CBT - MS Store exclusive.

@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

not Win 10 ≠ Win 7

Win10 is the only PC OS that is listed in PSO2's system requirements, any other OS is not guaranteed to work and SEGA has no obligation of supporting said systems for the beta.

@Ezodagrom said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Win10 is the only PC OS that is listed in PSO2's system requirements, any other OS is not guaranteed to work and SEGA has no obligation of supporting said systems for the beta.

"Not supporting something" and "going out of your way to exclude something" are two different things. Nobody would have an issue if it was just the former.

@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

"Not supporting something" and "going out of your way to exclude something" are two different things. Nobody would have an issue if it was just the former.

And as I said before, this is a limited beta, it's not a demo, it should be obvious that they're gonna attempt to exclude elements that aren't supported (though, the first come first served type of invitation is extremely dumb, it should have been a lottery type of invitation and personally I think they should also exclude systems that are below the minimum requirements as well).

@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

That wasn't me making up a quote so what are you talking about?

I get it. The quotation marks were not a claim that I said the text, but that you think the logic compares. In which case all I need do is disagree, which is convenient because I do.

Your "same logic" has obvious differences I already pointed out in my previous post (NGS PC players will already have a PC capable of running Windows 10) and as @Ezodagrom helpfully points out PSO2 Global has always had Windows 10 listed as a minimum requirement (though it is not supported, I know it does work on Steam on Windows 7 thanks to a friend who has already finished getting a Windows 10 machine ready for signup) so this is nothing new anyway.


@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I believe every PC that could play New Genesis or its beta can run Windows 10 which has almost always been available for free by one means or another

So it's basically "just hope that you can get it for free". Now buying it for cheap for those who really want to is also an option but the same thing can be said about a PC that meets the minimum requirements.

I don't see how this is a sensible point. PC players need a PC capable of running New Genesis in the first place, so there's no additional expense for the beta.


@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I would hope so, the fact that they make the CBT "first come first served" means that the casuals (which usually make up the vast majority of the playerbase in any given game) won't be able to participate

I must have missed the casual-gating system they had in place that stops players with some arbitrary casual identification from being able to sign up. 😕

Though I do agree with your later point - and have previously noted it myself - that this setup will skew feedback towards people who were prepared and eager enough to be present as soon as signups open.


@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

@Ezodagrom said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Windows 7 has reached end of life status

not Win 10 ≠ Win 7

What other options are there? Vista may be newer than 7 (no it's not, Mira's a dumbass) but it was deeply unpopular and was end-of-lifed years before 7. Windows 8 was even more unpopular, its mainstream support ended in 2018, and the same Steam survey stats show it is even less used than 7.

@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

What other options are there? Vista may be newer than 7 but it was deeply unpopular and was end-of-lifed years before 7. Windows 8 was even more unpopular, its mainstream support ended in 2018, and the same Steam survey stats show it is even less used than 7.

Vista is older than 7 actually. ^^;

@Ezodagrom said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Vista is older than 7 actually. ^^;

Yep, absolutely right. Total memory failure on my part there. Vista was their first stab at moving away from XP, and 7 was the take 2 that did it right.

@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Your "same logic" has obvious differences I already pointed out in my previous post (NGS PC players will already have a PC capable of running Windows 10) and as @Ezodagrom helpfully points out PSO2 Global has always had Windows 10 listed as a minimum requirement (though it is not supported, I know it does work on Steam on Windows 7 thanks to a friend who has already finished getting a Windows 10 machine ready for signup) so this is nothing new anyway.

Not really, the basis of your argument was "the number of people affected by it" to which whether or not something is supported is completely beside the point. If "it's not supported" is a valid reason to be dismissive then I guess XBOX players being left out wouldn't be a problem either because they decided to not support it for the CBT so no issue here.


@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I don't see how this is a sensible point. PC players need a PC capable of running New Genesis in the first place, so there's no additional expense for the beta.

Having a "PC capable of running NGS" doesn't magically make Win 10 appear out of nowhere so yes one would have the expanse of buying it if necessary. Whether or not you think that this is a "big deal" is a diferent question.


@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I must have missed the casual-gating system they had in place that stops players with some arbitrary casual identification from being able to sign up.

Casuals don't camp the registration page and "spam F5" to get in so yes, this is going to be pretty effective in filtering them out.

I can understand the idea of trying to limit focus to a controlled environment for data/feedback, after all that's really the whole point of a closed beta. I can even understand incentivizing one platform over another as business IS involved in this, thus it only makes sense for any involved to want that little extra for themselves. But as I stated, the core issue lies in what would already be limited-by-selection now being compounded with invalidation-by-choice, a consumer choice borne out of necessity at the time - and let's not be coy about the now-infamous issues with the Win 10 launch, and the severe demand for an alternative.

In the end, things will go as they may, and Sega - as a business - will protect their bottom line. But they have to know the cost of that may be the satisfaction of their intended market, and as it stands, there doesn't seem to be much satisfaction in any kind of "favored" platform where multiple options exist, and I say that AS someone who's been playing the Win 10 version all this time. Far be it for me to cast doubt or suspicion where it need not be, but it potentially could create a very bad precedent, and if people don't voice their disapproval now, they won't have that chance later.

