Classes seem to lacking Photon arts

@ultimatecalibur

Wish I could like this. It's a good example of showing just how much combat has changed from base to NGS.

@ultimatecalibur LIKED. They just smartly condensed the PAs so that they are more effective. The game isn't even out yet and everyone already wants bloat? Thank goodness there are game designers on NGS who know how to do their job.

I actualy read the posts here, and I have reconsidered my opinion. I agree, there are indeed a load of so much useless Photon arts that are barely used by the players.

I actualy like that they too many of the mechanics of the Scion classes and integrated them into the NGS classes (Such as the Hunter now can make counter-dodge like the Hero in PSO2 and etc)

I'm only hoping that SEGA wont repeat the same power-creeping mistakes it did with the original PSO2 and be forced to create insanely overpowered enemies like Masquerade, Phaleg Ives and Shiva.

@Merelambasted Exactly. Many of the classic PAs and Techs were combined or condensed into the NGS PAs and Techs while other PA/Techs were turned into class abilities, WAs or integrated into the NA variations.

@ultimatecalibur said in Classes seem to lacking Photon arts:

Look at Rifle what was formerly covered by 13 PAs is now covered by the following

That's an excellent breakdown. Much respect!

@ultimatecalibur

You're trying too hard to find shallow similarities. In particular long cooldown abilities or PBs can never serve the same purpose as PAs. Another normal out of sprint or a dive attack doesn't really equal having a PA with a specific purpose and merging the strengths of two PAs into one makes the game more shallow.

There exist even simpler comparison like Sword having 3PAs. Spiral Edge is really just Rising Edge but with one less charge state. Twist Zapper is just buffed Nova Strike with one less charge state too. Charge Calibur feels like a sort of Over End with the utility of Blade Bash when uncharged, but less meaning to it without a real TAJA/TACB bonus. Other than that your step attack gets buffed when countering, and your guard counter does damage. You could say Blaze Parry capability is integrated into Avenger, but that doesn't make equity and that's why 4th PA or addition of new attack modes through the skill tree should be high on the priorities list. You're still missing about 3PAs that had a lot of use in PSO2 (Sonic, Sacrificial, Twister that also had two modes with the craft) , 2 less used ones (Ride Slasher, Cruel Throw), and disabling charge modes from Nova and Rising even though all had their use from PSO2.

4th PA/other expansions would only do well for NGS in the long run even if you liked how weapons behaved.

@Hooonter said in Classes seem to lacking Photon arts:

long cooldown abilities or PBs can never serve the same purpose as PAs.

Nor are they really trying to. Classes are being reworked which includes several new multi-function attacks. If it really matters to you that you have more one-function attacks than you can possibly fit on your weapon palette, PSO2 is still here?

I'm really curious why it's so vital that we all must have more inputs than we can actually make. To me that seems like horrible design. And don't suggest putting 5+ PAs on the sub-palette. I want to play PSO2, not the piano.

@Miraglyth

More than we have? I am all for fitting things in but just for your information if you're using the optimal control scheme you have 5 slots for PAs on your palette and the option to switch between those. 4th PA isn't such a deal breaker now, is it? Multiweapon already can't fit all the actions of both weapons on one, and putting one or two PAs on the subpalette in fact isn't a deal breaker and would be less so had we had more proper bind settings without relying on macros. Playing the game optimally shouldn't take comfort as the top priority and you always have the option to just take the performance hit if you can't handle one button more. As I said before with my new weapon skill suggestion it's not even about that. I would be equally happy if they added some functionality coded by specific combination of buttons or whatever would be the best.

No idea why you're telling me to go to PSO2 either just because I am mentioning one element where NGS is a downgrade, but an element that doesn't exist without context. I am willing to defend many design choices in NGS but some I am not. I do like stay/move arts and skip arts or many of Luster's built in actions but my problem is that even accounting for that NGS could use more as especially on Hunter having two different charge modes isn't a novelty because you had 3 before. Meanwhile many people will defend NGS as if being able to charge Razing Shot was like two PAs in one.

@Hooonter said in Classes seem to lacking Photon arts:

@ultimatecalibur

You're trying too hard to find shallow similarities. In particular long cooldown abilities or PBs can never serve the same purpose as PAs.

They can and do. The resources used for an attack do not determine the purpose or utilities of an attack. All a PP cost does is determine the factors that restrict its use.

Another normal out of sprint or a dive attack doesn't really equal having a PA with a specific purpose

Yes, it ends up superior when it is a free PA power level attack that costs no resources.

and merging the strengths of two PAs into one makes the game more shallow.

Having a chargeable PA/Tech which the only relevant differences between each charge stage is range, area of effect and damage output is false depth. Player will identify the most cost effective version and then just use that charge state.

Foie and Rafoie being two different actions does not make the game deeper. Merging the two into one Tech with the charged and uncharged forms being different actually increases tactical depth as it actual increases the number of actions available to a player at anyone time.

@Hooonter said in Classes seem to lacking Photon arts:

just for your information if you're using the optimal control scheme you have 5 slots for PAs on your palette and the option to switch between those.

Six weapon palette slots (three buttons and a shift) means normal attack, weapon action and the four PAs Hunter and Fighter at least already have.


@Hooonter said in Classes seem to lacking Photon arts:

putting one or two PAs on the subpalette in fact isn't a deal breaker

I am mentioning one element where NGS is a downgrade

Tell that to Bouncers with their 14 sub-palette entries without PAs and more soaring blade PAs than fit on the weapon palette. Scion classes combined PAs and abilities into fewer multi-function inputs as a sanity measure, and NGS classes have clearly adopted this philosophy - I disagree that it is a downgrade. I think it's a critical upgrade, and seeing N-Bouncer without input clutter is perhaps what I'm most looking forward to in all of NGS.

We don't need to go back to having more useful inputs than we have room for, and we certainly don't need a dozen PAs just for the sake of having a dozen PAs when most of them won't be used at all.

@ultimatecalibur

Of course resources determine the usage of the attack. PB doesn't bring much depth besides waiting for the core phase to unload and isn't even available in most fight. That makes it a shitty option.

Having a chargeable PA/Tech which the only relevant differences between each charge stage is range, area of effect and damage output is false depth. Player will identify the most cost effective version and then just use that charge state.

Cost effectiveness doesn't matter when you have overfill situation with PP which is why there are different usages for Rising Edge at max and at half charge. In the same vein cost effectiveness matters when you don't have that PP. It's an action game so frame data and length of PA are also important factors and at this point. As I said all those charge levels had their purpose in PSO2. You wouldn't use a full charged Nova Strike if all the mobs die in one hit.

Yes, it ends up superior when it is a free PA power level attack that costs no resources.

It's not PA power level attack or at least not in the regards to DPS. No idea where you take some of this from.

Merging the two into one Tech with the charged and uncharged forms being different actually increases tactical depth as it actual increases the number of actions available to a player at anyone time.

It leaves the exact same options except NGS is still missing tech forms and whole elements. All that matters is that there is a third tech with two modes.

You're trying too hard to obscure the actual facts that the actually important variety drives in NGS are too few and just need to be improved. Having Foie and Rafoie under one button doesn't matter for that topic when in fact you only get two of these buttons per element while PSO2 had like 6+. Nobody is asking them to stop bundling up PAs with skip arts/alternate modes but to just add some more. I played enough Hunter in PSO2 and in the Closed Beta to know that while I liked the toolkit it was incredibly lacking in variety compared to how many moves you had in PSO2.

Shallow combat is shallow combat, no matter how one looks at it

Not that I’d mind something like the rifle being full auto tho. XD