Where the content sega?

@LusterMain said in Where the content sega?:

@Flowen231 said in Where the content sega?:

I have never died fighting sodam, not even on the solo depth 100, nor did I fail any of the depths, I always finished with hella time to spare.

I agree with most content being really easy, but you realize that this makes you probably the ~1% (if not way less) of the total playerbase and makes the rest of the post come off as kinda arrogant as a result? I also call BS. Nex Aelio/Vera are not at all harder than the hardest stuff base PSO2 had to offer lmao.

I think twisted by hate being hard is a result of the same pattern repeating itself

Twisted isn't hard because of the pattern, it just is hard. Very high health, very high damage, a relatively very short timer, and only one death allowed between four players.

Gray phase is ridiculous in its difficulty due to how many attacks going off at once + all the attacks either 1 shotting or near 1 shotting you + cant just sit around and do no damage cause of the strict dps check for killing the boss. I wish it was around more often though, its fun group content.

@Miraglyth @LusterMain Thing is, I'm not particularly remarkable. My plan vs sodam depths was to just copy the 7:41 time that I saw on youtube, but I couldn't even get sub 8 when i reached depth 100.

When it comes to monster hunter, I'm fairly average, I'll kart and win eventually til I memorize the patterns. When I play Ys on nightmare mode, I straight up lose a lot of fights and retry many times, vs people who just steamroll the game. When I play souls and soulslike games I tend to fail often and learn and do better til I eventually win.

See PSO2 never really did that to me. I know difficulty is subjective, some people think nex vera solo is a breeze but they struggled vs sodam which is the exact opposite of my experience. But I see myself as an average player, I see pso2 content as easy, and when the main reason for failure is "I didn't know how to use my class" I see that more as the player's fault for not learning the class rather than the game presenting something that is mechanically difficult, and it's not like legacy skill matters either since PSO2 was vastly different from the games before it.

@Riesz I thought DQs in general were fairly easy, and thought that the final stage bosses were easier than some of the challenges leading up to them. Before I finished my final unit set I was running 26-30 and 31-35 with my old ep 5 units, they all had persona rev and only 115 all attack. I thought mitra and varuna were pretty easy because for whatever reason varuna barely attacks when you go in solo, and imo shiva was easier than stage 30.

@Flowen231 said in Where the content sega?:

@Riesz I thought DQs in general were fairly easy, and thought that the final stage bosses were easier than some of the challenges leading up to them. Before I finished my final unit set I was running 26-30 and 31-35 with my old ep 5 units, they all had persona rev and only 115 all attack. I thought mitra and varuna were pretty easy because for whatever reason varuna barely attacks when you go in solo, and imo shiva was easier than stage 30.

Then idk what to tell you dude they are hard, just because they're easy to you doesn't mean they're not hard.

@Flowen231 said in Where the content sega?:

Thing is, I'm not particularly remarkable. My plan vs sodam depths was to just copy the 7:41 time that I saw on youtube, but I couldn't even get sub 8 when i reached depth 100.

When it comes to monster hunter, I'm fairly average, I'll kart and win eventually til I memorize the patterns. When I play Ys on nightmare mode, I straight up lose a lot of fights and retry many times, vs people who just steamroll the game. When I play souls and soulslike games I tend to fail often and learn and do better til I eventually win.

See PSO2 never really did that to me. I know difficulty is subjective, some people think nex vera solo is a breeze but they struggled vs sodam which is the exact opposite of my experience. But I see myself as an average player, I see pso2 content as easy, and when the main reason for failure is "I didn't know how to use my class" I see that more as the player's fault for not learning the class rather than the game presenting something that is mechanically difficult, and it's not like legacy skill matters either since PSO2 was vastly different from the games before it.

@Riesz I thought DQs in general were fairly easy, and thought that the final stage bosses were easier than some of the challenges leading up to them. Before I finished my final unit set I was running 26-30 and 31-35 with my old ep 5 units, they all had persona rev and only 115 all attack. I thought mitra and varuna were pretty easy because for whatever reason varuna barely attacks when you go in solo, and imo shiva was easier than stage 30.

