Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

@Aperture-Mage said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

If I am Main Techtar, Sub Force but am using a Rod. Are my techniques going to not get that 10% bonus? Because I usually main a Force but with Force seeming to be the better pick all around for a Subclass, and using Techtar with a Force Subclass seems to give me what I want

I'm not familiar with NGS techniques but as long as they still scale off your weapon's power stat, that's correct and thank you for an example that explains why that bonus is important for class identity.

I'd rather them remove that annoying sweet spot system on rifles and wired lances, and then give rifles a decent PA for single target as tbh the ones they have atm are all crap. That one that penetrates is useless due to hard diminising returns for hitting the even more than once or twice. I'd also like the items to have a redo, because really a +40 4* in NGS should have more than a measlty 20 ish higher attack than a 1* at +40. I switched from a +40 primm rifle to a +30 4*, and barely notice any difference in my damage output.

@Scyris

Idk I think the sweet spot system makes sense considering the game heavily pushes positioning for pretty much everything. Also I think the point of higher rarity is to have more affix slots in the end when max grinded. But I can't confirm that myself atm.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Of course, the "just get better" argument. The solution to being unable to WL WA into the Bujin hemisphere of death is to be inside it and parrying before it gets to that point. Right.

I mean, thats a valid arguement for how it still helps melees.

Except it's not because that would require omniscience.

This is a game where we fight multiple enemies in groups. It would be entirely possible for you to finish off other enemies and then for the only one to remain to be a Bujin that's just starting its hemisphere attack, and literally the only way to do anything about that if you only have melee weapons would be to go back in time and switch the enemy you're fighting to the Bujin so you have time to get in range for a parry before the attack starts. I think the only Hunter attack that could hit inside that is the partisan throw backloaded at the end of one of its PAs, and that's going to do way less damage than a multi-weapon rod or rifle even without a 10% bonus.

why the hell are you arguing with me agreeing with you here? what.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

Now hear me out...maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case

Perhaps they should give them a 10% bonus to the damage of their weapons or something.

I'm being flippant here to make a point: That 10% bonus is the buff. They already did what you're suggesting, and you didn't like it.

Maybe you should actually look back at what I've been saying if you really think this is the case. That 10% bonus is the "buff" that limits class variety and class viability. It's just a Band-Aid to address Techter being op and Hunter's tree being "too weak" in your eyes. All it does is "fix" 2 classes while lowering viability of multi-weapons across the board. I am pretty sure the only reason you are against this is that you main hunter and don't want hunter being bad.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I'd like to point out you've been evangelising over 10% main class bonuses in spite of that. Moreover you don't need a ton of personal experience to see that unless Resurgir overtakes all other 4★ weapon families from enhancement and the level 3 potential, multi-weaponing two main-class weapons already has a damage loss from simply using a worse weapon, and that loss is even felt by the main weapon! Personally I like the variety that drives.

Except that would require omniscience

I don't argue in ignorance. If I feel I lack knowledge in something I am not going to argue about it. I'd argue that having a weapon with Fixa Attack on it matters more than weapon series and I've already heard some people make the point that the Resurgir Series has the best potential out of the 4 star weapon series. The weapon system is too new to form any valid opinions on it.

508d0009-bfd8-4866-8635-ecb72c15cd87-image.png

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Of course, the "just get better" argument. The solution to being unable to WL WA into the Bujin hemisphere of death is to be inside it and parrying before it gets to that point. Right.

I mean, thats a valid arguement for how it still helps melees.

Except it's not because that would require omniscience.

why the hell are you arguing with me agreeing with you here? what.

Oh right, you meant multi-weapons help melees. I thought you meant "just get better" helps melees. Misunderstanding!


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

Now hear me out...maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case

Perhaps they should give them a 10% bonus to the damage of their weapons or something.

I'm being flippant here to make a point: That 10% bonus is the buff. They already did what you're suggesting, and you didn't like it.

Maybe you should actually look back at what I've been saying if you really think this is the case. That 10% bonus is the "buff" that limits class variety and class viability.

