Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

You do realise that the main class is still...HALF of the class...not saying "I just wanna play the sub class", more of "I want the sub class weapons to not be pointless for when content gets harder"

The main class is meant to be more than half the class. It's meant to be the main class. The clue is in the name.

People have given examples of why subclass multi-weapons could remain useful, from faster PP regeneration to being able to reach. Speeding up the rotations of your main weapon or adding chip damage which would otherwise be zero is useful. We saw situational uses like that back in PSO2, such as using all-class bows to snipe Luther and cancel his time stop which was particularly invaluable in Endless Quests. Some players have been bemoaning the lack of the all-class Helen Bathina for over a year.

There is and will be secondary use for multi-weapons from the subclass. Secondary use. They're not meant to be your primary weapons and the main source of your damage. If you want them to be, switch to the main class that uses that weapon already.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Did you read where I said you need to use the weapons in the right situation? Again sub classes are meant to be for extra skills and extra tools, not to freely use your sub class weapons whenever you want, but has extra tools in the right situation.

How are you going to use a talis weapon action hasn’t a ranger/gunner? Talis is tied to force and techter?

Weapon actions are tied to the weapon, not the class. You don't need to be a ranger/force or ranger/te to use a multiweapon thats a rifle talis. You just wont be able to use any techs or PAs. You can get around the need for extra tools by just playing better.

Also I'd be hard pressed to find something more useful than a turret that regens PP during PA animations + gunner's PP passives

Need to hit stuff at range as a melee? why not use just wired lance weapon action instead for a gap closer cause you do more damage that way, and get better at sticking at targets. Too dangerous to do damage in melee? just get better at dodging attacks for the free counter damage.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

You do realise that the main class is still...HALF of the class...not saying "I just wanna play the sub class", more of "I want the sub class weapons to not be pointless for when content gets harder"

The main class is meant to be more than half the class. It's meant to be the main class. The clue is in the name.

People have given examples of why subclass multi-weapons could remain useful, from faster PP regeneration to being able to reach. Speeding up the rotations of your main weapon or adding chip damage which would otherwise be zero is useful. We saw situational uses like that back in PSO2, such as using all-class bows to snipe Luther and cancel his time stop which was particularly invaluable in Endless Quests. Some players have been bemoaning the lack of the all-class Helen Bathina for over a year.

There is and will be secondary use for multi-weapons from the subclass. Secondary use. They're not meant to be your primary weapons and the main source of your damage. If you want them to be, switch to the main class that uses that weapon already.

PAs don't have cooldowns and in PSO2 the instances where needing to use "situational PAs" were so rare that it would only come up maybe in 2 or 3 quests in the entire game. Again, PAs do not have cooldown and so you would just be slowing down your main weapon rotation with needless clutter cause why use the situational PAs when you could be using more damaging ones in the same time frame. Also what about ranged classes? they can already hit things at range and don't need to be in melee. When will using less damaging PAs ever be useful? you can already hit stuff at range.

At the end of the day it would boil down to "ok but why?" for most situations cause you can just play in a way where you never need to use these PAs if you are trying for max damage. Want to sub force or Te for status? ok but all enemies in the game at thee moment have multiple weak points that don't need status. UQs are multiplayer, why spend your time "helping" someone else can do the same thing better. The only time the current system works is when people aren't trying to play optimally.

For example, if im doing the North Aelios UQ and I'm playing RaFo and there is another Force or Te there, in what situation is it ever worth casting techs to help with status over just plain ol shooting. There isn't one, the only reason I would is to feel like I am helping. I don't think there would ever be a situation that would cause me to stop using rifle PAs because they are just better than any other option in every situation.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Did you read where I said you need to use the weapons in the right situation? Again sub classes are meant to be for extra skills and extra tools, not to freely use your sub class weapons whenever you want, but has extra tools in the right situation.

How are you going to use a talis weapon action hasn’t a ranger/gunner? Talis is tied to force and techter?

Weapon actions are tied to the weapon, not the class. You don't need to be a ranger/force or ranger/te to use a multiweapon thats a rifle talis. You just wont be able to use any techs or PAs. You can get around the need for extra tools by just playing better.

Need to hit stuff at range as a melee? why not use just wired lance weapon action instead for a gap closer cause you do more damage that way, and get better at sticking at targets. Too dangerous to do damage in melee? just get better at dodging attacks for the free counter damage.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

You do realise that the main class is still...HALF of the class...not saying "I just wanna play the sub class", more of "I want the sub class weapons to not be pointless for when content gets harder"

The main class is meant to be more than half the class. It's meant to be the main class. The clue is in the name.

