Where the content sega?

@Miraglyth said in Where the content sega?:

This is not what anyone in this topic has been saying. There's a difference between wanting a reasonable challenge and wanting a 22-minute DPS rush that requires 22 minutes of iframe-dodging perfection in the face of instant-killing attacks where any two mistakes causes instant failure.

Give us harder stuff, absolutely, but don't turn the game into the action RPG equivalent of a bullet hell to satisfy a vocal 1% because that's not what virtually any game needs, let alone one struggling for content and keeping players' attention.

Twisted with Hatred isn't anything bullet hell esque. Its difficult was fairly reasonable and even a bit on the easier side if you ran optimal class combos. You shouldn't get OHKO'd by ordinary attacks on anything that ran God units (reasonable for the absolute endgame quest) even running something like Phantom, and a lot of classes either had extra resists or reliable multi use iron will like Hero's or Luster's. Even if it was just a bullet hell for 1% why is it wrong that minority of players that are much more obsessed over pure gameplay than the average get their quest that's entirely reused assets?

There isn't any objective measure of difficulty outside of aiming for some percentile of players to clear it, and even then the % clearing is also affected by whether they even bother doing it or how eased into the content they were. In similar vein there's nothing inherently cheap about requiring the players to keep high dodge rate for a lengthy quest. These are just the basic action game mechanics.

I feel that difficulty is mostly misunderstood by casual sour grapes crowd that can't stomach a single quest that wasn't made for them, while many people who want a bit more spicy fun have to stomach going through a large amount of absolutely boring quests while everyone who isn't them pretends that they can just play like idiots to make it harder.

@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

Have a normal mode and have a nightmare mode [snip] They can also add titles for it later whenever they finally get around to doing that.

@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

Easy content has no longevity. You clear it, repeat and move on.

Thanks for introducing that slippery slope.

"Nightmare" content that literally only gives titles also has no longevity. The 1% will invariably find a way to clear it (possibly involving cheese that subsequently gets removed) and do you honestly claim they would be satisfied by a mere title? That they would keep running the same UQs on nightmare mode with nothing else to gain from it?

No, they would progress to vocally demanding better rewards for the effort. A unique currency like modules, unique cosmetic drops or straight up higher-tier equipment that only drops in nightmare mode, so they can feel like it's worth their effort (read: so they can enjoy their superiority over all those other peons).

And once those cries inevitably get capitulated to, you've created a backdoor route to shutting the majority of the player base out.

Simply raising difficulty and calling something "Nightmare" does not magically add longevity in exactly the same way that instantly raising the level cap to x and letting players grind ad infinitum in search of bigger numbers doesn't add variety. It's still the same content with the same replay value, just with different numbers.


More content would be variety within the challenges. Different bosses or a variety of modifiers for existing bosses, different areas to fight in, random occurrences like intense weather bursts with stat or PA debuffs or the arrival of a meteor full of enemies to mix things up during UQs themselves. None of these things require arbitrarily dialling up enemy stats and giving them cheap instant-kill attacks and DPS checks, but they would still add replay value.

I mean, imagine a version of Monopoly where all the Chance or Community Chest spaces were replaced by empty spaces and with no jail. Would that be improved by adding a "nightmare mode" where everyone only gets one dice and $100 for passing Go, or would it be improved by putting Chance, Community Chest and jail back in the game?


@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

Even if it was just a bullet hell for 1% why is it wrong that minority of players that are much more obsessed over pure gameplay than the average get their quest that's entirely reused assets?

Deferring to morality is an interesting approach. There's nothing wrong with it, but that's not the point here. The point is if the developmental effort goes into that at the expense of content that 100% of players including the 1% could enjoy, it was a poor use of developmental effort. There are quick wins that are better for the faltering player base as a whole.

You can call Twisted With Hatred "fairly reasonable" all you want, but it is an indisputable fact that most people didn't do it. I'll turn this around on you: With NGS sorely lacking content and with an apparently crawling pace of new content being added, is it wrong to want what little we do get to be available for more than a known minority of players at the expense of everyone else who will likely quit in response?

@Miraglyth I said that purely with just the content we already have. Small things they could introduce in. I'm not sure how they'd go about doing it in this game. In other MMOs with a trinity based system they've been able to do this.