What I've been saying this entire time is, it's literally impossible to not be a band-aid without causing you to complain. You're saying replace the 10% bonus with a Hunter main-class only skill that gives Hunter weapons a 10% bonus. Guess what? If you're not Hunter main, you still won't get that skill, ergo Hunter weapons are still weaker as a multi-weapon used by another class. It's exactly the same thing.

When pressed on how to "buff the class", you proposed removing exclusivity on two skills in exchange for giving it exclusivity on a family of skills that not only would not save Hunter from being made second-best at using two of its own weapons but would also take partisans out from being accessible by other classes as that family contains two thirds of the partisan skills.

That's not a buff. It's a nerf. Even if it was a buff, it wouldn't be worth losing the 10% main class bonus. The only acceptable buff would be adding a bonus specifically to Hunter weapons that is only accessible as a main class, and that would by definition cause you to complain because other classes wouldn't have access to it and therefore Hunter weapons on multi-weapons wouldn't be as usable to other classes.

I don't know why this needs to be said yet again. What we want is fundamentally incompatible. You specifically want access to the weapons of other classes with every damage and usability bonus that is available to those other classes - hence this topic complaining about the 10% bonus - and I don't want that because the moment that happens, Techter's Shifta becomes the differentiator and makes them second-rate.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

It's just a Band-Aid to address Techter being op and Hunter's tree being "too weak" in your eyes. All it does is "fix" 2 classes while lowering viability of multi-weapons across the board. I am pretty sure the only reason you are against this is that you main hunter and don't want hunter being bad.

No, I'm against it because I like the idea of a class system that isn't a complete farce. Classes should be innately better at using their own weapons. Shifta is fine. It just shouldn't be an offensive differentiator because the other parts of class damage output have been comically homogenised.

Hunter is the easiest class to discuss on this front because between Overload, Blight Rounds and Chain Trigger, 5 of the 12 weapon types are also functionally more than 10% less usable as a subclass and honestly it strikes me as weirdly inconsistent that you're not complaining about that more than a 10% passive.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Moreover you don't need a ton of personal experience to see that unless Resurgir overtakes all other 4★ weapon families from enhancement and the level 3 potential, multi-weaponing two main-class weapons already has a damage loss from simply using a worse weapon

Except that would require omniscience

I don't argue in ignorance. If I feel I lack knowledge in something I am not going to argue about it.

You didn't know if there's something about the weapon system that makes up for the 10% bonus. For instance, as you don't know about the weapons, how could you have been sure there wasn't a weapon family that has the 10% bonus even when it's not used as a main class? In spite of that, you posted this topic when we'd had access to the game for all of 53 hours.

It's not omniscience to wait until you know more about the groupings, full stats and any special characteristics of various 4★ weapon families. It's just a few days of patience.

They saw an OP meta and fixed it before everyone just mindlessly followed it. Seems to me they're trying to keep people playing various classes instead of just 1.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

Now hear me out...maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case

Perhaps they should give them a 10% bonus to the damage of their weapons or something.

I'm being flippant here to make a point: That 10% bonus is the buff. They already did what you're suggesting, and you didn't like it.

Maybe you should actually look back at what I've been saying if you really think this is the case. That 10% bonus is the "buff" that limits class variety and class viability.

What I've been saying this entire time is, it's literally impossible to not be a band-aid without causing you to complain. You're saying replace the 10% bonus with a Hunter main-class only skill that gives Hunter weapons a 10% bonus. Guess what? If you're not Hunter main, you still won't get that skill, ergo Hunter weapons are still weaker as a multi-weapon used by another class. It's exactly the same thing.

When pressed on how to "buff the class", you proposed removing exclusivity on two skills in exchange for giving it exclusivity on a family of skills that not only would not save Hunter from being made second-best at using two of its own weapons but would also take partisans out from being accessible by other classes as that family contains two thirds of the partisan skills.