People have given examples of why subclass multi-weapons could remain useful, from faster PP regeneration to being able to reach. Speeding up the rotations of your main weapon or adding chip damage which would otherwise be zero is useful. We saw situational uses like that back in PSO2, such as using all-class bows to snipe Luther and cancel his time stop which was particularly invaluable in Endless Quests. Some players have been bemoaning the lack of the all-class Helen Bathina for over a year.

There is and will be secondary use for multi-weapons from the subclass. Secondary use. They're not meant to be your primary weapons and the main source of your damage. If you want them to be, switch to the main class that uses that weapon already.

PAs don't have cooldowns and in PSO2 the instances where needing to use "situational PAs" were so rare that it would only come up maybe in 2 or 3 quests in the entire game. Again, PAs do not have cooldown and so you would just be slowing down your main weapon rotation with needless clutter cause why use the situational PAs when you could be using more damaging ones in the same time frame. Also what about ranged classes? they can already hit things at range and don't need to be in melee. When will using less damaging PAs ever be useful? you can already hit stuff at range.

At the end of the day it would boil down to "ok but why?" for most situations cause you can just play in a way where you never need to use these PAs if you are trying for max damage. Want to sub force or Te for status? ok but all enemies in the game at thee moment have multiple weak points that don't need status. UQs are multiplayer, why spend your time "helping" someone else can do the same thing better. The only time the current system works is when people aren't trying to play optimally.

For example, if im doing the North Aelios UQ and I'm playing RaFo and there is another Force or Te there, in what situation is it ever worth casting techs to help with status over just plain ol shooting. There isn't one, the only reason I would is to feel like I am helping. I don't think there would ever be a situation that would cause me to stop using rifle PAs because they are just better than any other option in every situation.

I didn’t know that about the weapon action, not sure how useful that would actually be, not like the tails wa does a lot of damage, I use it cause I’m using the tails already, not sure I would go to the effort just to get it though. Erm what do you mean just play better instead of making use of all your available tools??? Making using of all your available tools is playing better, cause you make sure you are using the most optimal attack at all times. I have no idea if you’ve ever done endless but that is something you learn very quickly, the quickest way to do anything is to use the best tool for the job.

Theirs going to be times when bosses and mobs are simply going to be out of range for melee, has nothing to do with playing better, or using a gap closer, it’s literally going to be a phase the enemy will go through, so having a range attack means you’re not just sitting their while an enemy is doing this.

Situational PAs literally means that, they are best used in that situation, that’s why you use them in that situation. Has for ‘helping out’ a force or techter, theirs going to be times when inflicting status alimentary are going to be very useful for skipping certain attacks and animations. We did it often in pso2, and where able to save a bunch of time by doing it, the more people you have inflicting status effects the faster you can get it to stick, and the faster you can get back to dps. I’ll even give you one example of this from divide quests. The Luther’s minion boss, the one that has the four towers come up when it hits half hp. We would intentionally not use light techs till we took away about third of its health, then everyone who had access to light techs would smash it status effect has close has possible to 50% hp, which means it wouldn’t summon the towers till after it came out of the status and if you were good you could kill it before that happened, and save a bunch of time by not having to deal with the towers.

I’m getting bored of this now, it’s clear no matter how many people give you examples and point out issues with your arguments, your not going to change your mind. In this entire thread only one other person has agreed with you, so I’m done spending my time here.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Need to hit stuff at range as a melee? why not use just wired lance weapon action instead for a gap closer

Fun fact, the wired lance weapon action has a limited range that is shorter than that of rifles, rods and techniques. The more you know!


@Rorana said in [Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse

Too dangerous to do damage in melee? just get better at dodging attacks for the free counter damage.

Of course, the "just get better" argument. The solution to being unable to WL WA into the Bujin hemisphere of death is to be inside it and parrying before it gets to that point. Right.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

The main class is meant to be more than half the class. It's meant to be the main class. The clue is in the name. [snip] There is and will be secondary use for multi-weapons from the subclass. Secondary use. They're not meant to be your primary weapons and the main source of your damage. If you want them to be, switch to the main class that uses that weapon already.

PAs don't have cooldowns [snip] Again, PAs do not have cooldown

What you're doing here is complaining about something irrelevant to the point I'd made, and which I don't really care about. Sorry. To me it's important the classes have enough of an identity that they aren't second-best at using their own weapons. You disagree and you think Hunters shouldn't be the best at swinging swords, and while you're entitled to your view on that I think it'd be better to just be honest about saying so instead of bringing up tangential points.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

For example, if im doing the North Aelios UQ and I'm playing RaFo and there is another Force or Te there, in what situation is it ever worth casting techs to help with status over just plain ol shooting.