I think difficulty of content was extremely class reliant though. For example, Solo Sodam is infinitely easier to clear on a luster than it is on any non scion, and way easier to hit damage check on luster than Et

@Rorana Could be. My most used classes were Luster, Hero, Fighter, and Phantom in that order. But I only ever did sodam on luster since it was my favorite ;p.

EDIT: I think a lot of it comes from the ability to cancel attacks into defensive options at any time actually. You can kinda still do this in NGS but in a lot of cases you are stuck in the animations until a certain point, same with mh, souls, and ys. But in pso2 you can just yolo go ham and
i-frame mid attack. Could also be one of those things where if you don't get left behind with the game's pace it becomes a lot easier.

@LusterMain I will take your praise then lol.

@Riesz said in Where the content sega?:

Also what about the high floors of Divide quests?

Honestly, I didn't find divide that difficult and the most I struggled with it was getting owned by Shiva for a bit because I was just playing the fight wrong (no it wasn't her counter) and making it harder for no reason. I can understand why many would struggle though.

EDIT: I was wrong, I forgot about my horrible connection making elimination stages nearly impossible. But that's not really the fault of my skill or the game's balancing...

Also Ultimate quests were hard when the best gear we had at certain points in the game was the gear that dropped from them. Now they're really easy because we can easily get gear that can absolutely destroy them but they were hard in the past.

We were slightly overtuned for ultimates in global, but some of those minibosses are still the most annoying enemies...

@Flowen231 said in Where the content sega?:

Thing is, I'm not particularly remarkable. My plan vs sodam depths was to just copy the 7:41 time that I saw on youtube, but I couldn't even get sub 8 when i reached depth 100.

If what you say about simply not struggling with sodam whatsoever is true, then this is plainly false. Seriously, give yourself a pat on the back. You deserve it. IIRC, ~7-8m times are some of the fastest d100 clears (at least that I've been able to find), and you don't get that kind of performance from basic class competence alone, even if sodam is one of the easier bosses.

Also one thing that sticks out. Regardless of how hard it really was, it was memorable content. Which we desperately need. I hope the def quests arent EQs and we can just run that shit til the cows come home, and hopefully they have a good loop.

@Miraglyth said in Where the content sega?:

@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

The problem in PSO2 was that everything was piss easy. Like EVERYTHING. There wasn't 1 thing that was actually difficult in the game even on the harder modes.

Twisted With Hatred says hi. And if you think that was "[snip] easy" you're going to have to explain to the class why its clear rate across the ships was so low.


@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

Time attack is also nice esp if it has rankings with sg rewards or whatever. Basically adds a competitve scene to the game

Yeah that'll be great for the same 20 tryhard whales that rank well every week and essentially pointless for the rest of us.


These are pretty much the sort of things I was referring to when saying NGS has too little content period to start considering content that would be enjoyed by a tiny minority as the next addition. If the next major content update only had stuff that most people couldn't even do, Sega may as well just explicitly write "We want you to stop playing the game" directly into the update notes.

Twisted def was easy even if you played on one of the weaker classes. I'm not trying to be rude or anything but I think NA MMO players are just bad in general. Whether this is because people have no desire to get better or the fact that they spend more time doing other things not combat related. I don't consider myself an amazing top player but somehow I'm in the top 1%? It doesn't make much sense to me. That fight wasn't hard. The thing with PSO2 fights is once you get the timing down for the boss attacks you can pretty much take 0 damage.

I have been challenged before but that challenge hasn't come from PSO2. It's come from other games like FF14 or Aion where the pve actually has difficulty.

I mean anyone can top the ranks for competitive content if you work at it... The only thing they need to address with stuff like that are the cheaters.

Uh, idk what you guys are going on, but Twisted was just a gear check after fighting it out with Dudu/Monica and knowing how to do the voodoo stuff that was PSO2 affixing.

