Hey Whales, I have a question

Hello, my fellow Whale. First of all, let me thank you. By spending money on the game and selling items at auction, you literally bring us content and a reason to continue playing. And now to the topic. We are discussing a very interesting question here. https://forum.pso2.com/topic/13270/multi-account-red-box-hunters-are-destroying-the-market?page=1 In short, the situation looks like this. You spend hundreds of dollars to get a meseta, at the same time there are players who just make several accounts and can get as much money as they want. How do you feel about this? BUT... before you answer. I have to tell you a dark secret. This is a win-win situation for you. Did you get a nice new outfit for sale? without a doubt, sell it for say 2 million. People who use several accounts will be able to afford to buy it. And you and they are happy. Of course, FTP players and even honest premium players will be unhappy. For example. the free player will need 4 weeks to collect the required amount of meseta. And when he collects it, no one will sell this outfit for 2 million anymore. It will cost about 6 million. Thanks to the resellers. But these are the problems of poor people, they have chosen to be poor themselves. So... what is your opinion?

lol Hell, I found 73 red boxes on my own through playing, I didn't even know that Orangje had the red box quest until 2 weeks ago! Not just that, but I've made money just fine by doing dailies/weeklies and keeping up on those. Sure they're gonna cheat, but SEGA will eventually ban them anyway.

Now about that supposed bot... I need to find the other 40 boxes.

Red boxes it's not the main point, easy money from weeklies the point. Yeah everything fine by now, why care, right? Let's as always wait until everything start to burn and only then some ppl probably start to complain. Someone abuses the system and earns a huge amount of money and this allows the RMT market to flourish. Indeed, it does not matter at all. Let's just talk about feeling and offensive symbol arts. THIS... THIS is a real problem, even if you can solve it in a few clicks by disabling them... Oh my god.

This approach is the reason why I believe that the PSO has a very weak community. You hope that the REAL problems will be solved by themselves. You don't like RMT bots only because of spam in the chat, no one wants to see that this is a direct threat to the market. No one in the community is interested in learning how game mechanics work. It's been a few weeks and there are STILL people who firmly believe that the party increases the experience. Everyone can test it out in just a couple of minutes. But, you prefer to blindly BELIEVE that it works as YOU want.

if people want to throw extra money at extra accounts for a bit more meseta, let them. As long as its not a trick you can do for free i dont see a problem with it. Im sure SEGA is fine with people giving them the money to still have to do some amount of work for that extra meseta rather than deal with shadey rmt or something. Theres no difference from multiple account holding in any other mmo. Except you could actually freely trade character to character in others, so pso2 has a handicap.

Only the main account needs premium since all the other accounts need to do is buy.

As long it's not automated botting, it isn't against ToS to have multiple accounts.

Not a whale but I have Premium and drew from every scratch up to now.

I think, as long as it's not widespread, it's fine. Which means SEGA needs to come down with an iron hammer on any kind of botting. Unfortunately, we've seen how incompetent SEGA is (or at least Global is) on this front, letting RMT spambots run rampant. I'm sorry, Global team, I know you people no doubt work your ass off, just like me at my work, but you're not producing results, whether you are being limited by not getting the right tools or simply not being empowered by SEGA JP, in the end you're not producing results. Sorry to be blunt, but that's just that.

What I really hate is inflation, and that happens mostly from scalpers (i.e. people who find it fun to "play the market") and botting (because they generate many times more N-MST from the game through multi-boxing bots 24/7). Red box farming, if done manually and legit, is mostly fine for me. It probably takes hours and most players probably have real life obligations that limit their play time. But when things are automated (as they generally do), we have a big problem.

Personally I've always thought the idea of a free market in an online game with a tiny player population (yes, 100,000 players is a tiny population) is flawed. Because of the extremely limited supply on most things, it becomes a heaven for scalpers.

I sell my unwanted AC items and I absolutely hate seeing those Oracle Renew hairstyles and emotes going up for 1-2 million already. I absolutely hate it. And I aboslutely hated it back in vanilla PSO2 when certain couple of accounts would have up to 80 of the same emotes and completely own the market.