Just how many hypotheticals do you need? This is a class-based game, and it's been a class-based series since Online. Not every class can do everything the best all the time, and sometimes there'll be overlap where you don't need a full party of Resta nurses in Universe or a full party of Rangers replacing each others' weak bullets in PSO2. Frankly the accessibility of multi-weapons to do non-main actions even without all of the damage boosts is an improvement over the pure redundancy we've had before.


By the way I notice you never replied to my point about Resurgir weapons already requiring you to use 4★ weapons that aren't the strongest if you wanted to multi two main class weapons.

And frankly I'm wondering what you want to set up anyway. You've claimed it's not to do with Techter, but you seem to have some kind of busted meta in mind that you're arguing so much for this.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I didn’t know that about the weapon action, not sure how useful that would actually be, not like the tails wa does a lot of damage, I use it cause I’m using the tails already, not sure I would go to the effort just to get it though. Erm what do you mean just play better instead of making use of all your available tools??? Making using of all your available tools is playing better, cause you make sure you are using the most optimal attack at all times. I have no idea if you’ve ever done endless but that is something you learn very quickly, the quickest way to do anything is to use the best tool for the job.

Luster had a ton of tools to deal with situations, you know what ended up being the best way to beat floor 100 of sodam in base? Only step guarding to refill focus and then using triple enhanced combo flechette. None of the other content in the game was hard enough to need that much min-maxing.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Theirs going to be times when bosses and mobs are simply going to be out of range for melee, has nothing to do with playing better, or using a gap closer, it’s literally going to be a phase the enemy will go through, so having a range attack means you’re not just sitting their while an enemy is doing this.

Situational PAs literally means that, they are best used in that situation, that’s why you use them in that situation. Has for ‘helping out’ a force or techter, theirs going to be times when inflicting status alimentary are going to be very useful for skipping certain attacks and animations. We did it often in pso2, and where able to save a bunch of time by doing it, the more people you have inflicting status effects the faster you can get it to stick, and the faster you can get back to dps. I’ll even give you one example of this from divide quests. The Luther’s minion boss, the one that has the four towers come up when it hits half hp. We would intentionally not use light techs till we took away about third of its health, then everyone who had access to light techs would smash it status effect has close has possible to 50% hp, which means it wouldn’t summon the towers till after it came out of the status and if you were good you could kill it before that happened, and save a bunch of time by not having to deal with the towers.

You should be looking for their episode 6 design philosophy not their episode 2...cause you know it changes over time. In episode 6 there was rarely ever times where bosses could ONLY BE HIT BY RANGED. Most of the useful stuff for situational PAs was for Endless quest, which tbh was a shitty gimmick.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I’m getting bored of this now, it’s clear no matter how many people give you examples and point out issues with your arguments, your not going to change your mind. In this entire thread only one other person has agreed with you, so I’m done spending my time here.

I don't think you know how sample sizes work. I could link the reddit post that i got the picture from and you guys would be in the minority. Forums are always a vocal minority. Amount of people agreeing/disagreeing doesn't matter at the end of the day. I haven't changed my mind because most of the examples I've seen have sucked and basically boils down to. "TECHTER OP, YOU ARE A FAKE TECHTER MAIN, SITUATIONAL SKILLS CAN BE USEFUL IN SITUATIONS!"


Only argument you and miraglyth made was that multi weapon system is good for melee classes as is! if you change anything TE will be op!

wow so the current system is good on 2 out of the 6 classes, very cool. Definitely an argument to keep the current system. I've been trying to argue that once content gets hard enough all the usefulness you see in the current system will cease to exist. Kind of like how in base pso2 there was a ton of class variety at first but then as content got harder people found out that most of the class combos just sucked.

My argument is that the current system hurts viability of class combos as a whole by making things too situational. When is the current system useful for Force? When is the current system useful for Gunner? When is the current system useful for Ranger?

If you are melee? Wow just spec ranged so you can hit things at ranged so cool! ok well is there anything else that is situationally useful?

If you are ranged? Just spec force to help with status. Well that's situationally useful! ok but are there any other sub class combos that would be situationally useful for classes that can always do damage? I doubt it.

"We need the current system because without it 1 class would be too op", well maybe nerf the class causing the issue instead of nerfing the system as a whole. Maybe if they wanted to system to be this situational THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE ADVERTISED IT AS A MAIN FEATURE OF THE GAME! Isn't not having access to core skills of a weapon enough of a nerf to the weapon? According to you guys, no because TE would be OP.

