Module availability considering NGS

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

Does anyone more experienced with all this farming have a good grasp of the module drop rates?

Should be about 10%.

@Ryoga said in Module availability considering NGS:

Should be about 10%.

...yikes.

@Ryoga said in Module availability considering NGS:

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

Does anyone more experienced with all this farming have a good grasp of the module drop rates?

Should be about 10%.

Don’t know what that actual drop rate is, but it should be higher than that. Back when we were farming Exegul on stage 20, we were each averaging 20 to 30 modules a day, theirs no way we were doing 200 to 300 runs.

On average we would do 6 to 8 hours on those days, at an average of 10 minutes a run, including clearing inventory and restarting, so that’s 36 to 48 runs, may e a few more on a really heavy day, but all in all, I’d say I was getting a module about 40% of the time. That was just using daily boost, party boost, 250% rdr and 100% tri

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Module availability considering NGS:

Back when we were farming Exegul on stage 20, we were each averaging 20 to 30 modules a day, theirs no way we were doing 200 to 300 runs. On average we would do 6 to 8 hours on those days

So that was... what, 25 modules from other sources and 5 days of doing that for 6-8 hours? That works out to about 35 hours in total, just for the Exegul modules, and it sounds like you had the benefit of playing in a group which are objectively considerably faster when lives don't run out and you get an extra RDR boost for it... and which doesn't really happen anymore so a post-NGS repeat of that effort would take much longer now.

I take it back, I don't think I even want to know the drop rate. This detail of overall time sunk is more than illustrative enough to scare me away. This is simply not an appropriate amount of grind for content that's no longer the latest PSO2 gameplay loop IMO. As with almost every other not-latest content having their grinds or their drop rates eased over the delivery of subsequent content, they should really give modules a considerable bump up.

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Module availability considering NGS:

Back when we were farming Exegul on stage 20, we were each averaging 20 to 30 modules a day, theirs no way we were doing 200 to 300 runs. On average we would do 6 to 8 hours on those days

So that was... what, 25 modules from other sources and 5 days of doing that for 6-8 hours? That works out to about 35 hours in total, just for the Exegul modules, and it sounds like you had the benefit of playing in a group which are objectively considerably faster when lives don't run out and you get an extra RDR boost for it... and which doesn't really happen anymore so a post-NGS repeat of that effort would take much longer now.

I take it back, I don't think I even want to know the drop rate. This detail of overall time sunk is more than illustrative enough to scare me away. This is simply not an appropriate amount of grind for content that's no longer the latest PSO2 gameplay loop IMO. As with almost every other not-latest content having their grinds or their drop rates eased over the delivery of subsequent content, they should really give modules a considerable bump up.

I don’t deny any of that, I was just pointing out that the drop rate should be higher than 10%, at least in a full party.

@Miraglyth

Yes, MMO's require you to grind significantly to get the best gear in the game. Don't look at how difficult and time consuming it is to get FFXI's best weapons and armor, you might have a heart attack.

@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Module availability considering NGS:

I don’t deny any of that, I was just pointing out that the drop rate should be higher than 10%, at least in a full party.

Then it's appreciated, thanks! 🙂


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

Don't look at how difficult and time consuming it is to get FFXI's best weapons and armor, you might have a heart attack.

I know from personal experience exactly how difficult and time consuming it was to not only do so (and before that even to level up) during the time of Chains of Promathia and early Treasures of Aht Urhgan and that those were dramatically eased both when FFXI got subsequent expansions. More to the point I also know they were even eased when it didn't get such expansions, as a way to both retain and regain players in many of the years that followed, potentially due to the field widening with a breadth of MMOs with more satisfying progression.

I don't know what FFXI's current endgame progression (both in terms of getting optimal gear but also how strictly required it is for the hardest quests) is, but I would wager that if it were as horrifying as you suggest and if FFXI were to suddenly ask all its players to play FFXI: New Genesis instead, they would appropriately reduce this just the same. And even if they didn't in this hypothetical, that wouldn't magically make it a good decision. TLDR: "That's irrelevant."

@Miraglyth

My Point ->

Your Head ->

The Point is that PSO2 is, at it's core, an MMO. And just beacuse NGS is coming out, doesn't suddenly mean PSO2 should be turned into casual happy fun time mode where you get everything for minimal work.

