Serious concerns about the future of NGS

@Matt said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

The combat is also pretty bad, what kind of design decision is it to give everyone a step counter, but it's not possible to use it properly in your toolkit because every attack has huge commits and cannot be cancelled?

The right design decision. You just have to actually think about its proper use instead of it being a complete no-brainer where you spam it at every opportunity like it is in PSO2 right now.

Powerful tools should have drawbacks to using them, otherwise they're easily abused, leading to shallow and repetitive autopilot gameplay. It's balancing 101

@uB I agree, the reason why PSO2 ends up throwing so many enemies at you is because they have a power scaling problem. In order to make you feel overwhelmed they have to put an absurd amount of enemies on the screen because your toolkit is so spam-able. I like this more methodical approach.

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean.

Naturally you need to have attacks where you must commit to them during openings, but currently every single PA has a significant commitment, so combat against faster enemies just becomes normals, steps and guards, than actually learning where you can use attacks: Because you can't use attacks.

When fighting the Bujin for example and it starts attacking, assuming you want to counter its attacks (which you should want to, counter gameplay should always be more rewarding than outright evasion or tanking), there is nothing you can do except normals as PAs are simply too long. Maybe it's just because PAs are missing since its beta, but it's not a good first impression.

For example as Hunter, the 3rd PA (which you hold and do slow strikes) shouldn't be cancellable during the attacks as it requires a commitment for its strong damage, but the other 2 weaker PAs should be (the Rising Edge and Nova Strike ripoffs), however they simply are not.

@uB said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

You just have to actually think about its proper use

Except this is an ARPG, if I wanted to "plan things out" then I would be playing something like WoW. Fluid fast paced gameplay is one of the main things and ARPG should get right and if NGS fails in that regard then it would be nothing but a downgrade from some of the stuff base PSO2 curently has to offer.


@Merelambasted said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

the reason why PSO2 ends up throwing so many enemies at you is because they have a power scaling problem

No, the reason why "PSO2 ends up throwing so many enemies at you" is because the design of almost all non boss enemies is just abysmal and pales in comparison to what even PSO1 had to offer.

@Krinos said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

The one thing I would mention that bothers me is locking content behind combat power. Sure, you need good stats to run content, but making mandatory benchmarks, and poor stat scaling will just lead NGS down the same path as say Maplestory 2.

wasn maple 2 that p2w trash game - cant compare that with pso2

950 battle power is easy and i mean easy achieveable with little to no effort - bet future content gonna be the same thing and maybe we will see some sort of "expert matching" FINALLY in NGS - wich literally everyone is asking for who played pso2 for a lil bit

so according to the first UQ the next ones will be easy achieveable FOR SURE to take part in those....you see the same system (kinda) in ff14 and that game is not even close to being dead

@JuggernautGTX said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

wasn maple 2 that p2w trash game - cant compare that with pso2

The korean version was, the global version was not but that's beside the point as the criticism in regards to CP is still valid.

@Matt

If you want the fastest cancel then uncharged Twist Sapper can nearly immediately guard cancelled after the first two slashes, but I am unsure if it's worth doing that with around 100PP bar outside of using it as a gap closer.

I don't think it's a problem that normals have more use in DPS rotations. In PSO2 you would also use nearly exclusively normal attacks and stun coincide when not countering with Ignite on the specific bosses that are about as aggressive as Bujin. The only real thing that changed is that there is no fully satisfying fast PA to be worth putting PP into during these situations yet, and instead you can choose between doing either normal attacks or the dive attack. I really think it's just trying to carry over specific things from PSO2 into NGS. Using normal attacks between gaps isn't any less skillful/worse designed than having assured 100% cancellable PA you can use there instead.

The problem isn't as widespread outside of Bujin either. The dog boss has plenty of opportunities for PAs, just as Didal Sword or the UQ boss. You can even use PAs with Photon Arts Avenger in many places.

Edit: Actually I was testing just how good uncharged Calibur is. Turns out the damage is actually pretty good (being about as fast as normal attacks but with more damage per hit) and the cancel timings on it are amazing. You can definitely use it instead of a normal string on Bujin without getting hit. It's 35PP for up to 3 hit combo paid upfront, but with so many counters there should be no problem with the upkeep. As a bonus you can also immediately transition to the charged version if a stun does happen.

I don't really think the main issue is with HP in-balance, although that could be a serious issue once the player-base settles and gradually falls off. For me the problems were within the game loop and combat.

I will admit I had a lot of fun exploring areas, but when I decided to stop exploring and fight enemies it instantly killed the fun for me, due to the long animations that don't weave into your characters momentum (playing Gunner). To me the NGS CBT reminded me of the Super Smash Bros series when Brawl came out where base PSO2 is Smash Bros Melee, in that, NGS lacks the complicated inputs that created pure momentum in combat. What's worse is that they took away a lot of PAs from the current selection of weapons in attempt to make them closer to scion classes, yet they don't really feel like scion classes at all, to me they feel like base classes with less PAs and longer animations, since for some classes many of the new PAs are just slower, flashier versions of the old ones.

