The AC item reselling in Market problem

The market was always going to eventually start stabilizing. We're still in flux, but for all the increase in prices a downturn was inevitable. Eventually it will turn up again and down again each time less severe than the previous.

@Nasar

Not exactly.

We are currently in a phase of the game where people try prices. We dont really have a working economy yet so people try prices and slowly build said economy. I mean some stuff is even criminaly cheap. I saw IOs Hair going for 200k and i instantly got mine because i know what those did go for on base PSO2. So just by purchasing IOs hair in NGS i already saved millions.

People are still used to PSO2 prices and now slowly they realize that this aint gonna sell anymore. Sure once the game is older and has a stable economy prices will rise again but the current state of the game wont really allow selling stuff for high prices. On top of that people get banned from the system now for using multiple accounts for Meseta farming so less people do that now or they do it much slower affecting the prices to go down even further.

@Nasar

I haven't been following these discussions super closely because frankly I find the whole topic to be very annoying and exhausting so I apologize if some of my suggestions are mimicking yours. I wasn't intending to steal your ideas or anything.

The idea I was trying to do was essentially making a choice between putting something up on the market or putting something up in the auction house. You could list your item however high you like on the market but are forced to relist the item on occasion thus hopefully encouraging players to not list super high. Or you can list it in the auction and not have to worry about re-listing since the item stays until it's been sold off. But you gamble with less of an earning because of how bidding works and a ceiling exists. Hopefully that makes sense.

Yeah that's why I want items to not forever sit on market and they have to be re-listed. That way listing fees can help comb off some of the meseta from circulation in combination with the tax from the item being sold. My ideas are not set in stone mind you. I had a few goals in mind with my suggestions:

-Try to remove some more meseta from circulation to combat some of the damage done with multi-account exploiting

-Create a new interaction with premium versus the market that doesn't gate access to said market from F2P players so that premium still adds value to the market scene (preserving that idea for Sega)

-Force a choice for listing an item to be sold. Option A would have a higher potential per individual item sold but would be more tedious to interact with. Option B would have value through long term interaction via multiple sales. But the interaction would be less tedious.

-Attempt to reduce value for scalping and multi-account exploiting.

So long as these goals can be reached I don't mind so much how it's done.

So I sold a few things yesterday and here’s what I’ve noticed. Nothing sold above 2.2m not even hot ticket items.

Old emotes will always have a fan base, I sold a Poledance emote is less than a single minute! accessories didn’t have as much buying power and took much longer to sell even at prices under 500k. To my absolute surprise, thigh high stockings don’t have fans frothing at the mouth this time around, I bought mine for only 350k. The average new scratch stuff had prices all over the place, from 20k to 2.2m. People didn’t appear to be mass buying stuff like they have in the past, even stuff in the 100k category sat for a day or so unless they were a hot ticket item.

People are obviously testing the waters on how much buyers will pay but they ain’t biting and I’m honestly glad to see them not give in, we don’t need inflated prices like in PSO2. I sold the coveted Four emote for under 2m and the equally coveted Wet & Long hair is about the same price( I want it! ). Finger emotes aren’t universal in desirability, some are worth barely anything and some are the highest prices, the same goes for idle poses. The market is very unpredictable right now.

For those who don’t buy scratch, I’ll inform you guys that the animation is completely different and feels a bit predatory. It’s much more flashy, there’s flashing lights on your screen and all the bells & whistles of a lotto machine at a casino. I really don’t like it.

I think for the most part the market is fine right now, at least on my ship. I worry more about the added temptation to scratch rather than RMT at this current time but of course we’ll have to stay on top of it and bring our concerns to the staff’s attention.

@Milk Um...idk if id say the new animation is predatory. The old scratch is so dull and boring and this one just has a new coat of paint like the rest of the game. Not sure what these bells n whistles are either tbh

But i would say just give the market some time to auto adjust

@XenoBladeX37645 said in The AC item reselling in Market problem:

@Milk Um...idk if id say the new animation is predatory. The old scratch is so dull and boring and this one just has a new coat of paint like the rest of the game. Not sure what these bells n whistles are either tbh

But i would say just give the market some time to auto adjust

Gambling in general is meant to make you feel good, there’s a reason lotto machines have the same kinds of flashing lights.

Here’s what I mean

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181029130911.htm

It’s pretty to look at but it distinctly reminds me of lotto machines. The flashing lights when you get a lucky red scratch item(usually hot ticket) signals to your brain that you’re winning! It’s hard for me to explain, but gambling companies deliberately do this for a reason, all of them, because it works. We react positively and with excitement to “winning” cues, it encourages us to keep up our winning streak.

