point about the DPS. GET READY FOR THIS; Secondary chart with normal attack frame data.

45018794-8c4e-4732-aef4-2ff5336d4324-image.png

Uncharged Foie is higher DPS than charged, the reason it was slower in your video is precisely because you used 7 normal attacks to refill your PP, if you want to test it yourself, try doing the fight again and using 7 normal attacks on a charge foie run once you get the burn, it should be slower than your uncharged video. And yes, the DPS alone is what I was referencing as far as foie goes, and my greater point, like the thing with zonde is that there is no objective best when it comes to charge vs charge, it all comes down to situation. For example; If you do that fight again, and spam uncharged after it stops moving completely as it's lit on fire your run will be faster than the charged only run.

EDIT; NGL those videos were crisp though, you should make

I didn’t ignore your point on nex, I just didn’t want to repeat what you had already said, why I gave another example and to point out the rod react skill was different to animation lock. I’ve never said that the rod doesn’t have less lock than other weapons just not to the point where it need to be changed.

It’s certainly not at the point where you can just cast techs with no regard to what the enemy is doing and just mash the block button at the last second and be able to block, you still have to time it carefully especially if you want to fire of multiple counters during rapid attacks. Also force does less damage than classes like hunter or fighter, I haven’t seen a force time even get close to either of those classes in solo Pettas UQ, even with playing perfect and getting every single counter off I’m still doing less damage. Sure if the rod was doing comparable damage or better damage than those classes and had a shorter animation lock then I would say people would have a point. But a it’s a trade off play a class that has higher damage but also longer animation locks, or play a class with less locks but also does less damage but is also highly reliant on those blocks to try and keep it’s dps up.

About the charged and uncharged techs. Yes I had to use 7 normal attacks with the uncharged but that’s because I had too because I used all my pp extremely fast, where I was able to make my pp last longer with charges foie and over the course of the fight was able to clear it faster. Theirs also how the techs work uncharged foie works, it has to travel through the air and has 1 main hit and 4 small hits, which means 1 or more of this hits tends to miss the weak spot, where has charged foie drops on what you are targeting and hits the weak spot far more often.

Keeping your dps up with force is also about using your various skills and abilities to keep your pp up, you basically want to be using your normal attack has little has possible. Which is why depending on how much pp you have, what abilities are on cooldown etc, the higher pp cost of uncharged techs quite can actually slow you down. Theirs obviously more to it than this, how the techs work (hitting the weak spot, hitscan, what the enemy is doing etc). Their is some exceptions to this of course like when you get a break status on a enemy, you can do a lot of extra damage during this phase so it’s well worth burning through your pp on uncharged techs even if all your abilities are on cooldown cause the extra damage you do during this phase will far outweigh the damage loss from needing to use normal attacks to restore your pp. I do agree with you that it is situational what tech to use, and the best dps is a mixture of both uncharged and charged at the right times, it’s basically what I said earlier, but with the case of foie and zonde I find it more often that im using charged techs than the uncharged ones.

Im glad you like the videos I’ve uploaded. Yeah I haven’t upladed for a while I wanted to do a solo Pettas one, but to build the specific gear to do the most damage for that UQ is well a lot, more than I have and more than I’m willing to spend if o did. (getting decent Fixa abilities on a straga rod, glissen talis, and 3 Geant unit’s plus the affixes). Has a result my solo Pettas time is only 9:30ish which isn’t that great and doesn’t really do force justice so I haven’t done one so far. I’m saving all my mesta and affixes for when 5* drops so then I should have the gear to show force off in the best light and will start uploading again.