It's not my fault Hunter sucks and Techter is op but as is the current system is just a crutch to prop up hunter and weaken Te while making everything worse.

Finally, as for the argument about 10% not being a lot, did you play before NGS? Cause everything in base was multiplicative, so if this game follows the same trend, 10% damage is HUGE. All this does is make situational PAs even more situational and certain class combinations just bad. Maybe I'd change my mind if you guys weren't just regurgitating worries about TE being op and how melee is fine with current system. Which is a point I've kept trying to make but I guess I am not being clear enough for you to understand. Saying "I am wrong because its useful for me" is not a good argument for a system that only benefits like 3 classes.

I dont understand this thread to be honest.

Multi Weapon gives your Main Weapon a 10% boost while the Sub weapon stays exactly the same. So in fact you just get stronger.

Sure that Might wont boost Tec weapons anymore and vice versa is a nerf however it was mostly unintentional so Sega just removed something that shouldnt have been there.

So all in all i dont see the problem here. If you wanna play a Techter with a Hunter Weapon then go for a Physical Techter ? If you want a Techter with Force als Sub go for a Talis using Tec Techter ? If you want Techter/Hunter and use Tecs then Affix the Hunter Weapon with Tec affixes. I dont see where the problem is.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

By the way I notice you never replied to my point about Resurgir weapons already requiring you to use 4★ weapons that aren't the strongest if you wanted to multi two main class weapons.

And frankly I'm wondering what you want to set up anyway. You've claimed it's not to do with Techter, but you seem to have some kind of busted meta in mind that you're arguing so much for this.

This was my response.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

I haven't had much chance to play around with multi weapons as other stuff due to how limited the resources for that are and how hard it is to get 4 stars. Not like I can have multiple maxed out 4 stars to compare with. It's just too early in the life span for me to accurately form an opinion on that aspect

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Of course, the "just get better" argument. The solution to being unable to WL WA into the Bujin hemisphere of death is to be inside it and parrying before it gets to that point. Right.

I mean, thats a valid arguement for how it still helps melees. I've only played ranged classes so I wouldn't have thought of this. From the perspective of a ranged player there isn't any situations out of weapon action of stuff that would be helpful when I can freely use better options.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

What you're doing here is complaining about something irrelevant to the point I'd made, and which I don't really care about. Sorry. To me it's important the classes have enough of an identity that they aren't second-best at using their own weapons. You disagree and you think Hunters shouldn't be the best at swinging swords, and while you're entitled to your view on that I think it'd be better to just be honest about saying so instead of bringing up tangential points.

Now hear me out...maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case, or tweak the tree so that's not the case. Pretty sure you can only make a case with this for hunter, cause their skill tree just sucks.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

And frankly I'm wondering what you want to set up anyway. You've claimed it's not to do with Techter, but you seem to have some kind of busted meta in mind that you're arguing so much for this.

In the CBT I had a ton of fun playing TMG/Rifle RaGU. I wanted to dance around mid range using TMG/rifle to stack blight bullet faster and then use rifle when its fully stacked for damage. Not having chain trigger is a pretty big nerf to TMG but an extra 10% just kills the build. I also wanted to play Rifle & Wired lance to dance around WL tipper range and Rifle mid range, but there isn't much point to it anymore. At least Te isnt op anymore 🙄

I'm arguing hard cause all the cool class combos and weapon combos I was excited to play will not be worth playing at all when content gets harder. I am really lazy with gear so I always try to make up for that by doing as much damage as I possibly can with what I have.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I didn’t know that about the weapon action, not sure how useful that would actually be, not like the tails wa does a lot of damage, I use it cause I’m using the tails already, not sure I would go to the effort just to get it though. Erm what do you mean just play better instead of making use of all your available tools??? Making using of all your available tools is playing better, cause you make sure you are using the most optimal attack at all times. I have no idea if you’ve ever done endless but that is something you learn very quickly, the quickest way to do anything is to use the best tool for the job.

Luster had a ton of tools to deal with situations, you know what ended up being the best way to beat floor 100 of sodam in base? Only step guarding to refill focus and then using triple enhanced combo flechette. None of the other content in the game was hard enough to need that much min-maxing.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Theirs going to be times when bosses and mobs are simply going to be out of range for melee, has nothing to do with playing better, or using a gap closer, it’s literally going to be a phase the enemy will go through, so having a range attack means you’re not just sitting their while an enemy is doing this.

