Where the content sega?

@Flowen231 said in Where the content sega?:

Also one thing that sticks out. Regardless of how hard it really was, it was memorable content.

For you maybe. As for us mere mortals in the proverbial 99% it's kind of impossible to remember something we couldn't do.


@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

I'm not trying to be rude or anything but I think NA MMO players are just bad in general.

Didn't it have a fairly low clear rate even on JP? I know they probably got to 100% at least but I don't expect they were generating thousands of drops in the Item Log where Global (not NA) were getting mere tens (compared to thousands in Abyss right up to NGS launch).

I give Global (not NA) players a pass on this one because we had both Twisted and its predecessor Space-Time Interstice for a shorter time than JP did (a couple months and around half a year respectively including a much more manageable two clears per day), and modules from Divide Quests for way less time. With the time JP had to both skill up and gear up I'd have been attempting Twisted on day one. As it stands I'm still barely half way to making Klauz units (and don't get me started on god augment capsules, JP can still get those now while Global has no mission badge sources post-NGS).


@LusterMain said in Where the content sega?:

Pso2 just does not have a difficulty curve. Nearly everything in the game is very easy, and the challenge content is extremely difficult in comparison with pretty much nothing inbetween.

Fully agreed. I'd like to see difficult content, not a bizarre pair of trivial and inaccessible. PSO2 and the way it aged did this terribly because we ended up with Extreme Quests that weren't remotely extreme, Ultimate Quests that weren't remotely ultimate, and four difficulties with "Hard" in their name that were anything but.

The last of those and how silly it looked is probably why the second tier of Mt. Magnus and Vanford are simply called "Rank 2" now. And so help me if we have to have a Rank 5, Rank 6 and so on for all combat sectors with a new one every level cap raise... it just splits up rooms to have that many completely worthless interim difficulties IMO. I'd much prefer to see them elevate Rank 2 to have level 30 enemies after Retem releases so each combat sector has its original difficulty and an endgame difficulty that keeps up. But that's getting a bit off-topic maybe.


@samsaralotus said in Where the content sega?:

good way will be to "force" some mid core content on the players by the mid point of leveling , in story as well. so they need to clear to move on.

I don't know if story is the best place for it - really if anything story is probably where the baseline of difficulty should be so players at the lower end of the ability scale don't get hard locked out of being able to progress and are effectively forced to quit the game entirely.

But some mid-tier optional but directed content that gives progress seems very sensible. It's a bit strange to me that not only is the highest tier of NGS gear (4★) at launch completely accessible from enemies 5 levels below the player level cap, but that farming under-levelled enemies is the best way to hunt for preset augments.

If and when we get 5★ equipment it feels like it should be limited to content that requires a bit (read: not a lot, but a bit) of ability to really do well in for a while. Gigantix didn't count because the weather dependency makes it super inaccessible to attempt (not to mention no fun, waiting isn't gameplay) and because most Gigantix kills are from mobbing it with 32 level 20 players to take advantage of their probably non-linear health scaling so even bringing bad players is probably better than having one less player hitting it.

I get the impression Defense Quests will be instanced like Urgent Quests are, so that's an opportunity to be a reasonable challenge. Not "Have all gear +40 and perfect i-frame dodges for 20 minutes or you lose" challenge, but "pay attention and don't just run around swinging a sword like a fool or you lose" challenge. Rather than tuning the difficulty (which I suspect they'll want to have checked carefully after the Gigantix release) I'm more worried that it'll be a repeat of Buster Quests where a good 50% of the quest was spent tediously waiting with no variety between runs. If they can make it fun and add variety, Defense Quests could be the start of what we're looking for.

@Zoe said in Where the content sega?:

That said: I'd always err on the side of making things too easy rather than too hard, because it's a trifle to increase the difficulty for yourself via handicapping, whereas reducing the difficulty for yourself is far less trivial (unless cheese strats are available).

But that's the problem: nobody wants to make difficulty for themselves no matter how fun they claim it is, and if there are no unique rewards, nobody gives a flip. So they blame casuals and the devs for lacking the courage to make more "challenging" content. (Also, they all love cheese strats and use them with glee to get to the special rewards faster, so it's all pretty much disingenous BS). It's always someone elses job to satisfy them and always someone elses fault for failing to meet their demands.

There IS content. The problem is it is nowhere challenging enough other than the lv24 gigas that can be steamrolled with a small but good geared team. There's no meaningful singleplayer content for exploration and solo play, lackluster events and drops, and inflated prices all around = massive player loss.

The #1 issue with MMO's right now is difficulty. I've also found that the second any game has some type of difficulty, the replay value and overall gameplay greatly increases. I'm beyond sick of easy games.

@Not-Important no there is non and by lvl 20 no of it hard what so ever. you can now solo gigas for the most parts as well. the only content is grind and 2 UQ.

@Shiyo thing is when ever you want any game to have harder content you gat flamed by all the losers that will say " but is a casual game" as if its mean any thing.