I do think SEGA are aiming to gain a more casual audience with NGS, given the style of it and choice to take it open world. It's sad because it would have been 1000 times better if they focused more on making it a fighting game, which is where PSO2 was heading.

Lastly, it's important to remember that when PSO2 JP first released, the meta thing to do was farming MPAs, which felt largely the same as fighting boss enemies on the open field in NGS.

EDIT: My opinion has since changed on the CBT after the second day, I found the urgent quest combat to be very engaging with TMG / Rifle multi weapon (only using rifle weapon action). Then I realized the bulk of interesting content in PSO2 is urgent quests, or quest modes added later down the line, seems like the open map really might just be the exploration quest and story portion of the game, and the materials in the open world might drop in future urgent quests. I hope so anyway.

@Hooonter said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

Using normal attacks between gaps isn't any less skillful than having assured 100% cancellable PA you can use there instead.

Basically, this. Having nothing to do other than normal attack spam between counters definitely sucks, but when the exact same counter move is a primary focal point of combat, other options outside of that move just blend in together and the concern becomes more of variety in button pushing rather than actually analyzing the situation and making real meaningful decisions.

The overly fast enemy thing should be addressed with something like stagger mechanics. Slower classes should be able to create openings via part breaks, status effects or simply getting large amount of damage out at the right time.

There also needs to be a variety of defensive PAs. Counter-based PAs that, say, require prior setup to get to the counter phase or have long downtime after it; PAs that take a long time to execute in general but have guard frames built in at very specific parts of the animation (TD Fighter-style); or, indeed, PAs that raise your defenses to allow some tanking (with some extra tradeoffs, like really high PP cost or something).

@favouriteSoup said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

What's worse is that they took away a lot of PAs from the current selection of weapons in attempt to make them closer to scion classes

idk bet we have seen like 20% of the actual content wich is happening on release (and i am quite sure that one of the devs mentioned somewhere that the actual release will be alot different from the cb experience) so basically we are just playing a demo version of the game - wich makes me believe that we will have more PAs available at the actual release (and weapons like launcher)

I think the major problem for those that had troubles with bujin and the likes is ...preparation and levels. The first time I was using a hunter lvl 7 with a 1* +12 weap with might and stamina I. I literally took enough time that the healing "plants" (for lack of a better comparison) respawned twice and I was still not done. The next time I went there with a Fighter lvl 10 with a 3* (that i got lucky as a drop) +12 with the same Aug (didn't have enough of them to use higher one's for fear of failing it.... pso2 Docet ...God ...I hate him...you know who is ....lol) and while it was not a breeze was quite a lot faster...every mob and boss was. Mind you I tried every class except Tech and got most of them to at least lvl 7-8 and I feel Fighter was quite stronger than most (and I actually got him at almost lvl 12) and it became more enjoyable (not as boring/PITA as before). When we get every weapon, armor, skill and so on it won't be as hard. Aside from that (and a couple of things like markers disappearing or being totally absent and a few other things that are more QoL than anything) I actually liked every minute of it. Hell, I almost hated Fighter in PSO2, where I had to get him to lvl 75 for the 2nd class thing, where my Main was Gunner, while I actually liked it the most in NGS of all the classes I tried. I'll be waiting for NGS for sure (and a CBT2 if they ever do it and I can join in).

@JuggernautGTX Oh yeah for sure. I will be back here for the actual release. Hopefully it gets better.

@Matt said in Serious concerns about the future of NGS:

For example as Hunter, the 3rd PA (which you hold and do slow strikes) shouldn't be cancellable during the attacks as it requires a commitment for its strong damage, but the other 2 weaker PAs should be (the Rising Edge and Nova Strike ripoffs), however they simply are not.

Hunter PAs have guard frames the moment you release them, and all of hunter PAs are easier to cancel with the guard than with the dodge.

Ra counter needs to be exempted from the critical distance mechanic if it isn't already. It's stupidly difficult to stay there because the step itself takes you almost, if not entirely, through your critical distance threshold, then the counter itself also flings you a large distance. You end up having to move your step->counter in either a sharp V-shape or going horizontally and then backtracking it if you want to stay in front of the boss. The latter is fine for the attacks it suits, but a sharp V is difficult to do on KB+M without dropping lock. That's not even accounting for the fact that the boss is probably lunging all over the place, making it even more difficult to predict where you need to angle to end up in the right spot at the end where the shot comes out.

As far as i can see, everything is scaling rather appropriate.

I could kill most Vets within 2-5 minutes by myself, did the UQ in 11 mins solo and cocoons within time. At the very least, if you don't want to you don't have to play with anyone, and for the most part it will be easier.

In terms of combat. It's fine. I never thought PSO2 needed a huge upgrade or engine switch all the problems i had with it was with the lack of commitment to making interesting quests / scenarios. Considering this probably wont change and everything will mostly be gravitating towards zerg type fights, I will probably be sad that PSO2 had to die for this.

But it depends of course where they go from here, as i see it, no matter if it is PSO2 or NGS, it will still have the same developer who loves to cut corners and toss us into guruguru quests with no real thought put into it. I'd be more hyped if the game was picked up by a different developer, rather than recieving a new game from the same developers.

I'll keep my expectations moderate.