For example, they would have 2 difficulties of a dungeon. The normal mode pretty much all casuals could clear and then a harder mode that would require people to be good at their class and put out good dps. The normal mode didn't drop the endgame weapons as a base drop like the harder mode could but you could still earn it because it would drop some token thingo which could be exchanged to a npc and once you got enough of them you could make that endgame weapon. This token would also drop in hard mode.

So basically on harder difficulty you are rewarded with a chance at getting the endgame weapon/armor as a straight drop where as in the lower tier difficulty you are still awarded with tokens that could later be exchanged for the same endgame weapons/gear. With this you are actually rewarded for getting better but even if you don't you only progress at a slightly slower pace.

@Miraglyth said in Where the content sega?:

No, they would progress to vocally demanding better rewards for the effort. A unique currency like modules, unique cosmetic drops or straight up higher-tier equipment that only drops in nightmare mode, so they can feel like it's worth their effort (read: so they can enjoy their superiority over all those other peons).

Endless titles just gave a good bunch of SG once acquired and nothing beyond it. Masq floor 999 and the entire grind offered nothing all that valuable compared to the time put into it. Sodam 100 gave an eyestone at floor 50 which was easy to get, and one at floor 100 which was a bit less casual but still not exactly the absolutely hardest thing in existence to complete once. HTPD had crazy good drop rates at a time where everyone has had their chance to get all that stuff there was and the economy didn't give a shit.

Deferring to morality is an interesting approach. There's nothing wrong with it, but that's not the point here. The point is if the developmental effort goes into that at the expense of content that 100% of players including the 1% could enjoy, it was a poor use of developmental effort. There are quick wins that are better for the faltering player base as a whole.

If a game is too easy for someone it can also be not fun for that exact reason. I am skipping through most of the UQs in NGS precisely because they are absolutely boring. You also fail to see that hard content it extremely easy to scale down by relaxing win conditions, or having lower numbers on the enemies, or simply sealing some enemy moves. It's like pretending EP6 was the hardest to make because you also had to scale enemy numbers for difficulties below Ultra Hard.

Funny that you call it morality approach while also trying to paint everyone as sweaty neckbeard who just want to feel superior to other people for having beaten something.

You can call Twisted With Hatred "fairly reasonable" all you want, but it is an indisputable fact that most people didn't do it.

Most people also don't finish games they bought, whether due to not wanting to put effort or disliking them. I would be hard pressed to call most games hard to beat accounting for their easiest difficulty options.

is it wrong to want what little we do get to be available for more than a known minority of players at the expense of everyone else who will likely quit in response?

Lower difficulty settings exist. Nobody tells them to design a quest for top 1% while not also having an easy mirror with lower difficulty for everyone else. Taking your line of thought further you might start wondering why everyone isn't giving a god mode for the 100% to be able to enjoy their game. Turns out everyone expects something different from the difficulty and both overshooting and undershooting their expectations has negative results. The balanced approach has always been to provide difficulty gradient one way or another instead of overzealously pandering to only one group. A minority of players not targeted by the difficulty might as well be overwhelmingly more of payers, or even the actual vocal and often passionate 1% who can weight much more than just their numbers.

@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

The normal mode pretty much all casuals could clear and then a harder mode that would require people to be good at their class and put out good dps.

Sure, okay. As I've said repeatedly, this would be fine provided the "harder mode" is merely reasonable and not Twisted With Hatred tier.

This whole discussion could be set down if people calling for difficulty simply acknowledged that calling for something that'd be difficult by their exceptional standards while simultaneously calling Space-Time Interstice depth 100 or Twisted With Hatred easy... is calling for content that by definition most people couldn't do.

There is something between Easy and the so-called Nightmare. It's called "Normal", or "Hard". Are you calling for "Hard", or are you calling for "Nightmare"? I'm totally on board with adding Hard. But it feels like some actors here are calling for Nightmare and pretending like they're calling for Hard because they feel that would make the request more palatable. That's what I'm getting at.

We could get the equivalent of Extreme Quests or Ultimate Quests and that would be more difficult content without being exclusory. We don't have to jump to Twisted With Hatred while anyone who can't do it is still left with nothing new to do.


@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

HTPD had crazy good drop rates at a time where everyone has had their chance to get all that stuff there was and the economy didn't give a shit.