@Flowen231

You're talking about hitstop, not weight. And hitstop is actually an issue. It works well in fighting games because it lets you react to various interactions, but really serves no purpose in this kind of game unless the hitstop itself is associated with motion values like in older monster hunter games (idk if it still is post world). Afaik, it is not in PSO2 or NGS. But overextending is 100 on the player to manage, because doing less and not getting destroyed is always superior to doing too much and

Hitstop serves really two purposes in action games like this. One if just feeling nice a meaty when you hit something with a heavy attack, and it also means you can shorten than actual recovery of a move outside the hitstop. Like I would prefer Twist Zapper let you recovery immediately after the last hit but had meaty hitstop when you're hitting something. Another thing is that it makes moves more safe on whiff (missing the enemy) since hitstop doesn't take place otherwise. Hitstop often also scales depending on amount of enemies hit which is another thing to consider.

PSO2 also had plenty of hitstop. Even if nerfed compared to release times Sword Hunter still has frames of hitstop on Nova, Cross Cut, or even Blaze Parry. It even had that stupid bug associated with it where the hitstop freeze would also slow down cooldown of all abilities for some spaghetti code reason.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Alla that

Im glad you like the videos I’ve uploaded. Yeah I haven’t upladed for a while I wanted to do a solo Pettas one, but to build the specific gear to do the most damage for that UQ is well a lot, more than I have and more than I’m willing to spend if o did. (getting decent Fixa abilities on a straga rod, glissen talis, and 3 Geant unit’s plus the affixes). Has a result my solo Pettas time is only 9:30ish which isn’t that great and doesn’t really do force justice so I haven’t done one so far. I’m saving all my mesta and affixes for when 5* drops so then I should have the gear to show force off in the best light and will start uploading again.

My mistake on that first bit. But tbh after reading the rest I think we're agreeing, just different perspectives.

Tbh we may be getting more than just 5* though. If the new area is 15 levels higher we may spill over into some 7* or even 8*s. I also wonder if players could be optimizing their break phases better though, atm the best rod time I've seen on pettas was 6:54, but it was all rod. Makes me wonder how the run would go if they had a pair of TDS for buzzard during the downs, since it was Fo/Fi.

@Hooonter

And yeah lol base had plenty of histop too. But that nice meaty feeling is the "weight" that Yggranya was talking about lol. I just don't really care about it personally unless it's tied to damage values. Idk how I feel about using it to shorten move recovery though, because at that point it seems like you're safe as long as you get the hit in, unless you use the hitstop as the thing that players have to consider when judging whether they're going to overextend. I don't like the idea of moves being purposely safer when you miss though. Referencing back to monster hunter again, that game has hit stop which is tied to the move's MVs, but it also has hella recovery time on most things.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Alla that

Im glad you like the videos I’ve uploaded. Yeah I haven’t upladed for a while I wanted to do a solo Pettas one, but to build the specific gear to do the most damage for that UQ is well a lot, more than I have and more than I’m willing to spend if o did. (getting decent Fixa abilities on a straga rod, glissen talis, and 3 Geant unit’s plus the affixes). Has a result my solo Pettas time is only 9:30ish which isn’t that great and doesn’t really do force justice so I haven’t done one so far. I’m saving all my mesta and affixes for when 5* drops so then I should have the gear to show force off in the best light and will start uploading again.

My mistake on that first bit. But tbh after reading the rest I think we're agreeing, just different perspectives.

Tbh we may be getting more than just 5* though. If the new area is 15 levels higher we may spill over into some 7* or even 8*s. I also wonder if players could be optimizing their break phases better though, atm the best rod time I've seen on pettas was 6:54, but it was all rod. Makes me wonder how the run would go if they had a pair of TDS for buzzard during the downs, since it was Fo/Fi.

And yeah lol base had plenty of histop too. But that nice meaty feeling is the "weight" that Yggranya was talking about lol. I just don't really care about it personally unless it's tied to damage values. Idk how I feel about using it to shorten move recovery though, because at that point it seems like you're safe as long as you get the hit in, unless you use the hitstop as the thing that players have to consider when judging whether they're going to overextend. I don't like the idea of moves being purposely safer when you miss though. Referencing back to monster hunter again, that game has hit stop which is tied to the move's MVs, but it also has hella recovery time on most things.

Do you have the link for that force video? I’d be interested in watching it.