Does force feel weak to anyone else?

I enjoy magic/tech classes but, force and techter feel so weak or is it just me? I started lvling my fighter and I’m like dang, I’m melting enemies so much more easily.

I feel it more the mobs versus force in my opinion. I have dropped Fire on mobs weak to Frost and Fire pounded out larger numbers versus the ice/frost they are weak to - even with the passives available and bursting their signs to get higher numbers.

I dropped a 1052 fire on Dragon (Weak to shock) in UQ, while Frost/Shock on trash barely broke 480 damage with signs being exploded.

I feel mobs are still being fine tuned, but for now, I notice that are a bit funky from standard trash packs to bosses. Also the lack of techs is at play too - Being some one who enjoys the fire and lightning themes, hope more come to help enhance the feel of these.

Fire is in a good spot for all round nuking everything. Frost is moderate, but to bland and copy past from Base - needs more long distance AOE versus upclose and personal. Shock - yeesh, visually lacking, lowest damage despite trying to offer more unique utility in mobbing - needs to be buffed in damage and visuals. - mind you these are just my opinion.

How dare you call us weak !!! lol All i can tell you is Master the multiweapon Rod/Talis and the counter Tech skill and you willl get 9 times out of 10 the aggro on UQ and on Veterans farming , just my 2 cents....

I dont think they are weak, and hitting bosses with the proper element causes them to eventually shut down somewhat longer than hitting down points with physical attacks.

Force in particular has a way of feeling weak if youre trying to play too safely. The WA block both restores 30pp and adds an additional elemental attack to your next Technique (with the skill). When used with Barta/gibarta with Barta blot or zonde/gizonde with zonde clad it provides double to charge/marks.

i've also gotten the initial impression that force with rod felt weak—it's why i switched away from it to hunter. barta blot feels barely worth the damage lost from firing so many uncharged techniques, pp maintain seems to sap a lot of your potential dps if you use it, and the overall damage with anything but gifoie seems really lacking, especially when you can't monopolise enemy attacks for block counters. i do feel, however, that your ability to consistently attack from any range and in any condition is worth it, especially against tougher enemies; you can parry during or between techniques without a dps loss, and counterattacking gives you i-frames, meaning you never have to break your flow no matter what you're dealing with. you'll never hit especially hard per technique, but overall your dps comes out quite solid—at least, that's what i speculate.

talis is also a very powerful technique option, especially against groups, although it has less defensive ability and is imo a lot less interesting since it takes away the uniqueness of each technique. wand's photon arts also aren't lacking in damage compared to the PAs of other weapons.

i do feel like adding more diverse and interesting techniques would greatly boost the appeal of force for me, though—and i'm personally a big fan of the aesthetic of light techniques, so i hope those make a comeback and we're not just stuck with three elements in the future.

Launcher is still the weakest weapon, it contributes nothing, not even the highest dps so as far as weakest class goes it's not about class it's about the weapon and Launcher is therefore the weakest.

Not sure about how powerful I feel, but I do think Force is in a weird place.

I feel they wanted NGS Force to do something that isn't just mindless charged techs so they put in BB and ZC, but then it means 90% of the time Charged Tech PP Well Up doesn't work, so they put in Maintain PP Gain, which destroys the only advantage uncharged tech has: fast and rapid shooting.

Force just doesn't feel right. The supposedly slower paced charged build (takes Tech Charge PP Well Up but not BB/ZC nor Maintain PP Gain) comes out feeling faster paced, while the fast-paced uncharged build (takes BB/AC and Maintain PP Gain instead, but not Tech Charge PP Well Up) end up feeling like boxing underwater against the current.

What I think would have made a better build would be to have Maintain PP Gain changed to a skill that returns a nice chunk of PP when triggering a 7-stack BB or a ZC. Let the uncharged build play uncharged rapid-fire style.

EDIT: upon further examination, I realized that PP doesn't recover when shooting uncharged techs, so Maintain PP Gain is the right way to play a BB/ZC build.

I do agree that the "wait" in Maintain PP Gain adds an aspect of player skill into the rotation, but it makes the Force gameplay a real drag, like everyone's going full out on the boss and only I am in slow motion.

Talis would have been a great tool if not for how short the bloom and the floating pillbox last. You are constantly redeploying them. Full Spread Shot feels powerful but it also puts the extremely slow talis-force in the middle of chaos just waiting to get smacked around from up, down, left and right.