Then you go in, fight it and get booted because someone slipped near the end. Or not, of course. But isn't that every other fight? Is it hard or easy to perform a "dance" without tripping? Most of us will consider that being "pretty damn hard".

Twisted wasn't what I would consider fun content to praise. Divide, Endless, those are the ones. Twisted might be "memorable" to the ones that beat it, but a pretty niche fun at that.

Perhaps if we couldn't so blatantly overpower most of the stuff it wouldn't be so much of a "this is easy as pie" contrasted with "this devil maid will kick your face in with one hit". I still thank Etoile coming out cause it leveled for most that "well, now EVERYTHING kills you" that Ultra Hard started with. And now we got here as endgame content, after Luster "I am gonna Dante your photons" being the last PSO2 class, bringing the glass cannon mindset back those "what if it was purple" reskins one/two hitting everyone, cause that's... "challenging".

Still, the Story Mode fight vs Nex Aelio was, in my opinion, fine enough for a start. Credit where it is due.

TL;DR: I talk about things everyone already knows, a lot

@Zenny said in Where the content sega?:

Twisted def was easy even if you played on one of the weaker classes...

Sodam as a boss is very easy but the difficulty from Twisted is pretty much entirely from the restrictions once you've learnt the new phase. Even though Sodam is very easy to dodge, it is also very easy for 4 people to make 2 mistakes within the (projected) clear time. That condition alone probably accounts for a large chunk of the low clear rate as the near perfection that it is requesting requires either having already grinded your mind out on sodam for hours and/or having an above average learning curve - at which point, of course it would be easy, but is the difficulty of something determined by how much trouble the people who can do it have, or how much trouble that everyone does? Also, it pretty much requires you have 3 friends just like you. I wish I had friends...

It obviously doesn't help that the average player's skill in pso2 isn't very high, but I imagine that at the absolute worst this would still be considered at least a "hard" on a scale from "autopilot" to "impossible" in other communities.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything... I don't consider myself an amazing top player but somehow I'm in the top 1%?

(gonna quickly address the 1% thing first because the rest kinda got out of hand and there's not any good way to bring it in - the game already has a not very fantastic amount of people even attempting these quests, much less actually clearing them. Obviously the number was just a guess at how many people could just walk through the hardest content without even being challenged at all, although now with the context that Flowen practically just walked into at worst a mid-tier time attack clear with little effort I would say that pretty easily puts him in 1% of the playerbase for sure)

I think it's more relevant to talk about the design of pso2 than it is to make generalizations (no matter their accuracy) of the NA community (the JP community has very similar performance, and was also the reason the game is the way it is). Looking at pso2, it is not at all surprising that most players simply aren't skilled - the game never demanded it, and when it did, almost everyone complained and it got nerfed. The only times this did not happen were in side content that were only weakly incentivized to be cleared - so people either just didn't do it or tried a few times, got stomped, and quit. Even nearing the end with solo sodam and twisted, all the rewards were still just obtainable otherwise or buyable from people who could actually do it.

Pso2 just does not have a difficulty curve. Nearly everything in the game is very easy, and the challenge content is extremely difficult in comparison with pretty much nothing inbetween. In this context, it is not very surprising that a majority of players are bad at the game - Oh, you died 10 times in the final boss raid? Nah, it's fine, you still clear and get full rewards - people were simply never forced to really even bother to get better. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's fine to have a casual game, but that means that players who come in wanting to play seriously and get better get kinda left behind.

There are a few things that could have served as a midpoint in a difficulty curve for pso2 - divide, and solo masq + sodam. Unfortunately, these also fall to the same problem that side content does. Divide got it especially bad, only requiring you play low tiers to get most of the rewards and pretty much all of the rewards getting stuffed into non-divide quests that aren't nearly as difficult. The solo quests could do a good job in being the curve, but they fall into the issue of the curve they provide being horrible. You are not nearly going to have to clear masq 998 times before you could reasonably take on depth 999 (not to mention the sheer amount of time that would take to even get access to such a challenge), and while sodam requires significantly less time and effort, it faces the problem of being both time-gated and still taking a lot of raw playtime to even unlock the real challenge at the end. In addition, these depth systems are just not good at serving as the thing that is going to make the entire playerbase get better - that can only really be done through naturally making content more difficult over time (instead of just scaling it up to the current power level players have(also depths are seriously exhausting and at least in my opinion even more demoralizing than just getting slapped with the full challenge immediately)).