I wish everything in PSO2 are bound to account when purchased off the market. Removes the scalpers completely and that will do wonders for inflation. It won't fix inflation, because of the existance of dailies and weeklies, but as long as trading (in any form, which in NGS now is limited to Personal Shops) isn't open to every player, such income must be provided.

I think the whole PSO2 economy simply had all the right elements for inflation, and the same goes for NGS.

What I think would have been better:

  1. Dailies and weeklies should give consumables, such as Augmentation Success Rate +5% or Enhancement Success Rate +20% for weeklies, and RDR/TriBoost for dailies. Maybe one extra free SG pull for doing all the weeklies, and one badge per day that can go towards an ASR +10%.
  2. Personal Shop should be usable by everybody, i.e. everyone can sell and everyone can buy.
  3. All items, including equipment, consumables and cosmetics should bind to account (become untradeable) when purchased off another player's shop.
  4. Adjust cost of equipment enhancements accordingly.

This means the only way to generate N-MST is via playing the game, i.e. mob drops and trial rewards. Some people may not realize this, but dailies and weeklies are basically printing money. Imagine if you can print your own legit dollar bills, $100 dollars per day and at the end of each week, another $1,000 dollars. What are you going to expect? Bic Macs is gonna cost $100 by the end of the year.

Yet we expect the same thing not to happen in a game. That's nonsense.

(EDIT: what about people with limited play time? Are they going to be forever poor? Well, the key would be to help people who play less with measures that aren't also benefiting people who play more. Such as a "rested" bonus accumulated while not in combat zones, which would double or triple N-MST drops from mobs and combat trial rewards. You still get more if you play all day, but the income difference between people who play 10 hours a day and people who play 2 hours a day can be vastly reduced.)

I believe most people who play scratches don't play-untill-complete. Only whales do that, and whales alone do not account for the number of cosmetics we're seeing on the market. Most of us decide beforehand how many draws we are going to play according to what we want from the line-up, and try to buy the missing items just like everyone else. Except now we also have some AC items we can sell to turn into money.

So inflation does NOT, and I repeat, does NOT benefit us. While we can sell our unwanted stuff for higher, the items we are missing and need to buy off other players are also priced higher. Inflation does NOT benefit us.

Now back to red box farming. Farming for red boxes using throwaway accounts is only a tiny part of the problem that has a smaller impact then the whole active player population "printing money" through dailies and weeklies. The real problem is in how the economy in this game is designed to inevitably cause high inflation, while allowing scalpers to own the market.

As to people who just enjoy "playing the market"? Well, I'm sorry to be blunt, again, but you are the problem and you're playing the wrong game if you enjoy clicking through product listings more than killing monsters.

Okay, I got it. The few people who responded focus on these damn red boxes, which means that they did not read the discussion beyond the first post, not in this topic, nor in the mentioned topic. Also, apparently, many people do not understand how it works and why I consider it a problem at all. And you know what? I'll leave it that way. It was my mistake, I overestimated people. I tried, and failed. The result? probably, now a few more people have learned how to effectively use multi-accounts. What about the others? nothing has changed for them. Prices on the market will continue to grow as before, and they will complain about it to each other on the forum as before. We got a bad ending. But the game is over, thank you all for participating. ^_^

@kztm said in Hey Whales, I have a question:

I think, as long as it's not widespread, it's fine.

Well, it's pretty much guaranteed to become widespread if they're not doing something about it. Buyers compete on the market just as much as sellers and people who can multiply their income for little effort have a biiit of an edge in that race. So eventually, more and more people are going to resort to it.

Especially since it really doesn't take much. You have to invest a bit of effort to get the alt operational for the weeklies initially, but after that? You just need to fire up a multibox setup for like half an hour while you do the dailies. You don't even need them all in the same block for most of the tasks, so it's not easy to detect either, even if you wanted to do something about it.

Even if you don't use multibox software, the dailies/weeklies are intentionally designed to not take a lot of time, so doing them multiple times is quite feasible for anyone with more than an hour a day on four days a week. You could be doing the dailies only on one account on the first three days, do it on two on saturday and then on the alt the remaining days of the week because your main is "done" for the week. You'd still about double your weekly income.

It's just asking for inflation. (Kinda like in base, really. It's the same thing as stacking alt characters was).