Most of your gear progression in PSO2 isn't really going to matter in NGS, ergo there is zero reason for them to nerf the drops in the game, just like how despite there being far superior gear to the old AF and Relic Weapons in FFXI today, SE still hasn't really reduced the time commitment it takes to create them (mostly because those weapons and armor are still relevant through an also lengthy upgrade process). Let's also not forget that FFXIV did, effectively, bring an end to XI's content updates (at least there for a while). So yes, XI did basically get the NGS treatment with XIV, and no, SE didn't nerf any of the progression time to get the best gear in the game, just made it slightly easier to solo those grinds. And no, the playerbase did not complain about it ,because they were happy for the grind, as that's a core part of XI's gameplay structure - working hard and putting a large time investment in to get a very powerful reward.

We get it - you're not happy that it's going to actually take time to either earn, or build, the Klauz units. But that's okay, because they are the pinnacle of gear in PSO2. Once you acquire them, there is effectively nothing left to chase for your character. So they should remain difficult to acquire, as they exist primarily for completions sake, and nothing else.

At the absolute most, I could agree with Sega adjusting the drop tables of the bosses to always guarantee a single drop per kill, but that's it. Your idea of the bosses dropping 5-10 modules per kill is ridiculous. That would completely trivalize the grind, and at that point you may as well just have the units buyable with Rising Weapon Badges instead.

On stage 31-35, Exegul and Varuna are guaranteed module drops, has long as you get the kill, they just don’t always spawn in every run though.

I mean... it's not like you can take your XI character and stuff to XIV and vice versa which is something you can do in PSO2/NGS. I guess they felt that they need to make those changes so NGS can look more appetizing. Not that I don't think they could do it more better.

@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

My Point ->

Your Head ->

Sorry but I'm not about this. You attempted a comparison and I provided several reasons why it either strengthens my perspective or doesn't work. I don't see what this posturing exercise does for either of us.


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

just beacuse NGS is coming out, doesn't suddenly mean PSO2 should be turned into casual happy fun time mode where you get everything for minimal work.

We get it - you're not happy that it's going to actually take time

Really. Can we stop with this accusatory approach to the discussion? I've been more than clear that I still think players should work for modules. The opening post literally says I'd prefer Divide Quests to remain necessary over modules even being added as a Weapons Badge exchange. I called the mere idea of a handout "even worse".

Wanting a grind to be appropriate for what will so clearly no longer be the content that the PSO2 developers want players to focus on does not make me lazy. I don't believe this approach to the discussion is constructive.


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

Your idea of the bosses dropping 5-10 modules per kill is ridiculous. That would completely trivalize the grind

See this is more valuable discussion; it reviews the idea itself and opens the door to me thinking about it a bit more, leading with an question that I'm also asking myself: "Would it?" So I'll take the opportunity to explore that question:

It's 15-20 minutes per run for what'd be 7.5 modules presuming a 100% boss kill rate, with 350 modules needed. That still works out to around 14 hours overall, probably more since the Mitra modules specifically would take longer given her appearance as a boss is either RNG on 20/25 or a harder takedown on 30.

It does occur to me now you've brought it up though that at that volume there'd be opportunity to take advantage of immediately finishing Covert Ops runs to dramatically cut that time down; ~85% of the time you could choose Covert Ops quests in two of the four stages and finish them immediately, cutting each run time down to around 10 minutes. The rest of the time Covert Ops would be both choices in one stage so you could only do that once in a run to cut it down to around 14 minutes. and the overall time to 8½ hours (plus Mitra finding). And that'd be enabled by an overall S rank on the run neither helping your stats or stage modifiers against the boss itself or raising the module drop rate.

Is 8½ hours (plus Mitra finding) low? Maybe a little. Mentally I'm thinking around 15-20 hours for the set is reasonable, particularly considering Twisted With Hatred is dropping so many Klauz units outright that the minimal number of people who can run that are openly joking about making videos of discarding 20+ of them.

So I'll revise the idea to fit better to effort: 0 modules base. +1 for stages 11-20, +1 for stages 21-30 and +3 for stages 31+. +1 for B rank, +1 for A rank, +1 for S rank. Now someone rushing Stage 1-5, skipping two Covert Ops and hammering Exegul will just get at most 1 module (two Cs in Covert means no higher than B overall) instead of 5, while someone playing for the S rank on stage 25 will get 5. Still the same 14+ hours (plus Mitra finding) overall but without practically exploiting the lower stages and Covert Ops' format to dramatically reduce that.

Regardless of whether you believe that would be an acceptable overall time, hopefully you can see that this is a marked improvement over the idea in the topic's opening post and perhaps understand the benefit of critiquing the idea rather than the person presenting it. Similarly if this new iteration still has an exploitable hole, I'd welcome this to be pointed out as I don't want the module grind to be too easy myself.


