Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard: Nerf the loot or no?

EDIT: Note that after about 15 posts I chose to change the title from being specifically about inflation to being just general loot, as I think the storage issue for some players is more of a concern than the inflation.

I apologize for the "second post" but I wanted a more targetted discussion to discuss this, so it's more clear where people can voice their opinions.

Obviously people know about Cradle of Darkness UH, and more people are finding out about the meseta gains from the quest thanks to Excube -> Grinders -> Meseta. As a result, a lot of concern has come up about the inflation effects on the market due to inadvertently injecting raw meseta into the game, causing things like fashion to spike in price. In-game materials for creating 15* weapons aren't nearly as affected since they can come from the same places or can be target farmed with far less people elsewhere, but could still take a hit. Others have voiced concerns with storage as well, which while the massive amount of loot is fun, it's not so fun sorting through it after getting a bunch of PSE bursts. It's also EXTREMELY hard to loot a capsule if one drops due to there not being an autoloot for capsules, which could potentially lead to a rare capsule being lost due to hitting a cap on loot that is on the ground.

So the question really is, does Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard deserve to be changed, and why/how?

Personally, I think Cradle of Darkness should be nerfed by removing PSE Bursts from being possible. The returns per trigger would still be VERY worth it for the Alliance Points and time spent, but less impactful on the economy due to slowing down the excube gains per amount of time and per trigger. On top, it's not as painful to run for the people with low amounts of storage, solving two issues at once. Lastly, it means you don't have to worry nearly as much about something like Add S7: Rainbow Adept dropping and either missing it or not being able to pick it up before it disappears due to the loot cap. It also prevents my ears from bleeding for minutes whenever a PSE burst happens

This would bring Cradle's rewards much closer to being in line with Drawn to Darkness as well.

I will also mention that I think everything else that drops from the quest is totally fine. Camos, Guardian Soul materials, S-Grade Augment capsules are all non-issues to have dropping, imo.

EDIT: One last thing that I will mention is a comparison to Elder farm, which was nerfed into the ground. Elder was an issue because it was possible to make fully automated and far too easy, and also didn't even require a high level. All it would have taken is a few people automating it on a ton of clients to destroy the economy. Cradle UH isn't accessible as easily, but I think it's giving far too much for the investment (both in terms of time and resources). I don't want Cradle UH to be nerfed into the ground as a result, and honestly I feel like removing the PSE bursts would just be an overall good change which keeps the reward there.

I'm also still very on the fence about this, which is why I made the topic, though I'm leaning more and more towards removing the PSE bursts to be the correct move.

If it isn't needed in JP then it won't be nerfed here. We follow their patches so if you want updates follow their feed.

As for the question of deserving. It's meant as a last minute help for end game pso2. This game has been out for awhile and NGS is around the corner with no more real content updates for pso2. I don't think it should be nerfed because it's doing its job. Getting people caught up before their next game.

We're only getting 6 scheduled runs of it in 3 weeks. I'm still thinking they may have limited that due to knowing how excessively meseta-rewarding it is on JP but forgot about the AP shop.

Does it deserve to be nerfed? I'm on the fence. There are barriers like the storage requirement and needing to be in a big alliance with AP to spare for triggers. On the other hand it feels a little unfair that this is particularly severe in how it favours big alliances over casual ones whereas the Elder farm method was quickly disabled and eventually adjusted despite being less rewarding and equally accessible to all via Rising Weapons Badge 1 and Meseta +x% boosters that everyone has practically infinite amounts of. So from that perspective consistency would demand it gets changed.

What to change is awkward though. Adjusting the sale price of Grinders or any of the conversions involved would feel like it's pulling up the ladder from everyone who didn't get in on this quickly enough. It feels silly to think two people who once had 8,000+ EX-Cubes could be significantly divided for wealth simply by which one of them converted 6,000 of them to Grinders to NPC for 72m meseta before a Grinder exchange was disabled.

I'd consider reducing the sheer drop rate of 13★ and 14★ weapons, to be honest. It's making the quest and storage management painful for people whether they're farming for money or one of the other reasons to farm Cradle UH (such as SGA Add items or 8s units which themselves are not a money issue). And even if the drop rate was half of what it presently was it'd still be seen as one of the most lucrative money sources in the game right now, so it's not like it'd change player behaviour; it'd just reduce the divide between people who are doing it and people who aren't.