Absolute freaking nonsense. The 1% that were regularly clearing Twisted With Hatred (the heck does "HTPD" stand for again? "Hatred Twisted Profound Darkness"? What?) were openly joking about trashing their excess Klauz units because they felt it would upset the majority of players who didn't own any and never had a way to get them that didn't require dozens of hours of grinding Divides or fantastic luck with drops from Abyss or Sodam on Divide 31-34 (provided they could win that at all).

This is a perfect example of what I'm getting at, because it highlights perfectly the divide between the minority best players in the game and everyone else. A divide that you don't want to add as the only content addition to a game that is becoming infamous for its lack of content.


@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

Funny that you call it morality approach while also trying to paint everyone as sweaty neckbeard

And now you're deferring to putting pathetic insults in my mouth. Asking "is it wrong" is a morality approach, and I have never made such crass insults to anyone who wants content that by its nature would exclude other players as if that exclusion itself made it more valuable as content.

Please don't do this again. I have no time for it.


@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

Lower difficulty settings exist.

Oh silly me, all this time I totally missed that Twisted With Hatred had Normal through Extremely Hard difficulties where you could still get the Klauz weapon camo that didn't drop anywhere else and an almost certain drop rate for Klauz units that were an incredible rarity or dozens of hours of grind by any other quest. My bad! 😒

@Miraglyth said in Where the content sega?:

@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

HTPD had crazy good drop rates at a time where everyone has had their chance to get all that stuff there was and the economy didn't give a shit.

Absolute freaking nonsense. The 1% that were regularly clearing Twisted With Hatred (the heck does "HTPD" stand for again? "Hatred Twisted Profound Darkness"? What?) were openly joking about trashing their excess Klauz units because they felt it would upset the majority of players who didn't own any and never had a way to get them that didn't require dozens of hours of grinding Divides or fantastic luck with drops from Abyss or Sodam on Divide 31-34 (provided they could win that at all).

This is a perfect example of what I'm getting at, because it highlights perfectly the divide between the minority best players in the game and everyone else. A divide that you don't want to add as the only content addition to a game that is becoming infamous for its lack of content.

Dozens of hours in Divides for absolutely endgame gear is nothing, after having beaten the last tier of game's difficulty - HTPD (stands for Hatred True Profound Darkness btw) you would get more drops from the previous tier that would be only useful assuming you didn't have full Klauz ready for the final challenge, and what the fuck do you need full Klauz for that isn't literally just HTPD or solo time attacks? I am all for having content that has gear parity mechanics but most people wouldn't like it so feeling that their grind is wasted or something. HTPD did jackshit to create divide when it was 90% people with full or nearly full Klauz getting closer to completing their set.


@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

Funny that you call it morality approach while also trying to paint everyone as sweaty neckbeard

And now you're deferring to putting pathetic insults in my mouth. Asking "is it wrong" is a morality approach, and I have never made such crass insults to anyone who wants content that by its nature would exclude other players as if that exclusion itself made it more valuable as content.

Please don't do this again. I have no time for it.

And I don't want to deal with another person who pretends that they didn't verbatim say that the evil 1% does all that "so they can enjoy their superiority over all those other peons". You're also heavily trying to control the narrative that adding a higher difficulty is excluding someone when it's simply pandering to both preferences. Casual players aren't some weak sickly and fragile victims of elitism, and similarly hardcore players aren't virtual predators. Those are both types of people playing video games who want to do different things on the same playground. Not having a hard difficulty is nearly as excluding as not having an easy difficulty.

@Miraglyth The thing is you're never going to be able to strike a balance there. People who are casual are always going to struggle with actually difficult content. I said nightmare initially but what I really want is just something actually hard. A lot of games put "hard mode" in their games as a difficulty but it's not actually hard. It's more like a normal mode and the normal mode is the super easy mode. So yeah it should be actually difficult.

Twisted of hatred tier was probably hard for some people because they didn't have god units. You take significantly less damage. I think that may be the case too because so many people hated the affix system and wanted nothing to do with it. Every time I pugged UQ before twisted came out I would inspect peoples gear. It was absolutely atrocious.

I get some people want to try make the arguement that there's no content outside of twisted that really requires god affixes but with how easy it was to make them (esp after NGS got announced due to doomers, cradle and price dips) there's really no excuse. It wasn't hard to affix either. There's guides out there that walk you through the entire process step by step. Making it practically impossible to screw up.

@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

If a game is too easy for someone it can also be not fun for that exact reason.