@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Your "same logic" has obvious differences [snip]

Not really, the basis of your argument was "the number of people affected by it"

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was an attempted paraphrase; it is obviously not a quote and this is the first time the word "number" has been used in the topic.

I'll also give you a real quote from the same post you originally responded to, with emphasis: "I do believe anyone who really wants to get it working can." This loses a bit of context but to try and clarify the logic for you it means anyone who has a PC that can run the beta in the first place should not be prevented from doing so by the Microsoft Store (and therefore Windows 10) requirement to sign up for it.

To help support that point, I've done a bit of quick research: None of the system requirements for Windows 10 are higher than their respective requirements for New Genesis where both exist. You're invited to check that for yourself: Windows 10 and New Genesis. So there is no PC out there that could run the beta but not run Windows 10; if there had been, such a PC could have conceivably been able to play the beta via Windows 7 if it had been made available on Steam too, but we can safely rule this out.

What other possibilities are there? The only two that come to mind are:

  • That someone is using a PC that is capable of running Windows 10 but has an earlier version (most likely 7 going by survey stats) installed instead. I know a few years ago there was a sizeable group that refused to update citing a few disadvantages of 10 (I think I heard about the forced update behaviour most of all?) but that is a choice; they are certainly capable of updating to 10 in a way that PC users last year clearly did not have to access the PSO2 beta periods. Which leaves the question of cost; Windows 10 had a highly-promoted campaign to update from 7/8 for free for a time a few years ago. Though that officially ended, it's seemingly worked the whole time since.

  • That someone is somehow hard prevented from using the Microsoft Store while they can use Steam. For instance if there is some kind of region lock. I know when PSO2 first landed on Steam all countries that could play the game on Steam could also do so on the Microsoft Store (actually more on the Microsoft Store for a short time, as whoever set it up on Steam hadn't realised that some territories were separated and didn't enable them), but maybe this has changed since. If so Microsoft Store itself would also have needed to have changed because the last I saw switching region on it was really easy (which is the biggest advantage it has over both Steam end EGS in my opinion).

TLDR I'm not talking about the Microsoft Store requirement being acceptable to me because of minority impact (a concept I've historically opposed). I'm okay with it because unless I encounter a good example to the contrary* I'm convinced the only people who could possibly be affected by the Microsoft Store limitation are those that are choosing to be. Or if you want to word that in numbers, that the number of PC players who'd want to and could participate in the beta but are hard prevented from doing so against their will by the Microsoft Store requirement is precisely zero.

* And if this happens my view on the matter will update accordingly!


@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

@Miraglyth said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I don't see how this is a sensible point. PC players need a PC capable of running New Genesis in the first place, so there's no additional expense for the beta.

Having a "PC capable of running NGS" doesn't magically make Win 10 appear out of nowhere so yes one would have the expanse of buying it if necessary. Whether or not you think that this is a "big deal" is a diferent question.

Same link as above.


@Ryoga said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

Casuals don't camp the registration page and "spam F5" to get in

I mean... I just don't think sitting at a desk at a certain time of a certain day, that you knew a week in advance, once, is a particularly galling test of hardcore-ness?

We don't know how long the first-come-first-serve vacancies will last, or how many there will be in the first place. It could be that users who sign up 12 hours after the start still get in, which would really make it difficult to consider non-casual as it would even eliminate the biggest challenge facing some American players (that it is in the middle of a working day they may not be able to use time off for if they're not working from home).

Meh I will skip the beta then. Wonder how long Steam and EGS players will have to wait for the actual release of the game. I bet they release it a month after Windows Store because Microsoft are pure evil.

@Ki-Rin said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

I bet they release it a month after Windows Store because Microsoft are pure evil.

That sounds like a daft bet. Since PSO2 and NGS will use the same game client it would require them to either add parametrically-driven content locks to the client (the how the game only gives you Xbox-based features if it is run with the Microsoft Store flag, only on a much larger scale) or to create two separate clients entirely (for Microsoft Store and the other two), on Global only, for a limited time, which sounds like far more trouble than it'd possibly be worth.

You underestimate the evil of Microsoft.

@Miraglyth Note that at least on JP it will be possible to have only one of the games installed (only PSO2 installed or only NGS, basically the options for the uninstalled version in the block select list would not be accessible), so technically it wouldn't be impossible to launch NGS first in a specific platform, but, I really don't think they're gonna do platform exclusivity for the release.

@Ezodagrom said in CBT - MS Store exclusive.:

@Miraglyth Note that at least on JP it will be possible to have only one of the games installed (only PSO2 installed or only NGS, basically the options for the uninstalled version in the block select list would not be accessible)

Curious. I wonder how that'd work. It would be strange if it was managed through the launcher, considering they just took update management off the launcher on Steam and EGS at least to let those ecosystems handle update delivery. Steam at least can do multiple branches (I don't think EGS or Microsoft Store can?) but they'd probably want to centralise it back onto the launcher again?

@Miraglyth Yeah, I really dunno how they'll handle this in the western platforms, it's possible that we won't even have this option and both games will be forced to be installed?