@Zeke said in Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard: Nerf due to inflation or no?:

If it isn't needed in JP then it won't be nerfed here. We follow their patches

Wasn't the Elder Normal meseta nerf something led by Global? Admittedly that may be different since I'm not sure JP got permanent triggers in the same way, but it shows now Global is substantively caught up our feedback is taken too.

Previous topics have described inflation on JP from Cradle UH. If JP players are giving similar feedback too, it'd mean Sega were getting the same feedback from both servers which would make for a more compelling argument to change it.

@Zeke The issue is that the inflation could hurt newer players or average players trying to reach exactly that. More meseta entering the game just causes prices to go up, which can result in people who are newer or average to suffer while trying to get end-game gear. If you want to help them reach end-game, it needs to be through the raw materials, not meseta. Granted, this can be argued that it gives raw materials (desynth instead of cube for 14* weapons) but the other things such as rare S-Grades, Modules, etc. are affected as well simply because people have more meseta to spend.

This issue has caused inflation on JP too. One example is the PR Pose 5 emote which spiked from like 2b to 4.7b last I checked, and it continues to rise (it is not an AC scratch emote, it's an emote that is only obtained through buying real life merchandise). On top, JP has a 50k Alliance Point weekly cap, AND 13* unit cubing. They have even more access to triggers than we do. I'd argue this is even more of an issue over there, and I know there are plenty of JP players talking about the same exact issue.

JP don't have trigger shop, only triggers outside of alliance shop are the solo PD and Mother+Deus - else you spend SG to buy specific triggers on rotation.

I was interested to see what Cradle would do to the affix market especially it is boost week this week on JP. But alas, affix has been disabled since the beginning of boost week, and 24hr later - instead of having the issue fixed, SEGA rubbed salt on the wound and disabled player shops too now. Can't even see how inflation is affecting other things... though the NGS lobby actions from Oracle Renew Collection 2 went from like 150mil -> 210mil before they disabled playershop.

To me these two missions look like they were released as some form of end point as NGS should be out soon. It makes even more sense in the Japanese server where it drops medals too (including Buster medals like candy!) which we don't get.

@HarmlessSyan said in Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard: Nerf due to inflation or no?:

JP don't have trigger shop, only triggers outside of alliance shop are the solo PD and Mother+Deus.

These triggers are from alliance anyways. JP has that, and they have a 50k point limit per week gained per player whereas global is still on the 4.5k max per member still. Buying all 10 triggers weekly is basically a non-issue for them.

@Theuberclips more of talking about the Elder issue

@HarmlessSyan Ah, I see now. Yeah I suspect Elder isn't even nerfed on JP, haven't checked though.

The trigger shop made it a massive issue on Global. Imagine how nasty things could have gotten if someone ran a bot farm on that. That 100% warranted a nerf, considering it wasn't only easy, but a player could go from new -> farming elder so quickly that it posed issues for the future. Cradle I'm still on the fence about, which is why I wanted a discussion.

the prices will be inflated regardless having those UQ or not it is bound to happen when the cosmetics from the new graphic engine comes, so injecting more money just speed up the process but we will end up seeing happening anyway even more when is the end cycle of the game

@Jamesmor said in Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard: Nerf due to inflation or no?:

the prices will be inflated regardless having those UQ or not

How so? If the money supply doesn't increase, where does the extra money come from?

@Theuberclips said in Cradle of Darkness Ultra Hard: Nerf due to inflation or no?:

So the question really is, does this deserve to be nerfed, and how?


Personally, I think it should be nerfed by removing PSE Bursts from Cradle of Darkness. The returns per trigger would still be very worth it for the Alliance Points and time spent, but it's nowhere near as impactful on the economy if PSE bursts aren't a factor.

The drops are still insane even without getting a burst. Most triggers don't result in a burst.

I will also mention that I think everything else that drops from the quest is totally fine. Camos, Guardian Soul materials, S-Grade Augment capsules are all non-issues to have dropping, imo.

