Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update

I have an i7 930 cpu, which is quite old but can still run all AAA games on high setting perfectly fine. But if I have to buy a new cpu rn, I'd have to upgrade my entire rig along with it due to compatibility. It is insane to force players to do that just to be able to open the game even though their hardware are capable of running it on max setting. This isn't a new console we are talking about, it's an entire high-end PC, minus the VGA card, just to play 1 game.

Not even NGS version, the base PSO2 version with the new graphical update also gonna require AVX. So I'd get locked out of a game that I can run at max setting now.

Please reconsider this decision, because I'm not gonna buy a new PC during this pandemic time, just for an MMO that is not even on AAA graphic level.

The problem is the technology used in the new engine REQUIRES AVX and it is already complete. There is no alternative. It is mostly an instruction set for faster and more precise calculations, which help lower strains on the hardware across the board. Not having AVX for modern games is NOT really a good thing in the long run.

The alternative is adding support for non-AVX CPUs with day-1 patch, which was what Ubisoft did with their games after the backlash from their community.

The game is already niche as it is, the graphic is also mediocre when compared to other AAA games on the market, yet you limit the playerbase even further by straight up blocking people with old hardware out of the game. And I'm not talking about low-end ancient junkyard hardware, I'm talking about old hardware that are capable of running the game on max settings, with a reshade filter on top, had it been supported by the dev.

Had the entire PC gaming market also require AVX then I wouldn't complain & just suck it up & upgrade my rig. But it just doesn't make sense to spend that among of money for a single game which isn't even that heavy. I know that at this point it's not gonna happen, so I'm just gonna let them know that they've lost a customer who is still interested in their game, who is still playing the current version, just because they're too lazy to optimize their games the same way almost every other pc game developers in the world are still doing.

Good luck with your new technology. All of my hype for this game is completely dead so I'll just stick to other MMOs instead.

@Ragnawind I don't know if i have support for it, but if not, then PSO2 might as well not exist anymore. Then the developers have to pay for their dumb decisions. No skin off my back.

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How much does NGS rely on AVX? That is the big question there. While some games may be able to get around it, it really depends on how things are coded.

Though I do question how many people this locks out. AVX has been standard on CPU's since 2011, so essentially a decade now. Intel included it starting with Sandy Bridge; AMD included it starting with Bulldozer. On the steam hardware surveys, I saw AVX having a 94.77%.

Personally, I am kind of on the fence on the whole hardware thing. Like yeah it does suck to get locked out due to hardware, but at the same time, catering to hardware that is more than a decade old is a bit worrisome. I still remember how much FFXIV was limited by when it had PS3 support. At a certain point, you do have to kind of put a cut off for old hardware. I just don't like the idea of games being held back by CPU's that are a decade or more old.

@Archetype-Luna said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

How much does NGS rely on AVX? That is the big question there. While some games may be able to get around it, it really depends on how things are coded.

Though I do question how many people this locks out. AVX has been standard on CPU's since 2011, so essentially a decade now. Intel included it starting with Sandy Bridge; AMD included it starting with Bulldozer. On the steam hardware surveys, I saw AVX having a 94.77%.

Personally, I am kind of on the fence on the whole hardware thing. Like yeah it does suck to get locked out due to hardware, but at the same time, catering to hardware that is more than a decade old is a bit worrisome. I still remember how much FFXIV was limited by when it had PS3 support. At a certain point, you do have to kind of put a cut off for old hardware. I just don't like the idea of games being held back by CPU's that are a decade or more old.

This right here. I know people are still recovering from a global health, and by extension, financial crisis, but at some point you have to upgrade your hardware to keep up with modern games. And even future games will begin adding newer and more expensive requirements, and it's something I feel people should be preparing for as technology continues to move forward.

@Anarchy-Marine Am i willing to buy something new to improve my hardware? Sure, but not just for this single game.

@Yggranya Well, it would improve all of your games and your computer overall. It would also be for future games as well. Given the steam hardware survey, the majority have CPU's with AVX. So if a future game needs it, then it is less likely for it to support CPU's more than a decade old.

You also would be getting a massive performance increase. The i7 930 is only a 4 core 8 thread if memory serves. That is currently considered the absolute bare minimum for gaming at the moment and significant benefits have been seen from having 6 cores 12 threads, which is now considered the sweetspot for gaming. A CPU that old must also mean you are using DDR3 RAM and a very old motherboard that supports it.

The upgrade wouldn't be just for one game. There is a very much noticable improvement from just basic computer usage if upgraded to more current hardware.

I really do not believe it is in anyone's best interest to support hardware that is more than a decade old.

