Force underpowered as usual?

@LusterMain said in Force underpowered as usual?:

Force feels underpowered for a variety of reasons, imo

  • Main class skill (Photon Flare) is really bad (horrible uptime for a really weak effect)

  • Techniques are barely stronger than normals and the bonus damage from playing to their mechanics isn't enough to compensate

  • PP conversion is rendered almost completely ineffective thanks to new force gameplay revolving around using mostly uncharged techniques

  • When attacking, you are slowed down significantly. This is a huge nerf from PSO2, where you could glide around at full running speed while in cast animations - but I haven't tried out other classes to see if this is intentional gameplay design or just Fo

Force is the only (or one of the only?) class lacking a counter, instead getting a guard that refunds a little pp - when other class counters do lots of damage

You more or less sum up the issues with FO perfectly! I hope Sega takes these suggestions and looks at the class further to make it more viable compared to the other classes, I found PP conversion to be more useful as a subclass skill than for the actual FO which is...kinder weird. Photon Flare and TEs Shifta/Deband just don't last long enough, I kinder understand about Photon Flare since it's a potency boost but like you said, its effect is pretty weak for its uptime but again, this could be due to cbt and limited options. If they simplified the skill tree that much without giving the players freedom to create builds, that might not be for the best.

I think the class needs the most amount of work over other classes.

@Amari-Kigu Though since you mentioned in another topic that you didn't use rod during the beta, you didn't truly play FO.

@Jamesmor This is a photon blast though... Not really a good representation of the Force's damage output.

@Ezodagrom said in Force underpowered as usual?:

@Amari-Kigu Though since you mentioned in another topic that you didn't use rod during the beta, you didn't truly play FO.

@Amari-Kigu said in Force underpowered as usual?:

Photon Flare and TEs Shifta/Deband just don't last long enough

and as it looks like he did not play TE either...first FO was a "close combat" character and now shifta deband dont last long enough

but maybe he played a melee FO who wacked at the enemy with a wand who knows...and his shifta/deband obviously been bugged...i mean it could be...i believe in humanity first

i played most class's during the beta and for ranger, tecter and force to 15, i settled on te/fo using a +30 lvl3 potential 3 star rod affixed x3 and 3x3* units affixed x3, te as a main class gives the aoe boosted heal and shifta/deband for yourself and everyone around you in a smol aoe and always to everyone in your party, its also stat wise one of the tankiest class's having one of the highest hp values, force boasting more attack and less hp.

Photon flare sucks right now since the attack is % up rather than a set amount and we only had a very small amount of attack even in max beta gear this will only get more powerful as the game goes on, the 50pp while looking to be a nice amount is not due to the new way i found to play Rod thats why i swapped to te/fo

PP conversion is pretty OP and very valuable for anyclass that wish's to spam more i can certainly imagine gunner and ranger using fo sub for it and te.

what i also did was make a food recipe to increase pp recovery and reduce pp consumption while increasing max pp. The damage of force was meduim in numbers compared to other class's but so consistent the actual dps would be higher on almost any target that wasnt standing still, add to that if you boost run into a double jump the height you gained was enough to be out of any danger and you can hang in the air almost indefinitely, if you used a certain rotation: normal > unchagerd tec > normal > normal > uncharged tec changing based on pp level, also add the fact foire also has few extra little attacks when uncharged adding for me, between 30-50dmg per cast.

Force is weaker right now because the base stats are lower, but Rod is far from it infact i want to see it nerfed or at least have the boss's and mobs beable to punish you for being able to get off free dmg with no danger a million miles in the air.

The actual pain point of FO is the same a TE, you cannot animation cancel into a dodge or guard while other class's can the animations are too long to swap quickly enough into a guard/dodge consistently when you spot certain "wind ups" to attacks aimed at you, this was especially evident in the UQ when tanking it.

@Miyuki-Kupo said in Force underpowered as usual?:

Photon flare sucks right now since the attack is % up rather than a set amount and we only had a very small amount of attack even in max beta gear this will only get more powerful as the game goes on, the 50pp while looking to be a nice amount is not due to the new way i found to play Rod thats why i swapped to te/fo

Photon flare sucks because... it's just bad. If it's not buffed somehow it will always be worse than just going Te/Fo and using Shifta/Deband instead, seeing as Shifta provides the exact same increase in potency and has no downtime (while Photon Flare is only active 1/6th of the time).

PP conversion is pretty OP and very valuable for anyclass that wish's to spam more i can certainly imagine gunner and ranger using fo sub for it and te.

Unfortunately, Fo of all classes benefits from it's own skill the least, seeing as you cant regenerate PP when in cast animations (and thanks to NGS fo being uncharged tech spam...)

Force is weaker right now because the base stats are lower, but Rod is far from it infact i want to see it nerfed or at least have the boss's and mobs beable to punish you for being able to get off free dmg with no danger a million miles in the air.