I can see the gameplay value in creating a "rotation" for talis by forcing the player to redeploy talis bloom every minute(?), but honestly it's a frustrating experience when first starting on the weapon. Some kind of effect or sound cue to indicate that the bloom is going to go away would help alleviate this, although deep down I would prefer to simply have the bloom last indefinitely until revoked or changed, which would also make the Talis Bloom Revoke skill worth taking.

Or, let Talis Bloom Revoke extend the bloom duration by 10 times. That would make it a must-have for talis builds.

All in all, I feel they wanted too desperately to put in player skill elements into the Force gameplay, that they forgot to make it fun. All these aspects of player skill elements instead feel like obstructions. No wonder I see several people claiming that Force is garbage and the better way to play a Technique class is to main Techter.

The fighter weapons are the highest single-target DPS weapons out there. So comparing anything else is a little silly.

But yeah, I too am a fan of the techniques, but found them underwhelming at first. After taking force and techter to level 12, I decided to carefully weigh my options, and made the decision to take Ranger up to 20. But after doing so, came back to techter.

Techter as a main class offers Shifta/Deband. This is a party-wide 5% damage boost, 5% down boost, extra natural PP regen, and 10% less damage taken to every ally in range that can be kept up constantly. As a side note, techter main offers 40% more healing and shares heals with allies in the area. Force offers Photon Flare. Which appears to offer 20% more damage (through potency) for 30 seconds on a 3 minute cooldown. There is also a lot of natural PP regen there available (at a reduced rate) as a subclass force, too. Ranger offers blight rounds, which creates a weak point at the target location on-demand that increases damage to the particular location by 20%.

To be honest, "natural" PP recovery feels like a bit of a trap. Most of the time one can only recover PP naturally by standing still or moving without photon dash. In other words, it only helps recover PP when idle. Sub gunner with its active PP bonuses makes a lot more sense, as I don't want to be idle on the battlefield when I can help it.

Shifta/Deband offers a lot of boosts, but each of them are very small. 5% extra damage, and a total of 10% extra down (1.05*1.05), plus small defensive options. The only trouble here is that while they can be maintained constantly and affect every ally in the area, the bonuses are still small. It can be hard to notice unless one is a min/maxer whose trained to keep an eye out for those buffs.

The ranger option is probably something you aren't expecting, as it's a ranged class and not a technique class. That means most likely using a sub force in order to use the rod and techniques. Also it means that the techniques itself will be about 9% less effective as you aren't getting the main-class bonus to them. On the flipside, Blight round allow you keep a 20% or 25% bonus damage on a specific part constantly while doing a good chunk of damage by itself. Everyone gets that bonus damage as long as they hit the specific part targeted. A rifle is required, so this option is specific to ranger/force using a rifle/rod multiweapon. The good news is that both the rifle and rod are 4 star Foursis series weapons, so it's not difficult to set up.

I however ended up ranger/gunner for a while using an unmodified rifle and launcher. Damage was great, especially from the launcher, but I ended up missing the elemental down option techniques have. That is the one thing that makes techniques worthy of boss battles. Do enough damage matching the elemental weakness and you can force an elemental down on the target. This acts like a down status, but is separate from the normal down from high damage. So the enemy boss can spend a lot more time downed than usual.

But that's my opinion.

Techs and rods specifically nope. Well, basic fire ball is weak. But that's been a problem since base. Every other tech is usable and does good damage if you've actually invested a build into it via affixing and enhancing. Talis i've heard isn't doing good enough damage though. Since it doesn't scale off of tech damage and it's casts are weaker compared to rod you'd think the PA's would make up for it but apparently you can't shotgun enemies with it's spread mechanic so i'm left wondering what the point of talis even is.

Disclaimer: Everything said following this is my personal opinion.