Situational PAs literally means that, they are best used in that situation, that’s why you use them in that situation. Has for ‘helping out’ a force or techter, theirs going to be times when inflicting status alimentary are going to be very useful for skipping certain attacks and animations. We did it often in pso2, and where able to save a bunch of time by doing it, the more people you have inflicting status effects the faster you can get it to stick, and the faster you can get back to dps. I’ll even give you one example of this from divide quests. The Luther’s minion boss, the one that has the four towers come up when it hits half hp. We would intentionally not use light techs till we took away about third of its health, then everyone who had access to light techs would smash it status effect has close has possible to 50% hp, which means it wouldn’t summon the towers till after it came out of the status and if you were good you could kill it before that happened, and save a bunch of time by not having to deal with the towers.

You should be looking for their episode 6 design philosophy not their episode 2...cause you know it changes over time. In episode 6 there was rarely ever times where bosses could ONLY BE HIT BY RANGED. Most of the useful stuff for situational PAs was for Endless quest, which tbh was a shitty gimmick.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I’m getting bored of this now, it’s clear no matter how many people give you examples and point out issues with your arguments, your not going to change your mind. In this entire thread only one other person has agreed with you, so I’m done spending my time here.

I don't think you know how sample sizes work. I could link the reddit post that i got the picture from and you guys would be in the minority. Forums are always a vocal minority. Amount of people agreeing/disagreeing doesn't matter at the end of the day. I haven't changed my mind because most of the examples I've seen have sucked and basically boils down to. "TECHTER OP, YOU ARE A FAKE TECHTER MAIN, SITUATIONAL SKILLS CAN BE USEFUL IN SITUATIONS!"


Only argument you and miraglyth made was that multi weapon system is good for melee classes as is! if you change anything TE will be op!

wow so the current system is good on 2 out of the 6 classes, very cool. Definitely an argument to keep the current system. I've been trying to argue that once content gets hard enough all the usefulness you see in the current system will cease to exist. Kind of like how in base pso2 there was a ton of class variety at first but then as content got harder people found out that most of the class combos just sucked.

My argument is that the current system hurts viability of class combos as a whole by making things too situational. When is the current system useful for Force? When is the current system useful for Gunner? When is the current system useful for Ranger?

If you are melee? Wow just spec ranged so you can hit things at ranged so cool! ok well is there anything else that is situationally useful?

If you are ranged? Just spec force to help with status. Well that's situationally useful! ok but are there any other sub class combos that would be situationally useful for classes that can always do damage? I doubt it.

"We need the current system because without it 1 class would be too op", well maybe nerf the class causing the issue instead of nerfing the system as a whole. Maybe if they wanted to system to be this situational THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE ADVERTISED IT AS A MAIN FEATURE OF THE GAME! Isn't not having access to core skills of a weapon enough of a nerf to the weapon? According to you guys, no because TE would be OP.

It's not my fault Hunter sucks and Techter is op but as is the current system is just a crutch to prop up hunter and weaken Te while making everything worse.

Finally, as for the argument about 10% not being a lot, did you play before NGS? Cause everything in base was multiplicative, so if this game follows the same trend, 10% damage is HUGE. All this does is make situational PAs even more situational and certain class combinations just bad. Maybe I'd change my mind if you guys weren't just regurgitating worries about TE being op and how melee is fine with current system. Which is a point I've kept trying to make but I guess I am not being clear enough for you to understand. Saying "I am wrong because its useful for me" is not a good argument for a system that only benefits like 3 classes.

Ok I was done, but after that last post I had to reply. If you think solo Sodam 100 was the hardest content in the game then you didn’t do the hardest content in the game. Technically Sodam is very easy it’s essentially a gear dps check, I can beat depth 100 Justin spamming llgrants and countering. The hardest content in the game is masq 999 and endless, both of them test you in the full range of your class, and make sure you know how to squeeze every last piece of dps out of it.

Anyone that has put any serious time into endless will tell you it’s the most lit game content going, it’s brutual, unforgiving, and pushes you to your very limit, and makes you use every tool available to you. The fact that you think it’s a gimmick means you really didn’t put any time into it at all. I’ll take phantom for example most normal content you can do just fine with 5 techs grants, llgrants, gigrants zero, rababrta and nanarta zero. You don’t need any other weapons or anything, now try taking that into endless and see how far you get, you will be on for quite a shock.

The final UQ we got was a perfect example of where having rng was a huge advantage that being face of the Abyss, theirs a bunch of times in the first and last phases where you simple can not do any damage at all. And if you think that’s never going to happen in ngs, I think the odds of that are going to be very low.

