NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...

I wouldn't get too excited about animation locks finally making the gameplay good (read: not a Just Press Dodge Lol game) just yet given:

  • Animation locks existing is still a decently common complaint even now
  • Very popular complaint in the closed betas, and was addressed by the devs with plans to do future changes as well
  • Animation lock is extremely uneven between weapons - Some weapons have very very little animation lock (rod) and others have none/almost none (twin daggers)

They are still subject to change at any time.

@Yggranya said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

I also hard disagree about the gameplay. 99% of base pso2 was incredibly easy and brainded because you could cancel most things into some kind of guard or I frame. This bit is subjective, but animation locking is a great thing because it makes you have to think about potentially getting smacked if you overextend, and it makes you really have to learn fights to do well in them compared to just always having (several) a get out of jail free card.

Considering how abundant reversasigne is and how easy and quick they are to use, you always have get back from the grave free card.

Fluid combat would mean the enemies fight back constantly rather than shuffling around for minutes in the middle of combat in an attempt to waste your time since you can't use counters if they refuse to attack (or their attack just passes through you when you try to counter). If PSO2 was incredibly easy, NGS is too, which it is. NGS combat is just plain frustrating with all this pointless extra fuckery. If the combat wouldn't work if enemies just kept attacking as they should, then it's poorly designed.

Also, the "overextend" is basically the same kind of disingenuous crap as the "combat lacks weight". If the enemy just stands there doing nothing, am i supposed to just stand there and do nothing until it stops screwing around? No, i'll attack it until it does something, and the reason you might get hit is that you're locked in an incredibly overextended animation. Use weaker, shorter attack to avoid the obvious finally happening? Pfft, since i'm immortal with enough armor to take 10-20 attacks in a row, why bother? It's pretty sad that it's more efficient to faceroll the enemies rather than fight back properly.

I've been disillusioned by this crap so hard it's not even funny.

The reversasigne thing is dependent on you playing with people though 😜

Tbh I think enemies could stand to be more aggressive. But NGS enemies relative to their pso2 counterparts are a bit more aggressive (aside from certain situations like the nex vera EQ where for some reason they just barely attack at all). And I 100% think that in terms of difficulty, NGS currently is currently harder than most of PSO2. Compare Nex to any exploration boss for example; Nex has a move set comparable to something you'd find in an ultra field or an ultimate quest.

Overextend is not in any way comparable to "weight". "Weight" is a general, subjective feeling relating to non tangible qualities of the game's presentation. The act of overextending is the player messing up and doing more than they should have resulting in them getting smacked; It describes a player's actions, not what they feel. And no, you're not supposed to sit there, you're supposed to attack, and recognize when it's time to stop if continuing would result in a negative consequence.

@LusterMain

The thing is, people who took part in the beta were avid pso2 players. A good chunk of people who play NGS are old PSO2 players who (especially if they've stuck with the game this far) really liked the game and understandably prefer no animation cancel. But I hard disagree with that mindset, just based off of what I want from the game. I wouldn't be opposed to removing animation cancels if enemies had counterplay to it though; Perhaps giving some enemies counters like shiva's, or making unevadable/unblockable attacks that players would have to manually avoid.

And I do think some weapons deserve more animation locking. Rod is a great exampe tbh; Talis has more animation locking than rod but is not as reliant on parries for its DPS. I think rod should have less animation locking than talis but atm I think it's way too safe. But ultimately, what I want is better balance between what the player is capable of, and what the enemies are capable of. In PSO2 base the balance was SUPER lopsided in the player's favor.

@LusterMain Animation lock shouldnt be the same across weapons, as they all move and attack differently. I dont expect animation lock periods for Wire Lance and Twin Dagger for example to ever be similar.

The Animation locks are done very well in this game. They are easy to work with. It makes combat less button mashy.

But i can tell coming from a Luster Main how the change can suck :3

@AngryRhombus563 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@LusterMain Animation lock shouldnt be the same across weapons, as they all move and attack differently. I dont expect animation lock periods for Wire Lance and Twin Dagger for example to ever be similar.

The Animation locks are done very well in this game. They are easy to work with. It makes combat less button mashy.

But i can tell coming from a Luster Main how the change can suck :3

I used luster most often out of all my classes. I thought it was fun but def 100% busted. I used to make the joke all the time that I'm just carried by luster lol.

Or how mitra just sees me and kills herself (me mashing forward dodge XD).

EDIT: While I did love luster mechanically though, I think it fell into that trap pretty hard. After some time I couldn't play pso2 without pulling youtube up on my second monitor, nothing in that game could really contend with luster's defensive actions, and it led to an overall lack of engagement.

Also to clarify; What I want isn't necessarily for the game to be hard, I just want it to be engaging, punishing when you mess up, and I want it to be easy to make mistakes if you're not paying attention . I don't want it to have that pso2 endgame where you can just pull up youtube and barely pay attention to the game.

@AngryRhombus563

I am not complaining because the animation lock is uneven just because they're uneven. The problem is that some weapons have way too little (some might have way too much, but I haven't played everything yet), even taking their different styles into account. Again, rod is absurd (you can cast a spell in the middle of an attack already coming at you and still be able to guard it) and td has essentially none at all.