@TEN-SQUARE-3 said in Module availability considering NGS:

On stage 31-35, Exegul and Varuna are guaranteed module drops, has long as you get the kill

Yeah and that is quite a big if; unlike the fifth-stage bosses, Varuna and Exegul (and Sodam, which can apparently drop the units outright) on Stages 31-34 are considered normal-stage suppression enemies without supplying any regular enemies to provide the generous damage-boosting PSE effect. This means solo players in particular are hugely down on damage compared to fifth-stage bosses because for the first 90 seconds or so they have no party size boost!

The only times I've seen either (one Varuna, one Sodam with a Player Damage -20% modifier iirc) I was sufficiently far enough away from the defeat that they'd have gone down had the party also had three identical clones of me. But Divide Quests are dead as a party activity now, which means not only is that not an avenue but there also isn't anyone holding open a "Varuna Room" anymore to allow the fight to be repeated over and over for four hours for fast module acquisition either.


@Velveteer said in Module availability considering NGS:

I mean... it's not like you can take your XI character and stuff to XIV and vice versa which is something you can do in PSO2/NGS.

You barely can in PSO2/NGS. If that were the case 4★ units in NGS could be taken back into PSO2 and would be stronger than Klauz units (which are 3★ in NGS) lol. There's a limited one-way ability to use PSO2 items in NGS which will become obsoleted by design either on NGS launch or when 5★ and higher equipment is added.

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

See this is more valuable discussion; it reviews the idea itself and opens the door to me thinking about it a bit more, leading with an question that I'm also asking myself: "Would it?" So I'll take the opportunity to explore that question: It's 15-20 minutes per run for what'd be 7.5 modules presuming a 100% boss kill rate, with 350 modules needed. That still works out to around 14 hours overall, probably more since the Mitra modules specifically would take longer given her appearance as a boss is either RNG on 20/25 or a harder takedown on 30.

14 hours for what are literally the best units in the game, bar none, is indeed completely invalidating the grind. It took me longer to casually grind out my Lightweave Weapon just doing 6-10 runs. Why, then, should it take less time to get a full set of the best units in the game?

It shouldn't, simple as that.

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

So I'll revise the idea to fit better to effort: 0 modules base. +1 for stages 11-20, +1 for stages 21-30 and +3 for stages 31+. +1 for B rank, +1 for A rank, +1 for S rank. Now someone rushing Stage 1-5, skipping two Covert Ops and hammering Exegul will just get at most 1 module (two Cs in Covert means no higher than B overall) instead of 5, while someone playing for the S rank on stage 25 will get 5. Still the same 14+ hours (plus Mitra finding) overall but without practically exploiting the lower stages and Covert Ops' format to dramatically reduce that.

All of this is basically changing the same problem your initial point made - invalidating the grind to the point where it will take very little effort to get the best units in the game. Divide Quests were designed to be used to get players their Lightweave Weapons, and give them a way to slowly work towards the Klauz series. Keyword there - Slowly. It was made as a long term goal, and when Primordial was released, it was changed to being a way to target a specific unit you didn't get from Sodam.

As I said - the only change that is really needed is to guarantee a single Module drop from killing the boss. This allows the player guaranteed progress towards the Klauz units each time they successfully complete a run and kill the boss at the end, while simultaneously awarding a player for playing well and actually killing said boss to reap their reward.

And the reason I'm stating that you don't like the grind, is that you're bending over backwards to try to find ways to invalidate it. You can right long paragraphs and change "how" the Modules are dropped, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still dialing it up too high, for the sole purpose of removing the grind. And for what? There's nothing to do in PSO2 after you get your full set of Klauz units other than min/max their augments to...do Divide Quests faster?

Klauz Units are, as I stated before, a medal of completion. They're not required for anything other than Twisted with Hatred, and even than a good player with a good team can get by without them, they just have to up their game further.

If I can complete all the content currently in the game with a Lightweave Bow, one Klauz Unit, and two Trailblazer units that are properly augmented on my Braver, remind me again why they need to drastically reduce the grind time to get ahold of Klauz units?

Just leave them as they are - they're not required for anything, and they can remain as something a player who still wants to play PSO2 can work towards. As I stated - at most I'd be okay with them changing the drop rate to 100% for the modules on a successful boss kill. But everything else is unnecessary, given that NGS is right around the corner, and nothing in PSO2 requires a full set of Klauz units to complete.

If you don't like that opinion, welp I don't know what to tell you, because from the looks of things, Sega seems to agree with it. Maybe they'll change it, and maybe they will severely reduce the grind and make it so anyone gets a set for just showing up.