Even before considering proper fail conditions right now Sega is doing nothing to give people level appropriate areas and quests (level 20) and instead opts to lock the only level 17 and 24 enemies behind heavy time gating. If Defense Quests are just UQ then that solves nothing and in fact just serves to break their promise of less UQ dependency, similarly to how the last two months have been spent not addressing the issue in any way. Current combat and exploration zones are tuned just for leveling and nothing beyond. It's a grand opportunity for Sega to add some affixes everyone would like to see (ranged/tech soul alternatives, all attack affixes, various combinations of damage ups with secondary stats) behind level 20 quests or whole zones and all that's necessary for it is just a minecraft tier cocoon map on top of another layer of ranks for exploration/combat zones. In that regards the lack of content lies entirely within the direction and not any resource/workhours thing.

@Zoe said in Where the content sega?:

To quote Ghostcrawler from 2013: "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite."

People naturally improve at games as they play, it's a natural consequence of pattern repetition. This learning process however is individual. Some people learn faster than others, some people plateau earlier than others. However, if the difficulty was static, content would just keep getting easier for people until they plateau. Difficulty curves exist to counteract that and keep the engagement level roughly the same.

Nobody is denying this, although the extent to which it actually applies is questionable. Players are not going to be trained for high-difficulty content by just playing easy stuff for thousands of hours unless they specifically went out of their way to. The criticism I am making is not that the game is too easy and should be harder, but that it does an abysmal job at bridging the gap between the majority of the content (which is faceroll difficulty) and the hard content, and that as a result it is not surprising that there are fewer "good" players than some would expect.

I do not particularly care if pso2 is easy or challenging as I am going to have fun either way, but I would not mind if we got actual difficulty choices for UQs and such (which cannot be replaced by merely handicapping yourself, as a different difficulty level allows for the boss to gain new attacks, mechanics, change speed, etc.), even if they didn't affect rewards, as what we have now is just options to scale to what tier of gear progression we are at. It would give these UQs much more longevity as there would be a reason to play them even after grinding your brains out for their drops.

Also, making hard content absolutely does induce players to rise to the occasion - but also discourages other players. The problem that many things face in this regard is that the hard content is too much harder than what should be expected based on how the game has trained the player and it turns too many people away (be it just discouraging or actually unreasonable), thus why pso2 lacking a difficulty curve is an issue.

Mind you, that's for mandatory content. You have more leeway in, as you put it, weakly incentivized side content, precisely because people can choose not to pursue it if they don't feel adequately engaged by it, either because of boredom or frustration. It's certainly a lot better than to try and herd people into and then try to compensate them with rewards. As such, I'm quite happy that's the way they did it before.

I think having weakly incentivized side content is fine and take no particular issue with it, but the problem that pso2 runs into is that said content is the only thing present to bridge the gap between the very easy normal content and the comparatively extremely difficult hard content, and it is just not effective at doing so.

I mean for the people who have a problem with some of the "harder" stuff they could easily just have 2 versions. A normal mode for the more casual crowd with a lower drop rate and a way harder mode with a slightly higher drop rate. As long as they balance it right you wont have people who feel forced to get better if they don't want to.

It doesn’t need harder content, it needs MORE content.

Like I’ll be kinda glad when mission pass arrives again, cuz it fills a content void otherwise. Looking back at pso2, I wonder how much idling in the lobby would have happened if it didn’t exist.

I know mission pass isn’t new gameplay, but it’s SOMETHING. If this slow release of new content persists into the next year, expect even the most fervent of fans to walk away in boredom.

@Pariah-Chan

Harder content has more longevity. I do not think that anyone is asking that everything they add should be extremely difficult, but at the least we could get difficulty options on UQs for players who wish to play for the gameplay, and it wouldn't require that much effort to implement, I think.

@Yggranya said in Where the content sega?:

But that's the problem: nobody wants to make difficulty for themselves no matter how fun they claim it is, and if there are no unique rewards, nobody gives a flip. So they blame casuals and the devs for lacking the courage to make more "challenging" content. (Also, they all love cheese strats and use them with glee to get to the special rewards faster, so it's all pretty much disingenous BS). It's always someone elses job to satisfy them and always someone elses fault for failing to meet their demands.

This is true to a degree. The thing is that self handicapping usually involves the player nerfing themselves via abstaining from using their best gear. Gearing yourself is part of the experience, and abstaining from using your best gear is robbing yourself of part of the experience. Content needing to be rewarding, and cheese strats also go hand in hand, because at the end of the day this is a grind game. People will cheese wherever they can to alleviate grind fatigue (not helped by lack of shop and trading in NGS' case) and nobody wants to play content in a grinding game where they don't make resource progress (though I am guilty of doing this myself lol, I played pso1, psz, and psp2i just for the hell of it. Fucking loved those games). EDIT: (NM, pso1, psz, and 2i do count since you could get drops and potentially good rewards pretty much anywhere x.x)