@Milk

I think part of the reason these new scratches are not being sold for a ton of value is because none of it is updated stuff. What I mean is if I go and buy Io's hair it still looks to be the same hair from Base PSO2 compared to the updated starting hair we got in the first Oracle renewal scratch.

There will be players grabbing up some things they didn't get a chance to grab before and global in particular is getting a bit extra of a sweet deal because there's items in all of the scratches that global didn't get in it's year long life span. But yes, these particular scratches primarily exist for players new to NGS to get a bit of taste from the base game without having to trek back into the old game to try and find a cosmetic that might not even be listed anymore let alone dealing with the hyper inflated market.

I imagine once we start getting the other renewal scratches JP got and the highly popular items we voted for things will be selling for much more. But ATM if you're seeing a high listed price it's either because people are effectively trading meseta with each other or they're just testing waters. Nothing is going to sell for more than a few mill by any regular player because the regular player does not have that kind of meseta.

@Gilver-Redgrave That's what it means for a market to still being in flux.

@Milk said in The AC item reselling in Market problem:

So I sold a few things yesterday and here’s what I’ve noticed. Nothing sold above 2.2m not even hot ticket items.

Leave it there, and price will eventually get there once the scratch is over and there is no new supply of it anymore.

@Knight-Raime said in The AC item reselling in Market problem:

@Milk

I think part of the reason these new scratches are not being sold for a ton of value is because none of it is updated stuff. What I mean is if I go and buy Io's hair it still looks to be the same hair from Base PSO2 compared to the updated starting hair we got in the first Oracle renewal scratch.

There will be players grabbing up some things they didn't get a chance to grab before and global in particular is getting a bit extra of a sweet deal because there's items in all of the scratches that global didn't get in it's year long life span. But yes, these particular scratches primarily exist for players new to NGS to get a bit of taste from the base game without having to trek back into the old game to try and find a cosmetic that might not even be listed anymore let alone dealing with the hyper inflated market.

I imagine once we start getting the other renewal scratches JP got and the highly popular items we voted for things will be selling for much more. But ATM if you're seeing a high listed price it's either because people are effectively trading meseta with each other or they're just testing waters. Nothing is going to sell for more than a few mill by any regular player because the regular player does not have that kind of meseta.

It seems to affect even NGS brand new scratch as well, which I found surprising. We heard about finger emotes selling like hot cakes in JP but at least on my ship it wasn’t crazy at all. I’m happy about all the rewind scratches because I didn’t have everything yet, either. My Risa emote was listed for 2.2m but I wanted to use it so I have no idea if it actually sells for that much. All I know is, Poledance is still wanted by the players, it sold for 1m in under a minute. None of my other emotes were anywhere near that price, some only 100k. The market isn’t full of rich players or anything so buyers have to be more selective in what they buy. The rewind scratches have been an absolute blessing! Nobody should have to pay 200m+ for an old scratch item, it was getting out of control.

Last night someone tried to sell a lipgloss and the same one lipgloss(I think?) kept changing price. It went from 400k down to 100k before I bought it. Buyers(including me) don’t want to pay fatcat prices for things just yet.

@Milk If there isn't a price for putting things on sale on the personal shop, there should be. If there is, it should be high enough to discourage sellers from doing what you did. Not like i believe it would make much of a difference.

If you're not in a hurry and just leave thing on sale, eventually all the cheaper once will be gone since the scratch will eventually end. If someone still wants it after it's gone, they'll cough up the cash or let some other chump get screwed.

@Yggranya said in The AC item reselling in Market problem:

@Milk If there isn't a price for putting things on sale on the personal shop, there should be. If there is, it should be high enough to discourage sellers from doing what you did. Not like i believe it would make much of a difference.

If you're not in a hurry and just leave thing on sale, eventually all the cheaper once will be gone since the scratch will eventually end. If someone still wants it after it's gone, they'll cough up the cash or let some other chump get screwed.

There’s actually a steep sales tax, it would have cost over 1m in tax to sell something in the lower red price category. The problem is it’s only a sale tax, not a listing tax. People grumble but having a listing tax for X time duration(higher for more days) kept sellers from constantly testing the waters. You had to know it would sell or you were losing a lot of currency. They could put a listing tax for at least items over 1m to discourage sellers from scalping. I don’t know if it would work here but it has in other games, at least.

My stuff doesn’t sit so I don’t know how that works, if it doesn’t sell for what I feel is a very low price(right now under 1m, usually 200k) then I just use it because I don’t have every NGS thing yet. I’m sure we’ll see that happening soon.

As far as the listing tax goes, all they'd really need to do is reduce the actual sales tax down to 7.5% and make the listing fee 2.5% (assuming we stick with the 10%).