Force doesn't feel weak to me, except against Gigantix currently. I find using BB off of rod counters to be the best choice towards using it, otherwise fire off charged Barta's. (Small pp regen between every firing, better damage, less time using normal autos) Rod guard, bullet counter. Eventually you'll stack the first stage blot. fire a few uncharged bartas/counters, break the stage 2 blot and repeat. ZC is amazing for mobbing, 2-3 zondes you get charged, then charge a Gizonde for an enhanced aoe blast. Feels very potent to me. Generally I aoe spread Talis when there are belly dancer's in the group of mobs, spam ice til frozen/broken, resume Zonde/Gizonde Spam. Charged Foie/Gifoie definitely feel stronger in comparison but that's if you are only considering your own dps. The idea is to elementally stun the boss and keep them still so everyone else fighting can take advantage of an uninterrupted moment of free damage. Additionally, if you are subbing/maining another non-tech class alongside force/techer, this allows you to use your much stronger other abilities to take advantage of the boss sitting still. It's also an opportune time to drop PB's as the boss isn't moving and is less likely to move out of the way. If you are using Talis Blooms as your primary way to cast techs, then its going to feel weaker in actual damage because you are able to fire techs out far faster than not blooming/using a rod. Personally, I find it best to focus a weak point during down phases with the bloom, because the homing capabilities of the talis bloom are lackluster and you can miss the target entirely if they move too much. The faster speed feels better when you're still trying to get that elemental stun. and while the fire spells do beat everything out in straight up damage right now, I feel like every spell has its place in everything we have accessible to us right now. Additionally, I feel like Rod PB is best used for taking out large groups of mobs or when you can hit multiple entities. Otherwise, Talis PB doesn't miss the weak point and that results in a ton of damage. (most of my PBs on a large boss's exposed weak point result in upwards of 7.5k total damage dealt and i don't have to do any special positioning with the talis vs the rod). But again, this is largely personal opinion based on my experience. I mostly started using Talis over Rod because Techer main class bonus and the reduced movement forces me to rod guard more often. I do attempt to get the occasional dodge off in an attempt to keep crit rate up(Resugir) but admittedly I will forego most of the time.

@FoolsArcana

I'm sorry what is BB? I'm new to casting since I didn't cast in base pso2. ZC is zonde clad yes? I don't see why that would be used over regular zonde since it costs more pp and regular zonde chains fairly generously. I only drop Zonde clad (the aoe lightning) on EQ bosses because it builds it faster due to no enemies to chain zonde with. But that's kinda it.

So is it correct to say that you use tails purely for elemental effect spread? Because that combined with it's PB might make it worthwhile to use. But I still wish the damage of it's PA's was better since casting damage with Talis isn't good from what i'm told.

In regards to the comment about fire techs the reason I say the charged Gifoie is better is because the end lag on the basic fire tech is significant enough to effect general dps. Even if I end up taking longer to charge and drop Gifoie as long as that target takes the 3 ticks of fire damage it does it out dpses it and should build your fire stun faster. I have fire stunned a frogga twice in relatively quick succession compared to just basic fire ball tech spam. If the end lag for it wasn't present it would have a use but I can't be asked to use it right now on rod anyway. Not enough slots for my pallete (since I refuse to put things I interact with frequently on sub palletes.)

I am curious on your weapon(s) setup.

@Knight-Raime BB is Barta Blot, when you stack 7 hits of uncharged Barta techs for an explosion damage.

@Rida

Ah I figured. Just wanted to be sure. ty.

It is a little bit from a damage perspective.

force mostly exists as a elemental stunner against bosses/

My problem with force is how mind numbingly spammy it is against bosses currently. Unless your in the thick of it parrying everything like a baller I guess.

If you look at the frame data the discord community has been compiling, Force definitely comes out on the lower (lowest?) end of the DPS charts: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YEg-6eViChVV7HDDlNlgFPJf3qbyIUeAlLYPr9b99t0/edit#gid=1128783714

Even Techer surpasses it (Thanks to higher passive bonuses and Wand PAs exceeding tech damage), the main problem being that tech damage is low. Any other class spamming a single PA will typically break even or exceed even the most PP-intensive tech combos being executed perfectly, and any error results in that damage falling away sharply. Contrast Twin Dagger's Circling Buzzard Skip Action at 389 DPS (For 1 button press) Vs uGizonde+4uZonde+cGizonde clad combo for 273 DPS (6 button presses, forced melee ranged and requires target is lightning weak)

What Force does have going for them is that they tend to be very good at staying on target and attacking constantly, where a fighter may have to reposition, or a ranger or gunner has to use their evasive skills, a Force with a Rod can guard and counter the attack without even breaking their casting and keep on blasting.

But that doesn't make up the difference, Force is the underdog class right now:

  • Lowest DPS on paper
  • Lowest HP/Armour pool
  • Less utility than a Techer

They're super fun to play though, which is why I'm Force main and don't really care about the metrics; and besides, given the amount I seem to hold aggro on a boss in random PUGS, it seems like if you learn to play Force well you'll still out-perform the average rando spamming Julien Dance. But that doesn't make up for it either because if you put the same effort into say, Fighter. The difference would be drastic.

My guess is like PSO2, it'll be a late bloomer as they add new techs