The best endgame I can think of where all of this came together perfectly was Tower of Mirages in Dragon's Crown. DC didn't have a whole lot of content, but ToM was the perfect recycle challenge. Every floor was semi randomized in terms of layout and enemies, and there was a pattern dictating which boss was waiting at the end. It started out easy, but around floor 500 (out of 50,000) it started becoming around as difficult as the regular endgame. There was a chance to encounter rare, powered up versions of enemies and bosses that had unique attacks and were extremely tough but dropped great loot with unique effects that couldn't be obtained in the main game, like the ability to turn poison arrows into ice arrows. High challenge that you get eased into, unique (though not necessarily OP because RNG abilities) loot, unique encounters, basically endless by most people's standards. I want something like that in ngs. EDIT2: Forgot to mention, ToM had a guaranteed rare item drop at the end of every single floor. The game featured randomized affixes though, and generally higher leveled content gave better affixes, but if you found an item you really liked on the way you could repeat a floor over and over to farm out a decent one, so the 50k floors all had a degree of replayability.

@LusterMain I think they could potentially make Side Stroy content challenging. In PSO1 some side story quests, especially on ultimate difficulty were a challenge and a half, and in some cases they were also really good farming spots. Later on when they added Government quests, some of those were incredibly tough and also good farming spots. But with that being said, I don't know how well it would work in NGS since story stuff isn't repeatable, nor do you get drops so it wouldn't really work well for farm or practice. And even if they did drop items, NGS has area drops instead of mob specific drops so it would be no better than what we have now x.x.

@Yggranya said in Where the content sega?:

(Also, they all love cheese strats and use them with glee to get to the special rewards faster, so it's all pretty much disingenous BS).

Oh man I can't even express how much this resonates. I've seen one or two games where these exploiting jerks abuse cheese enough in new challenge content to get a bunch of their rewards (substantial gear upgrades) and then when the cheese is fixed tell everyone who didn't abuse the cheese before the drawbridge was raised to "git gud" and beat the challenge content in a way they never had to thanks to cheesing their way into an advance on good enough gear to make the new challenge easy. It's kind of disgusting.


@samsaralotus said in Where the content sega?:

@Shiyo thing is when ever you want any game to have harder content you gat flamed by all the losers that will say " but is a casual game" as if its mean any thing.

This is not what anyone in this topic has been saying. There's a difference between wanting a reasonable challenge and wanting a 22-minute DPS rush that requires 22 minutes of iframe-dodging perfection in the face of instant-killing attacks where any two mistakes causes instant failure.

Give us harder stuff, absolutely, but don't turn the game into the action RPG equivalent of a bullet hell to satisfy a vocal 1% because that's not what virtually any game needs, let alone one struggling for content and keeping players' attention.


@Pariah-Chan said in Where the content sega?:

It doesn’t need harder content, it needs MORE content.

Bingo. That content can be a bit more of a challenge (within reason, I stress) but it could also be with a fun grind (for instance bingo cards) or a game mode with considerable variety Divide Quest style, or simply a better volume NPC tasks with dialogue to wade through. Or a mixture of them all so the various additions themselves have variety.


I don't think it's been mentioned yet but it's nice to see the new 9th Anniversary daily tasks are trying something a bit different, like yesterday's need to defeat silver/gold enemies in Resol Forest. Yes it's just a different combination of things we've already done and can do, but it's nice to have just a bit of variety in the dailies compared to the usual 30 symbol enemies and 1 veteran.

It feels like they could do more with variety for these because a daily routine of "food, mag, collect something, kill 50 things in a combat sector and find the alpha reactors" is becoming very stagnant and surely contributing to the feeling the game is lacking content. If there was a wider pool of tasks that was randomly drawn from each day that could be a bit more interesting.

I would like to point to FFXIV's Ultimate Raids as an example of difficult content. The expectation for Ultimate raids is 50+ hours of prog, minimum. It can take a group momths to clear, depending on how many raid nights they have. The reward is just cosmetic too, basically just prestige.

Games can have a demand for difficult content without people saying it is a casual game. FFXIV honestly does cater heavily to casual players as most of the content is very forgiving and does not require large time investment in terms of learning to clear. This is part of FFXIV's design philosophy where they aren't trying to force you to be constantly playing and try to respect your time. Which ends up with them somehow having a lot more meaningful content overall.

@Pariah-Chan It needs both. It's not like they can't add both at the same time. When they release urgent quests for example. Have a normal mode and have a nightmare mode that buffs the drop rate slightly for those willing to go the extra mile to clear it. They can also add titles for it later whenever they finally get around to doing that.

Easy content has no longevity. You clear it, repeat and move on. Harder content is something that actually requires progress and it's something you work toward. Maybe I'm just oldschool but I really enjoy the satisfaction of clearing something difficult. I remember spending days figuring out strats for new difficult bosses in older MMOs with my group and eventually clearing without any help from guides or any of that crap. It's the best feeling and it's what got me going back.

@Pariah-Chan it do need more content and harder one as well. easy content is boring after 1/2 times. when was the last time you cared to defend or doge anything