While a listing fee might discourage people from selling, it's actually very unlikely as long as the duration/cost is reasonable. As long as the market is active people will be willing to list. The problem we have is most items are literally worthless. So what we will see is that a lot of these low end items that people throw up for 1k will simply stop being listed - or at least significantly less of them - which is a good thing considering NGS's extraordinarily bad search functions.

The way the balance goes with listing fees in pretty much any game is a fight between amount taken and duration. So say 2.5% is 2 weeks, 5% for a month. That's not really a huge ask for the convenience of listing things longer. Yet it's still high enough that for high ticket items it becomes expensive quickly after more than a few listings.

Another major point when implementing listing fees is the ability to adjust prices without taking the listing down (the fee is non refundable after all). So being able to lower your price is a must to keep everything fair to the seller. The expiration remains unchanged as well as the fee they already paid, but they can adjust the price as needed to give them the best chance to sell. If they decide to increase their price for w/e reason, the difference in tax will be charged but expiration still remains set to the original listing.

@Nasar said in The AC item reselling in Market problem:

As far as the listing tax goes, all they'd really need to do is reduce the actual sales tax down to 7.5% and make the listing fee 2.5% (assuming we stick with the 10%).

While a listing fee might discourage people from selling, it's actually very unlikely as long as the duration/cost is reasonable. As long as the market is active people will be willing to list. The problem we have is most items are literally worthless. So what we will see is that a lot of these low end items that people throw up for 1k will simply stop being listed - or at least significantly less of them - which is a good thing considering NGS's extraordinarily bad search functions.

The way the balance goes with listing fees in pretty much any game is a fight between amount taken and duration. So say 2.5% is 2 weeks, 5% for a month. That's not really a huge ask for the convenience of listing things longer. Yet it's still high enough that for high ticket items it becomes expensive quickly after more than a few listings.

Another major point when implementing listing fees is the ability to adjust prices without taking the listing down (the fee is non refundable after all). So being able to lower your price is a must to keep everything fair to the seller. The expiration remains unchanged as well as the fee they already paid, but they can adjust the price as needed to give them the best chance to sell. If they decide to increase their price for w/e reason, the difference in tax will be charged but expiration still remains set to the original listing.

I think listing fees should be much higher for red price items at least. I haven’t been playing games lately so my memory might be fuzzy but I recall Tree of Savior having reasonable listing fees for the first 24hrs and much higher prices for anything longer, this encouraged sellers to plan their prices more thoughtfully and I believe there was a small currency penalty for changing the price after listing it but it wasn’t bad. Basically they wanted sellers to actually move inventory, not clog up the market with overpriced stuff that could take months to sell. Buyers were given a fair price right off the bat, not having to wait until sellers got desperate enough to lower the price. A less cluttered market would benefit everyone since SEGA still hasn’t figured out better search functions on the market.

It’s a fine line between not screwing over the buyers and keeping things convenient enough for the sellers to keep listing their stuff, if it’s not perfectly balanced then at least one side is unhappy. I think sellers might gripe about the added tax but it’s fair in the real world for selling something and it’s fair in other games. Maybe not tax the heck out of someone just trying to sell something for 100k but for 10m? Absolutely they should be taxed heavily for that.

@Milk high price items rarely, if ever, clutter up a market. The lack of a listing tax makes markets get cluttered with low value trash (like <4* weapons with no fixa). Making people pay a tax on an item they're competing to sell against hundreds of others at market minimum will insure that those items don't get listed in nearly the quantity we see cluttering the market today.

I have never actually seen a game try to charge an increased tax on higher value goods, that's why we use percentages so it scales with price. You deter unreasonable over pricing by setting a reasonable tax with a relatively short base duration to the listing. The problem here being that high value items don't usually move quickly, and not because they are "over priced" (think houses, high demand but people need time to save to afford one and then find "the one" for them). So pushing more harsh taxes on listing them will 100% cause them to simply not be listed until a buyer is found on the forums/discord/3rd party site ahead of time. At the end of the day, the seller is the one that decides if it's worth their time and money using the market system making them the most important player in the equation. The buyer's only true concern is ease of use when it comes to the market UI, not the system itself when it comes to listing.

You are correct though, it's a fine line to find that balance. Most games I've played the tax for listing has only ever ranged from 1-5%, the sales tax ranging from 0-10%. However, those markets with durations typically stretch from 4 hours to literally a year. One consistent thing with those widely varying durations was that the longer you had it listed the more you were going to pay in listing fees. So take from that what you will, it's why I suggested 2.5% base and 7.5% sales tax with 2 week listing being the default time.