In contrast, I'd say that it seems like NGS is showing signs of promise that we are going to get an actual difficulty curve. Limited healing ability (kinda - current content just supplies you more restas, but i'd imagine that is gonna slow or stop at some point), halved UQ timers, and the required story actually forcing a challenge (instead of a faceroll) onto players are good signs, and now we're just waiting to see if they are going to continue with this or if this is just going to be the new standard for 8 years. I was of the opinion before that Nex Aelio was maybe too harsh of a requirement to be locking away content, but thinking about it a while after I cleared it and especially after typing out this post I've decided to reverse that opinion - I think Nex's presence in the story is actually fine (if not warranted), and maybe could have even been a little harder.

@Aumires said in Where the content sega?:

Uh, idk what you guys are going on, but Twisted was just a gear check after fighting it out with Dudu/Monica and knowing how to do the voodoo stuff that was PSO2 affixing.

Pretty much this.

This had nothing to do with "getting better" or "the boss was just so damn hard" it was plain simply:" i dont wanna frustrate myself with affixing and farming for that one single boss." Its just a race against time where you need to kill him asap nothing more. Without the time limit you wouldnt even need better gear at all.

@LusterMain said in Where the content sega?:

[...] people were simply never forced to really even bother to get better.

To quote Ghostcrawler from 2013: "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite."

People naturally improve at games as they play, it's a natural consequence of pattern repetition. This learning process however is individual. Some people learn faster than others, some people plateau earlier than others. However, if the difficulty was static, content would just keep getting easier for people until they plateau. Difficulty curves exist to counteract that and keep the engagement level roughly the same.

But the difficulty curve has to be programmed and thus won't be individual. So you have to make a choice for whom to design the difficulty curve - too easy and people will get bored, too hard and people will get frustrated and no matter where you put it, you are bound to have some of both. Moreover, your difficulty curve will have to plateau just like the learning curve does, leaving people who have higher plateaus wanting. It's a pretty big problem in MMO design that single player games have long since solved far more elegantly by simply creating a lot of different difficulty options for the same content. And they don't have to reward players differently either, something that would likely spark outrage in MMOs.

That said: I'd always err on the side of making things too easy rather than too hard, because it's a trifle to increase the difficulty for yourself via handicapping, whereas reducing the difficulty for yourself is far less trivial (unless cheese strats are available).

Mind you, that's for mandatory content. You have more leeway in, as you put it, weakly incentivized side content, precisely because people can choose not to pursue it if they don't feel adequately engaged by it, either because of boredom or frustration. It's certainly a lot better than to try and herd people into and then try to compensate them with rewards. As such, I'm quite happy that's the way they did it before.

in now days "mmo" people do not improve at games as they play at all as all of them lets you be parasitic basically. others are forced to except you even when you contribute nothing. pso2 and ff14 are the most bad at this. how often you will get people in a party that dont know what to do and don't give a fuck and will call you a no lifer for carrying them. then if you don't you are toxic and they report you. then they cry out and the devs make things more and more easy.

So either the game is supposed to be made beyond easy, or leech proof?

I mean I wouldn’t mind a casual section of the game that isn’t all tight knit raid mode, because the Gigantix showed wat was waiting under the surface if ppl had to be strategic about stuff.

Worried about boss stunning mechanics will cause more elitism when the desert comes out. My only hope is it doesn’t end up like FF13 that requires you to stun a boss to do any actual damage. 🤞

@Pariah-Chan good way will be to "force" some mid core content on the players by the mid point of leveling , in story as well. so they need to clear to move on. ,make it solo as well. this was people will need to get ok at the game or leave.