I could say the same thing about your reddit post, at the end of the day only a small portion use online social media. The reason we are going on about techter is cause that was the class you were going on about at the start, and that’s nots the only class, I said earlier that in then cbt force was better has a sub class than a main class, cause their was basically no downside to doing so. Any time a class is better has a sub class than has a main class is poor game design and something needs to be done to rebalance it, thankfully we got a bunch of changes since then.

The current system allows each class to stand has a main class in its own right, and theirs still plenty of combos that will work very well, and if you use your sub class weapons at the right time you will still be additional damage to supplement your main class.

Well take force for an example has you mentioned it you can take hunter sub you get damage reduction, plus an active skill that reduces damage further and negates knockback, which is a super op skill, plus you still have points left over to get one hunter weapon for dps phases when all your ablitites are on cooldown.

Fighter sub gives you 5% extra damage against downed enemies plus increase pp recovery, plus you can use fighter weapons. Knuckles actually do more damage in a dps phase than tails, if you don’t have photon flare going for it.

Gunner gives insane pp recovery which stakes with forces natural pp recovery skills, meaning you basically never run out of pp

Techter gives you upto 20% faster PB charges, plus you can get your tails and barta and lighting skills from this tree, freeing up a bunch of points in your force tree. The only class that doesn’t really do anything for force has a sub class is ranger, so their is still plenty of variation. I could do other classes but I’d be here forever.

This is how they advertise the current multi weapon system

6DCD1AB6-F6A6-4A62-BEE3-D361D2BB5552.jpeg

Has you can see the feature is being able to use two weapons from the same sub pal, and they advertise the weapon action of both weapons with the example they give using your sword pa’s to attack then using your rifle wa to counter for additional damage. No where do they say you can use weapons from both your main and sub class equally, the system works exactly how they advertise it here.

Again we were going on about techter cause that’s the class you were going on about at the beginning of the thread, I’ve mentioned other classes that had issues has well, and not every class combo needs to be viable, in fact if that turned out to be the case you may has well get rid of the class sustem all together, because no class would have its own identity or strength or weakness, that’s why you want different classes in party, so each one can make up for the others weakness or enhance their strengths.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Again we were going on about techter cause that’s the class you were going on about at the beginning of the thread

That's a rather invalid point to make as he was not the one who brought it up.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Ok I was done, but after that last post I had to reply. If you think solo Sodam 100 was the hardest content in the game then you didn’t do the hardest content in the game. Technically Sodam is very easy it’s essentially a gear dps check, I can beat depth 100 Justin spamming llgrants and countering. The hardest content in the game is masq 999 and endless, both of them test you in the full range of your class, and make sure you know how to squeeze every last piece of dps out of it.

Not to get too off topic, but I actually consider Twisted By Hatred the best measure of skill in PSO2 due to it being a 4man extremely difficult quest where class balance is mostly close. Masq's gimmicks make its difficulty vary too much to be really be considered for anything. You say that 999 makes you squeeze ever last piece of dps out of a class, but fomel Luster can literally ignore his damage resistance mechanic due to the amount of damage sources it has.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Anyone that has put any serious time into endless will tell you it’s the most lit game content going, it’s brutual, unforgiving, and pushes you to your very limit, and makes you use every tool available to you. The fact that you think it’s a gimmick means you really didn’t put any time into it at all. I’ll take phantom for example most normal content you can do just fine with 5 techs grants, llgrants, gigrants zero, rababrta and nanarta zero. You don’t need any other weapons or anything, now try taking that into endless and see how far you get, you will be on for quite a shock.

Endless is more about memorization than anything, also class balance is terrible. A handful of classes tower above others in terms of how far they can go. I call it a gimmick because its not really a demonstration of your knowledge of pso2 mechanics, but how well you know endless quest. That's all I'm going to say on this in this thread though don't want to get too off topic.

Finally

@Ryoga said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Again we were going on about techter cause that’s the class you were going on about at the beginning of the thread

That's a rather invalid point to make as he was not the one who brought it up.

^ This ^

@Ryoga said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Again we were going on about techter cause that’s the class you were going on about at the beginning of the thread

That's a rather invalid point to make as he was not the one who brought it up.

You’re right, I got it mixed up who brought that up

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Ok I was done, but after that last post I had to reply. If you think solo Sodam 100 was the hardest content in the game then you didn’t do the hardest content in the game. Technically Sodam is very easy it’s essentially a gear dps check, I can beat depth 100 Justin spamming llgrants and countering. The hardest content in the game is masq 999 and endless, both of them test you in the full range of your class, and make sure you know how to squeeze every last piece of dps out of it.