To back this up, I personally find all the normal content in the game so easy that after finishing grinding it/going back to it after a newer thing comes out, it makes me feel nothing. Except PSE bursts. I'm not even nearly a top player either, because I stopped grinding depths in solo sodam after clearing 60 (got really boring after doing it so much nonstop for 6 days, and it was getting genuinely frustrating thanks to my aforementioned horrid connection. planning on working that out soon and i'll probably go and finish up sodam sometime after).

If it wasn't for the small playerbase, UQs could pretty easily have 3-5 difficulties to suit the needs of everyone, but with our small playerbase we could probably only support 2. It makes me wonder whether the second difficulty would be better off as super hard or just hard. Forgot they scale now. Could probably get away with 3?

@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

In that regards the lack of content lies entirely within the direction and not any resource/workhours thing.

This is the EXACT issue and why this game will forever be bad.

@Pariah-Chan said in Where the content sega?:

So either the game is supposed to be made beyond easy, or leech proof?

I mean I wouldn’t mind a casual section of the game that isn’t all tight knit raid mode, because the Gigantix showed wat was waiting under the surface if ppl had to be strategic about stuff.

Worried about boss stunning mechanics will cause more elitism when the desert comes out. My only hope is it doesn’t end up like FF13 that requires you to stun a boss to do any actual damage. 🤞

You bring up a good point about the giga toxicity, but this was always the case both on JP and global. Runs with randoms were notorious on both versions (before expert matchmaking on JP), the difference was that having the ability to lock a room and organize a static party gave people a chance to avoid the randoms.

Sadly there will always be elitism to a degree. That's why I want lockable rooms, because nothing made me madder than watching people argue mid-boss fight as if we weren't on a timer x.x.

@Shiyo said in Where the content sega?:

@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

In that regards the lack of content lies entirely within the direction and not any resource/workhours thing.

This is the EXACT issue and why this game will forever be bad.

FFXIV 1.0 was being developed for years by the producer and director of FFXI, taking resources away from FFXI during that time. The game went through multiple betas full of player criticism but they still launched it anyway to dismal reception. They fixed none of the major criticisms between beta and release. Around 3 months after it launched Square Enix put out a statement on how they were replacing the current director and producer with Naoki Yoshida and everyone knows the story from there.

I was around for FFXIV 1.0 during all this and I was around for PSO2 launch in JP back in 2012. NGS reminds me way more of the FFXIV 1.0 disaster than it does launch PSO2. When I check for NGS news I'm always wondering if I will get to see a similar statement from Sega about replacing the current producer and director of NGS so they can try to salvage the direction of this game. PSO2 has had more competent directors in the past with Yu Suganuma (Episode 3) and Tetsuo Yoshioka (Episode 6); or maybe they could give it to someone relatively unknown in the company like Naoki Yoshida was at the time. Anything would be better than having the same director that almost killed PSO2 with Episode 5 and Hero.

I wouldn't mind seeing the project headed by Yuya Kimura. That man did a phenomenal job when he worked on p2. Maybe even co-director with Yosk since imo that could bring the best of both worlds, and both have experience when it comes to salvaging current director's mistakes.

@Shiyo said in Where the content sega?:

@Hooonter said in Where the content sega?:

In that regards the lack of content lies entirely within the direction and not any resource/workhours thing.

This is the EXACT issue and why this game will forever be bad.

I still don't understand the doom casting some of you partake in. Have SOME faith in the game

@XenoBladeX37645 It is honestly hard to believe in the game, at least the Global version anyway, when you consider PSO1 and PSU. Sega just has too much of a history of prioritizing the JP servers at the expense of other regions.

Like I have no doubt that Sega will find some way to save the JP version. However, I am unsure of the Global version.

@XenoBladeX37645

Its kinda sad tho that you still believe we are doom casting. Faith my friend is good as long as it does not turn you into a lunatic.

Fact is most people are gone now and wont return. This includes old and new players so NGS already failed bringing new players into the game that chance is gone for ever. And out of the people still playing more and more also leave the game. Some will return for Braver and the Desert Region but Braver wont keep people playing its still the same content and the Desert will fail if its the same lazy content we have now.

So yeah have faith. But once the Desert Zone hits and player numbers are still decreasing then you should wake up and accept reality already. To be honest the Winter patch is Segas last chance and we all know that. If they fail that one its pretty much game over. A little bit later Blue Protocol will release and Sega lost all the time and momentum to compete. So yeah the Winter patch will decide the fate of NGS.