And as long as it is done legit, it's fine. Which is why I focused on the need for SEGA to work on anti-automation.

But then ultimately the only way to fight inflation is to stop injecting so much money into the system, that takes care of the oversupply of money; and to eliminate scalpers, which takes care of the artificial demand for money.

Multi-account red box hunting and dailies and weeklies, they are all the same. It is when they are automated (multiboxing is a form of automation) that they start to have a big impact. Someone with 10 accounts doing 10 people's worth of dailies and weeklies legit is fine, because that cannot become widespread, as most people simply don't have that kind of time to play.

I still think the main reason for inflation in PSO2 is the oversupply of money and the scalpers. Take care of these two and prices will stabilize.

I will give you a decent post (hopefully)

The system of economics that exists in a MMORPG is called Infinitum-Based Economy. In this economy one or several groups (factions) become Recipients. Every other entity becomes a Money-Printer. Recipients do not have direct access to the Money-Printers and Money-Printers do not have access to the Recipients. The two sides are independent of one another and there is no bartering between them.

In MMORPGs we have the system itself that creates both, the Recipients and the Printers themselves. The Printers do not keep any money that have been printed. Any money returned to them is removed from the system.

The way this works is that all money is printed out of thin air. The higher the player-base, the more money exists collectively among the recipient-class. An example... For every 1000 players who have saved up 1,000,000 meseta in storage, we have 1 billion meseta circulating in the system.

In order to retain the worth of the currency high, there needs to be a mechanism to remove money from recipient, back into the system. There are only three:

  1. Purchases made through the item shop
  2. Purchases made through the Lab
  3. Taxation through the Marketplace

There is a fourth that is special. The Item Exchange and Capsule Exchange because that removes materials from the system. However, since the materials (Ores) can not be sold in player ran shops, it is just part of the system to remove materials.

Of these methods, the one that removes the most money in a noticeable fashion is the Item Lab. Even with the community discovery and posting on the most efficient ways to enhance weapons and units, as well as affix them, as well as perform weapon potential unlocks and multi-weapons....even limit breaking, this is still a method that takes a lot. Consider the fact we are only at 4 star weapons. Imagine 8 - 9 star weapons when we get to them.

In a discussion of economics (before talking about red boxes). We need to consider the exchange rate from Infinity to Finite. I hate botters as much as the next person, but according to their spams... 1 Million Meseta is worth $8 which would mean one AC scratch card is worth 250,000 meseta (not counting real world taxes for purchasing AC)

Red Boxes:

What Red Boxes do to the game on multiple-accounts is increase the amount of money in and items players can have. If they have a shop card, they can sell these items and make money from them. However, the important items can be obtained by everyone on their accounts as these boxes are local to each player.

The players spend a few hours to gain around 400,000 in Meseta, and then to transfer the money end up finding a way to get a shop card. Since it is a new account, there is no access to a 3 day shop card, meaning they would need a shop card that is 700 AC (nevermind premium) to run a 30 day shop card per account.

Thanks to the RMT botters out there.... Each 100 AC is equivalent to 125K Meseta, so 700 AC is 875K Meseta. In order to get a return from this, the players would have to sell the special armors as well as the capsules they get from some of the red boxes. Once they are done spending the time it takes to get all the red boxes, this also means that they have to pay some of that money back to the system through Marketplace Taxation.

After checking through what the Red Boxes drop and the current worth of items, along with time spent....this is actually quite extreme for a player to achieves and for the time spent to do this, it is a net-loss. In fact, these players are actually helping to fund the game while getting little return. It is actually better to AC scratch four times and see if you can sell the items depending on the scratch.

So the main question argument here is "Red Box hunters are causing inflation in the economy"

The argument I present is the playerbase overall has a greater effect on inflating the economy due to the fact that content-demand has been satisfied (Gigantix is killed by just about everyone major group even with one or two sub-20s in many places) with the +40 Gear we made already for that. Only few players are attempting to use Geant Units and Straga Weapons not just because its more glass cannon, but because players already made their gear and many do not want to raise more four star weapons, money is not going back into the system.