Not to get too off topic, but I actually consider Twisted By Hatred the best measure of skill in PSO2 due to it being a 4man extremely difficult quest where class balance is mostly close. Masq's gimmicks make its difficulty vary too much to be really be considered for anything. You say that 999 makes you squeeze ever last piece of dps out of a class, but fomel Luster can literally ignore his damage resistance mechanic due to the amount of damage sources it has.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Anyone that has put any serious time into endless will tell you it’s the most lit game content going, it’s brutual, unforgiving, and pushes you to your very limit, and makes you use every tool available to you. The fact that you think it’s a gimmick means you really didn’t put any time into it at all. I’ll take phantom for example most normal content you can do just fine with 5 techs grants, llgrants, gigrants zero, rababrta and nanarta zero. You don’t need any other weapons or anything, now try taking that into endless and see how far you get, you will be on for quite a shock.

Endless is more about memorization than anything, also class balance is terrible. A handful of classes tower above others in terms of how far they can go. I call it a gimmick because its not really a demonstration of your knowledge of pso2 mechanics, but how well you know endless quest. That's all I'm going to say on this in this thread though don't want to get too off topic.

Finally

@Ryoga said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Again we were going on about techter cause that’s the class you were going on about at the beginning of the thread

That's a rather invalid point to make as he was not the one who brought it up.

^ This ^

How hard hatred actually is on an individual skill level is up for debate if 2 or 3 are good enough they can carry the rest of the group. My best clear time was something like 17:32, and if remember correctly you get 22:30 minutes, so I’ve cleared it with just under 5 minutes to spare. In terms of difficulty testing solo content is always going to be better has you have no one to make up any loss of your dps.

You’re right we are getting off topic so I’ll keep this very brief, doing any run fast is largely memorising and knowing which skill to use at which time, that’s not just endless, you still need the skill to be able to pull it off, which is a lot easier said than done especially in endless when you have so many different factors you are needing to manage on later laps. Has for masq that only applies to luster, every other class doesn’t have that ability so is an extremely good test of skill. So I think it’s safe to say we are going to have to agree to disagree here.

Yes I got mixed up who brought up techter, so I do apologise for me saying you were the one that brought it up.

@Rorana

wow so the current system is good on 2 out of the 6 classes, very cool. Definitely an argument to keep the current system. I've been trying to argue that once content gets hard enough all the usefulness you see in the current system will cease to exist. Kind of like how in base pso2 there was a ton of class variety at first but then as content got harder people found out that most of the class combos just sucked.

I really don't see how anything can lead you to believe that. NGS classes have a lot of the QoL they didn't have in base that caused them to be bad in the first place. Every class has great mobility. Every class has the ability to counter or block. etc.

My argument is that the current system hurts viability of class combos as a whole by making things too situational. When is the current system useful for Force? When is the current system useful for Gunner? When is the current system useful for Ranger?

Force can benefit from the extra PP up time of gunner in combination with it's own PP skills. Can benefit from Reduced damage/knock back from hunter. Can also benefit from fighter's damage boost to downed enemies. And these things can be accessed and beneficial to the other classes as well.

If you are melee? Wow just spec ranged so you can hit things at ranged so cool! ok well is there anything else that is situationally useful?

If you are ranged? Just spec force to help with status. Well that's situationally useful! ok but are there any other sub class combos that would be situationally useful for classes that can always do damage? I doubt it.

Partizan highly benefits from wand. Rod highly benefits from wired lance. TMG's can have a sub for fists to output crazy damage thanks to Fi skip arts letting you skip the first half of PA's, etc. Pretty much every main class can multi a weapon in at least 1 weapon from a different class And it be considered beneficial for utility/combat purposes. I'm not exactly sure what you want out of the multi weapon system. The only improvement i'd like would be to allow your subbed weapons for tmgs to get boosted damage from chain trigger but that might be too strong.

"We need the current system because without it 1 class would be too op", well maybe nerf the class causing the issue instead of nerfing the system as a whole. Maybe if they wanted to system to be this situational THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE ADVERTISED IT AS A MAIN FEATURE OF THE GAME! Isn't not having access to core skills of a weapon enough of a nerf to the weapon? According to you guys, no because TE would be OP.

I don't see how the 10% damage difference can be seen as a nerf. You're doing full damage and have access to that weapon's specific skills wether the weapon is from your main or sub.

It's not my fault Hunter sucks and Techter is op but as is the current system is just a crutch to prop up hunter and weaken Te while making everything worse.