But given we're less than two weeks away from NGS, it's probably not very likely that's going to happen. So it might better to just focus on running Sodam and joining Trigger groups, or making your own, than arguing against people who like to see something in an MMO still require time and effort to acquire.

Reducing the grind for the best units in a game that is focused on grinding to 14 hours pretty much invalidates everything else. If it only took 14 hours to get Klauz units, almost every other option for units would be harder to get.

@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

Klauz Units are, as I stated before, a medal of completion. They're not required for anything

Actually Klauz units (with "god affixes") are not just "a medal of completion" as they are required to meet specific thresholds for certain effects which otherwise either wouldn't be viable or would require specific support you can't take for granted to work.

Also, while they are not a "requirement" for clearing content people trying to optimize their build as much as possible still a good thing especially with NGS lowering the general performance level of your average MPA.

That being said I don't think that Klauz units are much of an issue when it comes to "finishing you build", I'd be more worried about stuff like the capsules from the mission badge exchanges or certain RNG SSA drops from niche content "nobody" farms (and thus nobody sells) anymore.

@Miraglyth said in Module availability considering NGS:

Mentally I'm thinking around 15-20 hours for the set is reasonable

@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

14 hours [snip] is indeed completely invalidating the grind.

@NIC said in Module availability considering NGS:

Reducing the grind [snip] to 14 hours pretty much invalidates everything else.

Look guys, it's fine if you want to disagree - and I would like to hear what level of grind you think is reasonable considering earlier in the topic NIC proposed alternatives that "pretty much dropped like candy everywhere" as acceptable - but misquoting me to exaggerate the level of grind I'm advocating really isn't helpful or wise because you must know I'm going to call it out even when doing it.


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

It took me longer to casually grind out my Lightweave Weapon just doing 6-10 runs.

I'm curious about this. What material was the bottleneck? If it was the enhance cap of the Darkweave Agile itself, there are several alternatives to using Divide to get six of those including just buying Cap +1, 5 of which have been worth about 8 Mitra modules this week because module prices are still gradually rising.


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

And the reason I'm stating that you don't like the grind, is that you're bending over backwards to try to find ways to invalidate it.

Except I'm not. I'm seeking it to be reduced. When I've literally stated and reiterated that I don't even want it to have a badge exchange, for you to claim I want it "invalidated" is straight-up lying. Please stop doing that.


@Blade-Syphon said in Module availability considering NGS:

because from the looks of things, Sega seems to agree with it.

Sega has historically agreed with making old content drop easier. We certainly don't need to run Corrupted Naverius for several hours with boosters to get a single Nemesis drop anymore; we get so many of those from Cradle that our temporary storage overflows.

Even if they didn't, it'd be a fallacious statement. I'm suggesting reducing the grind for modules after NGS releases, as made pretty clear by its use as one of the four words in this topic's title. NGS hasn't released yet. We have no idea what they agree with.

And that's even before considering that Sega priced the units at a number of modules that considered how long JP players both had to obtain them prior to the exchange being added and would need to use them between that time and NGS launching, which were both way shorter than the comparable timeline Global had while keeping the same price. So to cite Sega's intentions is also unwise.


And none of either of your replies covers the demonstrable fact that there isn't a co-ordinated effort to ease module farming anymore. Varuna Rooms are gone. Parties which objectively better for farming speed and boss takedown ability are also objectively harder to find and assemble than they were when Divide Quests first released.

Whatever your belief or intention for the grind, it is longer than it used to be and was designed to be purely because it's not vogue anymore. What might have taken 50 hours a few months ago may take 60 today.

So even if nothing else, the module grind should arguably be reduced to bring the total grind time more into line with the shorter amount of time that it used to be when Divide Quests were first launched. No?


@Ryoga said in Module availability considering NGS:

That being said I don't think that Klauz units are much of an issue when it comes to "finishing you build"

This as well. It's not as though reducing a 50 hour grind to 20 is going to magically make anyone who goes through it have a perfect build all of a sudden.

S6: Skillful Adept is still a sickeningly rare drop-only SGA that some classes rely on. S8: Skydance Support that others rely on still realistically needs clearing Space-Time Interstice Depth 80 which is its own (perfectly reasonable!) effort. Most of the important S7 SGAs possibly covering all classes are rare drop-only. High-grade capsule acquisition and the augmentation process itself is still a pain regardless of the units used.

Easing the module grind appropriately for it not being PSO2 vogue activity anymore does not proportionally reduce the entirety of progression. When you include the rest of the unit setup process and the building of potentially multiple weapons and their augments for 12 of the 13 classes, it's a small piece of the puzzle. We are not talking about trivialising progress in OG PSO2 here.