Gunner TMGs WA, or dodge if you prefer

Hey there,

So, I don't recall having this issue back in the beta or at the start of NGS, but does anyone else get hit even after hearing (or DURING?!) the Dodged! sound cue when using the TMGs WA?

It's already an annoyance they introduced frame locks, but can try working around those.. but a dodge that only works at times..? that takes the cake... And no, I'm not the only one complaining and it's not lag related. Heck I had better luck using it with the launch lag spikes <_< oh wait.. that might explain why I didn't notice it at the start of NGS..

Ya, this has been a thing since day 1 of ngs.

Gunner has a few known quirks aside from this one btw. Such as issues with our chain trigger needing to be triggered twice to get the 20% attack speed despite no mention of stacking in the talent description making most people think they're getting 20% for triggering it when in reality they are only getting 10%.

Also, an outdated issue for some, but if you had escalating pursuit on your weapon it could cause your opening shot of a chain to also end the chain (opening shot(s) triggers chain & proc, the remainder of your PA counted as a second PA ending the chain).

You also have the issue of the dmg bonus not applying on your next PA after successfully dodging with s-roll. You get the sound, but no bonus damage. Likely related in some way to the damage still going through.

Same. I don't know if the weapon action dodge is broken or something but it happens to me most of the time. I could hear the "ting" and it also flashes on my character but after that I still get hit. Best example is after dodging the laser beam from Daityl or the spinning attack from "Wutan?". With regular dodge, I don't get hit but in the WA I still get hit for some reason, which is kind of annoying to the point I would rather put block as WA instead of dodge.

I think it was designed this way intentionally. S-roll was OP in base pso , with I frames throughout the whole animation basically. NGS s-roll only has I frames in the startup to about halfway through the roll. So in situations like the daiytl laser your running out of I frames but still in the attack hit box, so you get hit.

Not too sure we can call it OP now when all other guards WAs function properly for their entire duration.

if i'm not mistaken, isn't this because it's a dodge and not a block? the "dodged" effect triggers whenever something hits you during i-frames, but a dodge doesn't neutralise the hitbox so it can still hit you afterwards. you'll see the same thing if you step-dodge an attack, like varas' tornado, but are still in the hitbox when the dodge ends (without initiating a step counter, which adds to your i-frames). gunner's weapon action is the only dodge that doesn't let you follow up with an i-frame attack, so the tight dodge frames really stand out.

After observing, yeah, the dodge is pretty much useless when the attack has a large hit box (ex. Varas' tornado, Nogleth's upper cut, Daityl's laser). Unless you evade going outside the hitbox you will get hit after since you can't do a quick follow up dodge immediately. It's fun to use but annoying at the same time since you know that you "dodged" it perfectly but you still get hit if you are still on the hit box which is kind of dumb tbh. If they would put a skill that increases the iframe duration of the WA then it would be better even without a counter.

IIRC the specific attacks you're talking about are actually multiple attacks strung together. You only neutralize the attack that you dodged, so for example the finishing pulse of a Daityl's laser in rage mode will still hit you even if you dodge the opening part. The spinning laser should be the easiest one to test, as I believe that part is just one attack so you can dodge it at the start of the spin and it won't hit you again until it stops moving.

@AiC-L The mechanics is just weird. As you said, Daityl's laser is multiple attacks but if you actually block it you could just stand in front of it even without countering it, unlike dodging that if you dodge it, you will still get hit regardless since you will land just beside the hitbox. To b honest its just dumb as of now since there are no quick double dodge mechanics in the game now. You could double dodge using sidestep + PA action but there is still a slight delay that would hit you if the attack has simultaneous consecutive attacks. They would probably introduce a new class skill that would increase the iframes for people to do consecutive dodges but for now its just dumb for me. Gunners should excel in close to mid range combats but the with the current WA mechanics, most gunners just stay outside and spam bullet rave till the enemy dies.

Addition:

Nogleth's uppercut is only 2 attacks, 1 when he jumps and 1 when he lands. However there are times that you could still get hit by the same attack even after dodging which shouldn't suppose to happen since you already dodged that specific attack. Idk how SEGA implemented dodge in NGS but it doesn't reward you for doing perfect dodges for now.

@AiC-L i see... from what i've seen, dodging definitely does not neutralise a hitbox, and only blocking (as with sword, wand, or rod weapon actions, or with hunter arts avenger) does? i've absolutely tried to dodge one of the big daityl lasers and gotten hit as soon as the dodge frames ended—meanwhile, i can block the start of varas' tornado and then sit inside it for the rest of the duration without being damaged.

you can actually step-counter attacks with a single hitbox several times consecutively (and even dodge a hitbox that you already blocked and neutralised) because dodging doesn't care whether the hitbox was neutralised or not—whereas you can only block an attack if it would actually hit you.

@starryeyedgiant That's exactly what I'm talking about though. With Varas for example, I'm reasonably sure you can dodge into the first part of its spin, then just sit there until it does the second part. Maybe they just have block neutralize the entire attack instead of one of the phases of it?

@AiC-L hey, i did some testing and i think i figured out what's going on here!

you probably know this already, but certain PAs and attacks (notably many of fighter's weapon PAs as well as many weapon action counters) have "guard frames", which function as a block despite not playing the typical block effect, much like the majority of guards in base PSO2. it seems that the i-frames granted by a step counter attack are in fact guard frames, not dodge frames.

as a result, when i step-dodged varas' tornado and then initiated a step counter, i was able to sit inside the attack afterwards—the hitbox was negated by the guard frames of the counterattack, not the dodge frames of the sidestep. however, if i step dodged and did not counter afterwards, i got hit by the tornado once the dodge frames ended.

@starryeyedgiant Another thing to note is that you only get hit once by the Varas tornado attack if you didn't dodge it at all, AND if the attack is still going on after you recover from the knockback, you can still step dodge and step counter the attack. This works for any attack with lingering hitboxes, including but not limited to Oruq's charged beam attack and both AoE detonations from Nex Aelio / Nex Vera.

@Septima oh, being able to trigger dodges on already neutralised hitboxes is something i mentioned earlier in the thread! you can neutralise a hitbox by either guarding it or getting hit by it.