I don't see how Hunter sucks in the slightest. I feel like this is more "how I think things look" versus how things actually are. Hunter being a class that highly benefits from the subclass/multi weapon system doesn't mean it's weak. You can also look at hunter as the starting class that people will gravitate to. Meaning if that class positively interacts with the games other systems it lets a player branch out and try other things which is good. This really feels like "glass half full or half empty" sort of thing.

Finally, as for the argument about 10% not being a lot, did you play before NGS? Cause everything in base was multiplicative, so if this game follows the same trend, 10% damage is HUGE. All this does is make situational PAs even more situational and certain class combinations just bad. Maybe I'd change my mind if you guys weren't just regurgitating worries about TE being op and how melee is fine with current system. Which is a point I've kept trying to make but I guess I am not being clear enough for you to understand. Saying "I am wrong because its useful for me" is not a good argument for a system that only benefits like 3 classes.

Raw damage is more valuable in this current moment and time with NGS. Part of the reason PSO2 was crazy with % was because there was very easily accessible massive boosts to unconditional damage that was available. NGS doesn't have a ton of this laying around and that 10% can be found from many sources. You can also argue that the ability to sub/multi into certain combos means you'd be capable of dishing out more damage in a stun window than if you were just using your raw 110% damage main class weapon and nothing else.

@Gilver-Redgrave said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

I dont understand this thread to be honest.

Multi Weapon gives your Main Weapon a 10% boost while the Sub weapon stays exactly the same. So in fact you just get stronger.

The boost in question is a 10% boost to weapons of your main class, so Fighter using daggers is 10% stronger than Force using daggers (as they are a Fighter weapon). This is irrespective of multi-weapon use and there seems to be no way to circumvent it by using multi-weapons (for instance you cannot use a rod/daggers multi-weapon as a Force/Fighter to get the 10% boost on daggers as a Force).

So the only way to get the 10% boost is to use the class of your preferred weapon as your main class. Which some of us are saying is a good thing because it means each weapon is best used as the class it belongs to instead of by subclassing it to a class that has better offensive skills such as Techter which was an issue even as late as Global's CBT.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

By the way I notice you never replied to my point about Resurgir weapons already requiring you to use 4★ weapons that aren't the strongest if you wanted to multi two main class weapons.

This was my response.

@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

I haven't had much chance to play around with multi weapons as other stuff due to how limited the resources for that are and how hard it is to get 4 stars. Not like I can have multiple maxed out 4 stars to compare with. It's just too early in the life span for me to accurately form an opinion on that aspect

I'd like to point out you've been evangelising over 10% main class bonuses in spite of that. Moreover you don't need a ton of personal experience to see that unless Resurgir overtakes all other 4★ weapon families from enhancement and the level 3 potential, multi-weaponing two main-class weapons already has a damage loss from simply using a worse weapon, and that loss is even felt by the main weapon! Personally I like the variety that drives.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

@Miraglyth said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.:

Of course, the "just get better" argument. The solution to being unable to WL WA into the Bujin hemisphere of death is to be inside it and parrying before it gets to that point. Right.

I mean, thats a valid arguement for how it still helps melees.

Except it's not because that would require omniscience.

This is a game where we fight multiple enemies in groups. It would be entirely possible for you to finish off other enemies and then for the only one to remain to be a Bujin that's just starting its hemisphere attack, and literally the only way to do anything about that if you only have melee weapons would be to go back in time and switch the enemy you're fighting to the Bujin so you have time to get in range for a parry before the attack starts. I think the only Hunter attack that could hit inside that is the partisan throw backloaded at the end of one of its PAs, and that's going to do way less damage than a multi-weapon rod or rifle even without a 10% bonus.


@Rorana said in Can we remove the 10% damage bonus to using "main class weapons" in NGS, just makes multiweapons worse for no reason.

Now hear me out...maybe if they are the second-best at using their own weapons, they just buff the class so that's not the case

Perhaps they should give them a 10% bonus to the damage of their weapons or something.

I'm being flippant here to make a point: That 10% bonus is the buff. They already did what you're suggesting, and you didn't like it.

Okay so there is a lot of things being said that are just above my attention span and knowledge to begin with so if you guys could just answer a simple question. If I am Main Techtar, Sub Force but am using a Rod. Are my techniques going to not get that 10% bonus? Because I usually main a Force but with Force seeming to be the better pick all around for a Subclass, and using Techtar with a Force Subclass seems to give me what I want ( Techtar seems almost pointless as a Subclass).