From experience bosses have many attacks that should be capable of hitting you in the air. You aren't much more safe, and Force's inherent squishiness (most notably from PP convert) is likely to help balance this out as well.

In addition, techniques aren't always going to have the absurd range to enable this given that almost half of them (counting charge/uncharge as separate) in the beta have fairly short range (uncharged gifoie, gibarta, gizonde). Notably, these are the best techs for dealing with mobs, which are going to be the enemies that struggle the most with picking you out from the air. The long range techniques (foie, charged gifoie, zonde) have much more trouble mobbing.

Also, it's not like this kind of play is encouraged. Force has access to a counter and a pp-restoring guard.

The actual pain point of FO is the same a TE, you cannot animation cancel into a dodge or guard while other class's can the animations are too long to swap quickly enough into a guard/dodge consistently when you spot certain "wind ups" to attacks aimed at you, this was especially evident in the UQ when tanking it.

All other classes appear to have the same issue. It's intentional design (though i've heard they are making cancel frames on everything more lenient for release).

@Miyuki-Kupo said in Force underpowered as usual?:

boss's and mobs beable to punish you for being able to get off free dmg with no danger a million miles in the air.

That's exactly what Daityl Sword's eye laser is for.

i have seen almost all of the intended abilities intended to know you out of the air, the best one i have seen is by far the banser's multi projectile with the center one aimed directly at you, if you are holding A or D while in the air you move slowly in that direction, outside of the UQ you almost always will move slightly out of the hitbox, the lazer from sword is exactly the same, the hitbox is too thin to hit you moving in the air

edit: as far as pp conversion is concerned with the over powered food i hardly ever needed to use it, when i did it was to add more tecs to the spam. Also the range of tecs are pretty far, all of the single target ones, the downside is they are projectiles and not hitscan, the photon flare compared to shifta buff i see your point luster

edit2: as far as mobbing was concerned rod had no reason to be up in the air safe since you could just nuke them down pretty fast using AOE

@Miyuki-Kupo

The problem with PP conversion is, again, that of all classes Force gets the least benefit (even though it's its own skill). Not only that, but it also gives you a sizable max HP reduction, so it's use as Force can be questionable. It's not a bad skill on it's own, but thanks to being worse on Fo I think that qualifies as Fo being underpowered, at least in this regard (also, fo by far is the most PP hungry class. Needing around a full or more bar of PP to build up the tech mechanics that are worth about a PA from another class is a bit silly).

edit2: as far as mobbing was concerned rod had no reason to be up in the air safe since you could just nuke them down pretty fast using AOE

This is what I was getting at. You could play safer and stay where the mobs have a harder time to hit you, or you could play riskier and get rewarded for it. Thanks to counters and guards, the same applies to bosses where you will be using single target techs as well.

Really, being able to be safer floating around isn't an issue with Force or the rod, but enemy design. With updrafters placed all around the UQ boss, everyone could have done this (although not necessarily while attacking). Enemies and bosses just need to be designed with this possibility in mind, not Force nerfed.

Thats why those vets need to have their AI changed for this, with a higher prio on ranged attacks if the tank is so far up the Z axis, id also like to point out you can WA in the air and still maintain the height, while dodging will drop you to the ground, the power of being so high is 90% of the attacks are ground based and you dont even have to care about them, i said you could be a million miles in the air, this is true for max range ST but you dont need to be that high as a Rod to be out of the majority of danger, getting free dmg off without a care in the world, im not saying i did this for every boss and i did try it in the UQ and got punished pretty hard every time as the tank, but if another was tanking i could float freely, ground based combat is how these fights were designed but with a game design on 3d movement, i feel they overlooked this when designing most of the tougher enemies.

But i will state this again, Force is weak, while Rod is too stong

Not sure why its a Force or rod thing, given gunner has the easiest time staying in the air indefinitely while keeping mobility and wand can still use the same techs as rod.

i never mentioned gunner because this is a post about force, gunner has the same level of ease in the air, the reason its a force and not a wand, it because for rod you can regen pp with a ranged normal attack, wand is mele.

@Miyuki-Kupo

Yeah, they definitely need to design the enemies with people not just being on the ground the whole time in mind. Another interesting problem with current enemy design, though, is that other classes can achieve a similar effect by using the terrain - find a cliff and get a boss stuck on it, and it can't do much about it. The bosses definitely feel like they were designed for "old" PSO2, where you are usually on a perfectly flat, enclosed arena and Leaping Dodge is usually ignored (seriously, the amount of things I've seen get cheesed with it...).

@LusterMain

i didnt want to mention this because i found several positional exploits with pretty much everything in the game, the most notable is our best friend the doggo and abusing the trees to either force an interaction pause or having most of the attacks hit a tree

@Miyuki-Kupo

At least it seems like they know it's a possible issue. I've seen enemies weirdly teleport around the terrain under conditions like this, presumably because the AI noticed something was wrong.