I never said that they should just give flat % buffs to make classes viable, I've been arguing against that the entire time. What I was arguing for was making the main classes better at using the respective weapons through stuff that the class itself has access to instead of just giving flat % buffs and calling it a day.

I want there to be an actual difference in play when you are using a sword with hunter as your main class or hunter as your sub class. There are better ways to nerf sub weapons on classes that don't nerf the system as a whole.

Lets just use hunter sword for an example again. 54373588-278b-45d2-b9cf-609922e0bc66-image.png

If these 4 skills were main class only, then even if other classes are using sword THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT AS WELL AS HUNTER So even if you are using a sword multiweapon on a different class YOU CANNOT PLAY THE SWORD LIKE HOW ITS PLAYED AS ON HUNTER

The downsides of multiweapon should be loss of utility of the weapons that the main class has access to. So even if you are taking a sub class to use its weapon, YOU STILL HAVE TO PLAY IT DIFFERENTLY THAN USING IT AS A MAIN CLASS BECAUSE YOU LACK THE TOOLS TO USE IT LIKE THE MAIN CLASS. That should be the draw back of using a sub weapon, not a % damage loss.

This 10% buff is just a bandaid to cover weak class identity and stifles class diversity at the end of the day.

OPINION ALERT! I agree. I won't elaborate further.

@hee-ho said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

OPINION ALERT! I agree. I won't elaborate further.

This.

I won't elaborate further.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

The downsides of multiweapon should be loss of utility of the weapons that the main class has access to.

I disagree, buildcraft should ideally be as free as possible. Giving every class an exclusive "signature move / skill" (e.g. Chain Trigger for Gunner which btw. shouldn't be restricted to TMGs) is one thing but there shouldn't be any more profound restrictions to the basic things the class has to offer.

I will go slightly offtopic and say that I'm worried about long term viability of multiweapons.

We already have issues with the fact that only a single 4* weapon series has representation for all weapons.

This sounds really limiting for classes that preffer to block instead of step counter coughforcecough, heavily screwing their abilities to multiweapon.

And this might change every time they release a new weapon series that has some significant advantage over the dualweapon you're currently using.

Like, let's say that with defence quests they introduce a 5* weapon series(es) that are split differently between weapon types, and deal like 15-20% damage more than the 4* weapons.

In many cases this might require ditching you current subclass or even respecing, because your current skill tree was extremely focused on your current combinations.


Also, unrelated to if the 10% main class weapon thing should be here, but; to some people at the beginning of the thread that said that "It's just 10% more damage, it's a buff and not nerf", let me tell you a story, about an ancient and forgotten mmo, what was it's name, ah yes, world of warcraft.

Back in the world of warcraft beta there was well hated mechanic called unreseted experience debuff, which would lower your exp gained if you didn't log out every so often. Before the release the mechanic was stripped and replaced with reseted experience bonus that everyone loved. A great happy end, where people got better exp, right?
Except that no, nothing changed except for the name. The numbers stayed exactly the same, it's just that they called the normal exp "bonus" and penalty exp rate "normal".

We have similar issue with pso2 drop rates, where despite running goddamn 400% rdr boost 24/7 the drop rates are still extremely low. And that's because we're not running any droprate buff, because all droprates are designed with the fact that everyone runs 400% rdr 24/7 the 400% rdr is "the norm"

So, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if something is 10% more or 10% less. All that matters is what the designers expected to be the norm.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I never said that they should just give flat % buffs to make classes viable

No, what you said is "maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case".

Buff the class so they aren't second-best at using their own weapons.

Buff the combination of every class with their own weapons.

You're right that to satisfy your own wording, this doesn't have to be a direct damage multiplier. But my point is any other possibility would either be effective enough to both keep each class the best at using their own weapons and subsequently cause you to complain because whatever it is would make those weapons worse when used by other classes, or ineffective enough that your dream of multi-weapon liberty would be realised at the cost of all the Hunter mains being recommended to switch to Techter/Hunter because it's simply better for solo damage output.