The bare minimum is base PSO2 shouldn't require AVX. It hasn't for 8 years and there's nothing visually in the new engine for base PSO2 that seems to justify the requirement. An i7 930 could plow through PSO2 in 2012, it still probably can. Especially in DX11 if their threading is better as having previously owned a 950 singled threaded DX9 programs suffer performance wise. (IE: FFXIV's DX9 client)

OR, you know. Support a version of the old client still that doesn't let you switch freely between NGS/Base PSO2 that doesn't require AVX and still runs on DX9. (While you can still load up the new client and switch if needed)

@BONKERS said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

The bare minimum is base PSO2 shouldn't require AVX. It hasn't for 8 years and there's nothing visually in the new engine for base PSO2 that seems to justify the requirement. An i7 930 could plow through PSO2 in 2012, it still probably can. Especially in DX11 if their threading is better as having previously owned a 950 singled threaded DX9 programs suffer performance wise. (IE: FFXIV's DX9 client)

OR, you know. Support a version of the old client still that doesn't let you switch freely between NGS/Base PSO2 that doesn't require AVX and still runs on DX9. (While you can still load up the new client and switch if needed)

CPU has NOTHING to do with Graphics. It is more about calculations and timing. The GPU is what matters for the graphics. The CPU can aid in calculations required for the GPU's graphics rendering though. The additional instruction sets also help speed it up and make things happen more smoothly behind the scenes in the operation of the computer.

@Archetype-Luna said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

@Yggranya Well, it would improve all of your games and your computer overall. It would also be for future games as well. Given the steam hardware survey, the majority have CPU's with AVX. So if a future game needs it, then it is less likely for it to support CPU's more than a decade old.

You also would be getting a massive performance increase. The i7 930 is only a 4 core 8 thread if memory serves. That is currently considered the absolute bare minimum for gaming at the moment and significant benefits have been seen from having 6 cores 12 threads, which is now considered the sweetspot for gaming. A CPU that old must also mean you are using DDR3 RAM and a very old motherboard that supports it.

The upgrade wouldn't be just for one game. There is a very much noticable improvement from just basic computer usage if upgraded to more current hardware.

I really do not believe it is in anyone's best interest to support hardware that is more than a decade old.

If i haven't needed it to play games yet, why should i care? It isn't free, no other game has needed it (as far as i know), so NGS requiring it simply means i'll quit until other games require it. You are free to buy things to play a single game, but i'm in no rush.

@Yggranya Game creators have only ever held back on higher end needs based on what consoles can or can't do. With the current Gen PS5 and Xbox series consoles, your looking at a heavy advancement in what newer games will require going forward. NGS won't be the last game to begin shifting focus away from older hardware, and pushing the limits of what they can get away with now. PC players that can't upgrade have had to save up until they could to play higher end games. It happens all the time as as each jump in hardware does, because it's a selling point across the board. Better graphics, better frame rates, better overall performance, these are just game related, and go hand in hand with hardware sales. For a few years I couldn't even afford a base Xbox One while all my friends could, so I quietly stuck with my 360 until I could afford to at the end of 2015. It was a few years of not talking to my friends, and frankly it didn't bother me because my older games had replay value.

Sorry, but that's just the way things work. You can't afford to buy something, nobody is forcing you to, and in fact financially speaking it's not wise to. At the same time you can't expect large corporations and players enmasse, who can afford the upgrade, to be held back by what you lack. If you can afford it, but pinney pinch, well that's on you. Your choice, and again that's just something you are going to have to deal with. Hold off until what you need is on sale, or just stash money away if you can afford to. Those are your only options. Even older model Xbox Ones meet the requirements here.

@Yggranya said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

If i haven't needed it to play games yet, why should i care? It isn't free, no other game has needed it (as far as i know), so NGS requiring it simply means i'll quit until other games require it. You are free to buy things to play a single game, but i'm in no rush.

The fallacy in that is you can say that you haven't needed to do it until the moment you actually do need to do it. If 5 years later and you are still running an i7 930 and a new game requires AVX, you could say then, you haven't needed to upgrade yet. You should never base it on whether you needed to upgrade yet or not; it's a flawed way of thinking as you can always say you haven't needed to upgrade yet until you actually do need to upgrade.

Everything has a limit, and how long developers can and should support older hardware, in this case non-AVX CPU's, is probably now since AVX is a decade old by this point. Nothing lasts forever and your current CPU has lasted for a decade. Especially when the steam hardware survey shows the vast majority having a CPU with AVX, and Steam is likely big enough to be considered an accurate microecosystem of the entire whole.

@Archetype-Luna said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

@Yggranya said in Please remove AVX requirement from NGS update:

If i haven't needed it to play games yet, why should i care? It isn't free, no other game has needed it (as far as i know), so NGS requiring it simply means i'll quit until other games require it. You are free to buy things to play a single game, but i'm in no rush.

The fallacy in that is you can say that you haven't needed to do it until the moment you actually do need to do it. If 5 years later and you are still running an i7 930 and a new game requires AVX, you could say then, you haven't needed to upgrade yet. You should never base it on whether you needed to upgrade yet or not; it's a flawed way of thinking as you can always say you haven't needed to upgrade yet until you actually do need to upgrade.

Everything has a limit, and how long developers can and should support older hardware, in this case non-AVX CPU's, is probably now since AVX is a decade old by this point. Nothing lasts forever and your current CPU has lasted for a decade. Especially when the steam hardware survey shows the vast majority having a CPU with AVX, and Steam is likely big enough to be considered an accurate microecosystem of the entire whole.

How is that a "fallacy"? It's true. Whatever example you have might be relevant, but it isn't relevant to me since i'll just buy it when it gets too egregious to ignore. As i said, until it is required, you can freely play NGS. I won't. What's so hard to understand about it and why do you two feel like pointing out the obvious multiple times? There is no argument here.