EDIT: Luster has guard frames so it's not like luster with lock would be that much worse anyway

@LusterMain True, the real issue is that lu counters were kinda bonkers for damage. 100% on the rod thing though, and you also have the skill rod react which gives you I frames on your next tech cast after a parry.

When Nex Aelio/giga nex does the double volley fireballs rod can parry the first one, cast a tech, parry the second, cast a tech, and repeat without rod react. Vs Nex Vera the timing is a bit stricter but you can parry, dodge counter, then cast a tech and repeat, or just double parry with good timing if you have rod react.

@LusterMain said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@AngryRhombus563

I am not complaining because the animation lock is uneven just because they're uneven. The problem is that some weapons have way too little, even taking their different styles into account. Again, rod is absurd (you can cast a spell in the middle of an attack already coming at you and still be able to guard it) and td has essentially none at all.

EDIT: Luster has guard frames so it's not like luster with lock would be that much worse anyway

Don’t forget you got to take the time to charge the tech into account has well. It’s also not has generous has you’re making it out to be, it’s still very easy to get caught if you’re not paying attention or get to greedy.

@Flowen231

Thanks to rod react you can just stand still in Nex's fire breath attack and just keep casting and guarding nonstop, lol

@TEN-SQUARE-3

Don’t forget you got to take the time to charge the tech into account has well.

You can also guard mid-charge, right? I remember there being a skill that let you keep your charge progress if you did that.

Also, it really is as generous as I'm making it out to be. I know from experience.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 You can block mid charge, and it really is that generous. Plus charge techs are barely higher DPS than uncharged when it comes to barta and zonde, whereas foie is more dps uncharged. If you don't think you can get off the charge after a parry you can just do uncharged and parry again immediately before the Iframes from rod react go away.

EDIT; DPS chart can be found on fleets in the force section

@Hooonter said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Partizan has options superior to Sword. Using Slide End Scythe with Avenger in many situations beats out Spiral Edge or anything Sword can actually do. Similarly you can setup full PP bar Stab Javelin avenger on some attacks where Sword could only setup a single counter. It's just lagging behind in overall use and Fatal Tornado is fairly useless.

Even WL brings some new things to Sword as it can instantly click Avenger on a couple of PAs without charging and get more damage out of it than either of guard/step/uncharged PA options. The 10% bonus shuts a lot of cross class uses of weapons for the purpose of single target DPS since it's super competitive from meta perspective, but bringing weapons for AoE is still fair game.

Yep you are right! Some people just not exploring concept builds deep enough. I love 1.Paritzan/ WL 2.Paritzan/Sword and 3. Sword/WL lightening weapon combo on a Hunter main fighter sub........I hear Hunter main and force sub same weapon setup is good also because of PP management.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 You can block mid charge, and it really is that generous. Plus charge techs are barely higher DPS than uncharged when it comes to barta and zonde, whereas foie is more dps uncharged. If you don't think you can get off the charge after a parry you can just do uncharged and parry again immediately before the Iframes go away.

EDIT; DPS chart can be found on fleets in the force section

Yes you can block mid charge, but if you want to get that charge tech off in one go you need to factor in the timing off both. So you can get caught if you try to be to greedy. Sure 7 uncharged barta and a charged one for detonation is definitely better going straight charged, but un charged zonde is for mobbing not single target, has it rebounds and each hit charges your zonde clad. Charged zonde is for single dps and will do a lot more than your uncharged version 95% of the time. Foie does more dps charged has well.

Yes you can go for uncharged if you need the faster cast cause of rapid attacks, but that’s changing your strategy for the situation, not just mashing the block button whenever you want and being able to block.

Edit: I’m not saying it’s not less than other weapons, just that it’s lack of animation lock isn’t has much has its being made out to be.

@TEN-SQUARE-3

The reason why rod is lenient isn't just because it has less animation lock. If you use rod react and uncharged techs you have no vulnerability gap between your tech I frames and your parry. You only get hit in that situation if you decide to charge afterwards when an attack is already on you. And we're not saying that it's impossible to overextend on rod, it's just abysmally difficult in practice.

Also you're wrong about the DPS. This is the DPS chart that I referenced earlier. The power and Damage per PP of charged foie is higher, but the damage over time is lower than spamming uncharged. The same goes for charged zonde when it comes to DPP and power but it's not actually that much more damage per second than uncharged; Hence why a lot of the time uncharged counters are better.

In the case of the nex fireball volley for example, you can counter every single fireball with a parry and an uncharged tech with 0 risk thanks to i-frames transitioning into the parry, whereas if you were to break off to do anything else, or if you were to get hit trying to charge a tech instead of using an uncharged one (which would get you smacked in that situation since rod react only counts on cast, not the charge) you would be at a DPS deficit.

8a111e6a-56a2-4f99-b8f7-46a8db5f48a9-image.png

EDIT; They made uncharged techs competitive with charged ones, and situationally better aside from blot/clad because it actually gives people reason to use them unlike base PSO2 where you only ever charged techs.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Compare Nex to any exploration boss for example; Nex has a move set comparable to something you'd find in an ultra field or an ultimate quest.