If anything, the drop rate feels rather low for the crafting success rates we're being put through.

So, here's my opinion on UH Cradle. How does this affect the game?

In terms of actual gameplay experience, it is a colossal improvement. Grinding for plam/emerard was awful beforehand. Do we need to get this much plam/emerard to fix that? Probably not, but I'd rather overkill than eternal grind. Guardian soul crafting, while still incredibly painful, no longer has as long a process to go through just to attempt it. Additionally, the massive amount of excubes you can obtain allow you to buy EXP minis, PA discs, affix success chance, etc...

In terms of the economy? Meseta was already worthless. The prices for mildly popular cosmetics and very in-demand items are already rather far past what the game lets you earn without already having enough meseta to buy into the market. Meseta becoming more worthless only makes this issue worse, of course, but cutting off the source doesn't fix it. This was always a problem with meseta and the economy in general, and this just happened to speed it up. (Additionally, many items in the market are actually sold for more value than they are actually worth, thanks to scalping. This is, however, a separate and possibly more complex issue, so I won't go into it further here.)

The answer to this is not to punish the playerbase by destroying a quest's rewards, because this very disproportionately affects the players who were probably actually generating money with those excubes. People don't run it just to ruin the economy with inflation, they run it because they need the money. I personally generated 75m out of thin air with Cradle excubes because I needed that money to make a Klauz weapon. The people who don't need the money may run it as well, but unlike the others, aren't as significantly impacted by inflation as their possessions stay roughly the same value. EDIT: Another strong reason why people do this is because it's much more consistent. Other methods of making money involving the market get worse as more people join in on them.

In my opinion, the solution to this problem is to first make meseta not worthless, and then tone down the potential meseta generation slightly afterward. The only way to do that is to, of course, start draining meseta from the economy. At current, the existing meseta sinks in the game fail miserably at this goal. The most notable one - affixing - is almost entirely only done on weeks where it costs nothing to do! The other major sink is market taxes, which also clearly aren't sufficient.

Of course, they aren't going to make any new meseta sinks, and the reason they made this quest in the first place is the same reason they wont. We can only hope they get that figured out in NGS. But, what can we do now?

First, I think a rather agreeable change would be to reduce the amount of triggers that can be purchased every week from 10 to 1. That is still a huge amount of triggers, and doesn't seem like it would cause a significant impact to players that need it, because there are still many public triggers being run.

Second, the drop rate in this quest for 13* and 14* weapons in particular is absurdly high. I know i previously said this was a good thing, but a slight nerf to the droprates would reduce the excubes flooding the game noticeably without causing too much of an impact on players that need it.

Additionally, removing PSE bursts may not actually be that bad of an idea. As I said previously, the quest is still insane even without them, and a good burst can increase the drops by almost ten times or more. However, this approach seems unlikely to be taken.

It's not all bad. I'm also converting 14*s to create two more Liberate weapons, but the guaranteed cash flow is very nice.

@LusterMain I do agree there's an issue with meseta sinks not existing. And yeah, this quest is still really damn good without a PSE burst. PSE Bursts just cause problems that compound onto each other: More value per trigger, more time spent running the trigger, more time spent sorting loot. All of which means you're closer to sustaining the trigger costs per week, and are spending less time farming other things that could help put other needed materials into the market such as Modules.

Consistent meseta methods are fine for sure. That's why I'm not advocating for it to be nerfed into the ground. I certainly did similar for meseta in the past.

Perhaps I should change the title to "should the loot be nerfed or not" because honestly, I think the storage issue is much worse than the inflation issue.

Because they removed alot of the meseta sinks for global.

The enhancement cost 0 isn't all that common on JP server, this boost week on JP was like the first time I been in that was sync'd up with enhance boost week. (and affixing is disabled since the beginning of boost week....)

There is also no weapon exp mini. On JP especially before EP6 where collection folders didn't give fodders, you had to feed your weapon slowly with 10*+5 weapons or enhancing a 12* to +26 and use it to enhance your weapon if you were short on lambda grinder. Feeding a 10 star to like a high rarity weapon is like 16k per weapon? and still like 10k to 12*.