There is no in-between. There is no replacement that can accomplish both. And that's what I've been consistently trying to explain to you this entire topic: The two are mutually exclusive, as evidenced by the fact that 5 pages in and despite repeated challenges to describe this magic buff you've regularly alluded to, you still haven't managed to do so and often haven't even tried.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

If these 4 skills were main class only, then even if other classes are using sword THEY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE IT AS WELL AS HUNTER

And by the logic of "just makes multiweapons worse" as presented by the topic's title, you would complain about that because a multi-weapon sword used by another class wouldn't be able to use those skills and would therefore lose out on the damage output they provide no different to a class weapon attack bonus.

"as content gets harder people will always float to what is optimal". Being unable to skip to rotate the (far stronger) fourth or fifth normal more quickly, or counter with PAs at all, would not be optimal as per your own implications. Yet again, you're not fixing the problem you're presenting.


@Kamil118 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

to some people at the beginning of the thread that said that "It's just 10% more damage, it's a buff and not nerf" [snip] it doesn't matter if something is 10% more or 10% less. All that matters is what the designers expected to be the norm.

I completely agree with the logic of this point. Ultimately there's still a difference; it's the same with how the NGS player shops were reworked so the tax is a reduction to the sale price, not an addition to it. Functionally the buyer still pays more than the seller gets with the rest being a global meseta sink. And when it comes to creating endgame-difficulty content later on Sega will likely balance it with the expectation the 10% buff is present, sure.

My comment on the matter shows my concern is only with the exaggerative use of language in posts preceding that: "you will simply do 10% less damage", "a 10% damage nerf" and so on. 100% is not 90% of 110%. It's far closer to 91% of it, so it'd be more accurate to call it a 9% or a 9.1% damage nerf. It's a small difference but doesn't overstate the behaviour that's being called a problem.


What's more important is the disagreement that it is a problem that a few people have expressed throughout the topic. A flat class weapon attack bonus (CWAB?) is simple, sure, but that doesn't mean it's a lazy way to accomplish the game's clear vision that weapons provided by a subclass still have almost complete access to their supporting skills (with the only exceptions being four active skills that are more about the class than their weapons) without making some classes better at using other classes' weapons.

Anything more complex would risk exploits. Just look at how despite the tiny amount of time players had with both the betas and the release when this topic was posted, we still discovered the exploit of using inappropriate augments and multi-weapons to boost rod damage with Might (obsoleting dual augments) and a crapton of players were planning to use Techter as a fake main. A complex replacement for CWAB could lead to similar issues and doesn't improve the purpose of CWAB which does exactly what it's meant to without limiting access to subclass weapon skills. Simple is good sometimes.

I agree with Rorana as well.

At current state, NGS already feels like an unfinished game, and we are lacking tons of contents compared to base PSO2. Currently I can playing Fo/Ra in NGS, but it still feels less complete than playing Ph in base PSO2.

They made a new multi-weapon system, but only to discourage players from using it by making them weaker, then what's the point?

The only reason people main techer and cheese the system is that, the new skill tree system sucks so bad. Most good skills are main class only, and subclass does literally nothing, from the skill-tree perspective.

If I play techer sub, only benefit I could get is actually slightly faster PB generation, and that's it.

If I play ranger sub, all I got was alignment resistance.

That is just a bad design in general.

@Cakewalk said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I agree with Rorana as well.

At current state, NGS already feels like an unfinished game, and we are lacking tons of contents compared to base PSO2. Currently I can playing Fo/Ra in NGS, but it still feels less complete than playing Ph in base PSO2.

They made a new multi-weapon system, but only to discourage players from using it by making them weaker, then what's the point?

The only reason people main techer and cheese the system is that, the new skill tree system sucks so bad. Most good skills are main class only, and subclass does literally nothing, from the skill-tree perspective.

If I play techer sub, only benefit I could get is actually slightly faster PB generation, and that's it.

If I play ranger sub, all I got was alignment resistance.

That is just a bad design in general.

This, with a good design the 10% wont be needed and those issues will be fixed while still keeping every class viable to main.

How dull. Just remove sub classing and be done with it.