So due to the fact that Content-Demand has been reached, the market supply is insane to the point the prices of many items, including some straga weapons have dropped to 1000 Meseta on the ship I am on. As far as money is concerned, Red boxes are one thing.....but having the account active and four weeks of running Dailies and Weeklies off that shop card will net more money than the money gained from Red Box hunt. Put it all together and sure, you have some money.

However, Phantasy Star Like most F2Ps out there... is a game where you make the most money from simply not playing it.

Suppose I make an alt account and want to use to make around 3 - 4 million meseta a month for my main account. This means I do weeklies for five weeks (28 days for four weeks, but since its a 30 day shop card, I can do weeklies five times). Lets say this venture costs me 12 hours of time. Just log in and do weeklies and get red boxes. (remember, observing PSE burst and doing a UQ takes some time)

Even if I were to take half the time (6 hours), I bet you I would make more money in working 6 hours at a rate of 15 dollars an hour (as many people in high school working in this state make 15 - 17 now), which is $90 and doing the 2200 AC scratch for 12 scratches four times, and selling off 48 Scratches on the marketboard.... than a person who wants to go through the trouble of running another account. 🙂

@CheekiestCarp0 at that’s the problem we’re about to face, buy AC or die. 😕

If something isn’t done about all of this, anyone who buys scratch tickets is a multimillionaire overnight. Not because of hard work, but because something drove the prices up for everyone.

Prices on pso2 slowly rose because of natural inflation, sure, but it was free to anyone to generate all that meseta thru multiple characters or shop passes. If anyone multi-accounted back then it wasn’t noticeable, because everyone could generate about the same amount of meseta from natural sources.

@K-UwU as for you question, coming from a freemium players perspective, this has effectively killed f2p interest in this game. Say it takes 4 weeks for a freemium player to collect 2mil meseta, a scratch only lasts 3-4 weeks now. That means all that hard work would only net them ONE item a week. 😠

So if this was to continue, expect the only ppl to use the market are scratchers, or resellers.

@CheekiestCarp0 said in Hey Whales, I have a question:

I will give you a decent post (hopefully)

With this post, you have proved several things:

  • 1 Yes, you know something about the game economy.

  • 2 You can write long walls of text. Really great achievement

  • 3 You, like many who answered before you, did not bother to read further than the first post in the mentioned topic. OR if you've actually read it, you still don't understand what kind of flaw in the system I was pointing out.

  • 4 You have proved to me that this discussion is meaningless. Thanks for that.

I fully understand that my words may sound arrogant. And i DON'T like it. But this is because of despair and frustration. I really hoped that this could lead to some positive results. But... all I get is people who don't even try to understand what it's about, BUT express their opinion. Only @Zoe and @Weirdo obviously understand what we are really talking about. And I apologize in advance, but I no longer have any motivation left to explain something. I don't care what happens to the PSO anymore. PSO now is just login, make dailies, close and leave to play single player indie games. Where developers really put their soul into projects and they try to make it really interesting and thoughtful.

@K-UwU All this have happened before in PSO2 and they will happen again in NGS, because the "flaw" you are pointing out exists in every single game, and every time a developer tries to combat it, the vast majority of players cry and whine that they can't make enough money. And ultimately the devs bend over and inject money into the system, in the form of dailies and weeklies.

The only way to control the prices and keep them where f2p players feel reasonable, is to stop rewarding lump sums in dailies and weeklies. Multi-account just exacerbate the problem, they are not the cause of the problem.

But it seems you are not in for a discussion, you are only looking for an echo chamber to chime along with your thoughts. So I'll stop here.

@kztm said in Hey Whales, I have a question:

But it seems you are not in for a discussion, you are only looking for an echo chamber to chime along with your thoughts.

Yes, you're right. This is true for me, and for any living human being i know. And I do not pretend that I am above or better than others. Do you want a discussion? Hey, look, we have a fire in the middle of the room. Let's take action? No. Let's discuss it.

Okay. I believe that the problem is the possibility of error-free transfer of money or items from one account to another. By completely removing this feature, it will solve the problem of multi-accounts and at the same time make RMT meaningless. Although they will probably start spamming something like selling accounts. Or something else. If you think that this will not solve the problem, please tell me the reason. If you agree that this will solve the problem, then what kind of discussion do you want?