Maybe, but as long as it targets you (and you're using force), it's easy to counter most things. Any melee class just mean you'll be running around like a headless chicken.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

Overextend is not in any way comparable to "weight". "Weight" is a general, subjective feeling relating to non tangible qualities of the game's presentation. The act of overextending is the player messing up and doing more than they should have resulting in them getting smacked; It describes a player's actions, not what they feel. And no, you're not supposed to sit there, you're supposed to attack, and recognize when it's time to stop if continuing would result in a negative consequence.

It is comparable, since it's basically the same thing. Like when you hit an enemy, your character is supposed to be so weak they can't even make their weapon cut/flatten the enemy so it needs to have some idiotic pause every time you attack an enemy. So really, it's exactly the same since they want the combat to be slower than it should be.

Also, how am i supposed to "recognize when to stop" if the enemy does nothing and completely randomly starts swinging and the swing is fast enough that i might be in an overextended animation to do anything about it? Spam normal attack? Obvious solution, except the enemies sometimes just decide to start jumping/walking around for no reason since they fail to register that you're standing right in front of them or something. Really, it's the enemy design that's the biggest problem rather than the combat system itself.

@Flowen231 said in NGS sure is pretty, and the open world is a pretty fantastic new foray for the franchise but the gameplay/content...:

@TEN-SQUARE-3

The reason why rod is lenient isn't just because it has less animation lock. If you use rod react and uncharged techs you have no vulnerability gap between your tech I frames and your parry. You only get hit in that situation if you decide to charge afterwards when an attack is already on you. And we're not saying that it's impossible to overextend on rod, it's just abysmally difficult in practice.

Also you're wrong about the DPS. This is the DPS chart that I referenced earlier. The power and Damage per PP of charged foie is higher, but the damage over time is lower than spamming uncharged. The same goes for charged zonde when it comes to DPP and power but it's not actually that much more damage per second than uncharged; Hence why a lot of the time uncharged counters are better.

In the case of the nex fireball volley for example, you can counter every single fireball with a parry and an uncharged tech with 0 risk thanks to i-frames transitioning into the parry, whereas if you were to break off to do anything else, or if you were to get hit trying to charge a tech instead of using an uncharged one (which would get you smacked in that situation since rod react only counts on cast, not the charge) you would be at a DPS deficit.

8a111e6a-56a2-4f99-b8f7-46a8db5f48a9-image.png

EDIT; They made uncharged techs competitive with charged ones, and situationally better aside from blot/clad because it actually gives people reason to use them unlike base PSO2 where you only ever charged techs.

While that’s a useful skill, theirs not many attacks in the game where you can block, use rod react to iframe the next attack while firing off a tech, and then block the next incoming attack. Dailyt Sword triple laser attack is one you can do it on, but that’s a skill in the skill tree that allows you to do that, which is different from animation lock. For most attacks in the game you’ve fired off a few techs before the next attack comes in.

While that chart is a great starting point it’s not the whole story, it doesn’t take into account all your ability’s and how they all interact. I’ve soled a lot of vets since the game come out and in both cases when the mobs were weak to fire and then weak to lightning, I’ve defeated them consistently faster using mainly charges techs.

That doesn’t mean uncharged are bad, 7 uncharged barta and 1 charged for detonation is higher dps than going full charged. Uncharged zonde is great for mobbing and can be useful on single target cause it hitscans which is great when they are jumping around a lot. Plus the no charge time can be great to squeeze in an extra attack when you don’t have the time to get a charged one off. So ultimately the fastest dps tends to be a combination of both depending on the circumstances.

I did a quick test with foie has it’s easy to do with the alter rush tower and the Wulan enemy. This is no skills, no ability’s, no counters etc just straight charged foie against uncharged foie.

Charged foie https://youtu.be/fw07ktCLlMU Has you can see I started attacking at 18 seconds and it died at 42 seconds, for a time of 24 seconds.

Uncharged foie https://youtu.be/1AmmfkoBfpU Has you can see I started attacking at 18 seconds and it died at 45 seconds, for a time of 27 seconds.

Just the pp I got back from charging foie, which meant it takes a lot longer to run out of pp, and didn’t need to use normal attacks to restore it was enough to make charges foie faster, plus I messed up and undercharged one of the techs and wasted time. Compare that to the uncharged one I had to spend some time restoring pp with normal attacks, and that’s just a straight comparison.

Once you start adding in pp conversion which really only works with charged techs, allowing to continue attacking normally while restoring your pp, where has with uncharged you either have to use normal attacks, to allow it to charge or switch to charges techs to refill your pp. You also have the photon flare short charge skill, if you use it that is, which has no effect on uncharged techs but reduces the charge time on charged techs, so they get a lot more from that skill. So for techs like foie and my zonde on single targets you are better off going with mainly charged techs, and using uncharged ones has the situation calls for it. Though uncharged barta is definitely better than charged.

I thought o should show some evidence of what I was saying, rather than just saying I kill vets faster with charges techs.