How do you play techer?

Both Auras are usefull as i already explained in my posts.

Your first post's points about aura were countered in my first post that those are quite unnecessary and all you explained to that was a vague "others can use different rings" which is also a bad suggestion like I explained later, so yea, you didn't explain it well enough.

Also i get the feeling you dont even have full knowledge about Techter

Bingo! I'm not a techter player, does that render all my arguments invalid?

So let us just compare the Damage multiplyers shall we?

  • Bouncer: 138% on elemental weakness & 120% on non-elemental weakness on both melee & tech multiplyers (and I don't need to be a techter to tell you how meeting elemental weaknesses becomes a tough task against certain important bosses)

  • Phantom: 167% on melee multiplyer, 156% tech damage multiplyer, not including the damage reduction from tech short charge (tech short charge is in the long run a dps increase as well, besides, phantom sub users focus more on melee attacks instead of techs for damage) I'm not sure about tech short charge reducing the healing effect, I believe it doesn't affect the heal amount at all, I'll have to ask around about it. Regardless, tech short charge gives you more spamability which is hard on pp, so pp management aspect of ph sub is valid. Also, fast tech cast gives you more guard frames from tech charge parry ring.

  • Etoile: 155% melee multiplyer, 178% for the PA, 167% tech damage multiplyer. With the survivability, you can face tank with compound techs: you don't need to look for openings for fear of death, you just go in with compounds as soon as one is available without caring for boss phase or movements.

  • Luster: Without voltage: 170% melee damage multiplyer, 155% tech damage multiplyer. With voltage: 187% melee damage multiplyer, 170% tech damage multiplyer. Also, you cannot use gunblade for dps without Luster sub. Luster sub gives an innate melee and ranged multiplyer to gunblades, the ammount depends on class. I believe techter gets 300% multiplyer? I'm not sure. Regardless, it is good dps and can be used to build up voltage relatively fast (or you could just ilgrants)

So with that damage multiplyer difference, can you still compare the damage of bouncer sub with others? Even if lets say you are always using the correct element for the boss, 138% is pitiable. Others give like.. upto and more than double of that damage with little to no conditions (Etoile needs Perfect Attacks which you should be doing anyways, Phantom needs PP pool)

Also you didnt answer my question. I asked you what other sub classes are GOOD FOR YOUR GROUP and not for you yourself.

As for this part, the only way a subclass can buff the group's damage even more is Ranger sub, which is only used in an organized party and its rendered half useless if another ranger joins your raid. Repeating myself: Most of the classes these days have high crit rates, combine them with techter's shifta and you got near or beyond 100% crit rate. More crit rate than that is only useful if you are using s4 precision balance and the classes that use that already have 150+ crit rate. All classes also have pp management integrated into their mechanics which are much more reliable than meeting elemental weaknesses. If a class doesn't, genons or other pp recovery methods exist which don't need 2 players to recover one's pp.

With that, the only way you can help the raid more is deal damage yourself while zanverse is active and running.

Meeting the Element Weakness is a tough task ? Your weapons Element changes into the element of the last fully loaded Tech you used. If using one Tech is a tough task then i really cant help you.

And no short charge does not increase Techter smdg it only decreases it. Your main damage comes from you Auto Attacks and Techs will always deal less DPS then what you would do by just smaching the enemy. So no Phantom as Sup with short charge descreases the dmg you deal by 30%. So i dont know what you wanna "spam" as Techter unless your group is full of noobs and you cant stop Healing.

Etoils Surviveability is nice and all but with BO i also have over 2000 Def in every stat and with HP Drink and Deban i have around 2700 HP. SO yeah i can face tank very well without using Etoil. So only the little increase in dmg is a pro argument to be honest. Defense in general is useless unless you dont know what you are doing.

Now Luster. I may be true that you can use Gunblades for damage but why would you want that ? Gunblade is inferior compared with the Wand you should use.

So yes i can still compare the damage of Bouncer with the others.

Also i dont kno where you got the number but Bouncer gives: 30% Elemental Weakness (agains weak) 15% when not using weakness 5% When Airborn because of the Shifta Buff 5% Highlevel Bouncer =40% when using weakness and 25% when using non weakness.

So its 140% and 125% and not 138% and 120%

Meeting the Element Weakness is a tough task ? Your weapons Element changes into the element of the last fully loaded Tech you used. If using one Tech is a tough task then i really cant help you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, the weapon element change is ONLY for the Jet Boots, part of the effect from its Focus Gauge which techter has nothing to do with.

And no short charge does not increase Techter smdg it only decreases it. Your main damage comes from you Auto Attacks and Techs will always deal less DPS then what you would do by just smaching the enemy. So no Phantom as Sup with short charge descreases the dmg you deal by 30%. So i dont know what you wanna "spam" as Techter unless your group is full of noobs and you cant stop Healing.

Another little Math for you: The damage done is 70% and charge time is 50%. So in the time where you would cast 1 charged tech, you can cast the same thing twice, so that 70% doubles up as 140% in the same amount of time. If you want to add in animation time, then for every 2 normal tech charge casts, you can cast the same tech 3 times with short charge:

1 + 1 = 2 (for normal charge)

0.7 + 0.7 + 0.7 = 2.1 (for short charge)

This increases linearly if you increase the time and is quite significant. Phantom Rod revolves around this concept, if you think thats DPS decrease than all phantom rod players are stupid lol. Regardless, I did mention that as Phantom sub, you want to do more normal attacks than tech attacks so there's 1 thing we agree on.

Etoils Surviveability is nice and all but with BO i also have over 2000 Def in every stat and with HP Drink and Deban i have around 2700 HP. SO yeah i can face tank very well without using Etoil. So only the little increase in dmg is a pro argument to be honest. Defense in general is useless unless you dont know what you are doing.

Every class should have 2k+ def by now (with deband buff). Maybe even 2.4k or more with klauz set affixed. Also, imagine how much damage increase you could get if you used shifta drink instead (it also sometimes comes with 10% pp cost reduction). Shifta drink works same as a normal, non-techter shifta, raises your atk stats significantly (19.7%), and yea, it stacks with your shifta and alliance tree boost. The Damage increase is not little at all. It is huge.

Now Luster. I may be true that you can use Gunblades for damage but why would you want that ? Gunblade is inferior compared with the Wand you should use.

It can do more damage than wand and you still have access to support techs so its a matter of choice really. Its main use comes for solo purposes, Te/Lu gunblade can do solo content like Sodam or Masquerade Ultimate quest quite nicely.

Also i dont kno where you got the number but Bouncer gives: 30% Elemental Weakness (agains weak) 15% when not using weakness 5% When Airborn because of the Shifta Buff 5% Highlevel Bouncer =40% when using weakness and 25% when using non weakness.

that high level bouncer thingy is something that EVERY subclass has, so no one adds that in the multiplyer count when comparing subclasses.

Also, all the multiplyers are multiplicative, not additive. They are calculated as:

1.2 (elemental stance) * 1.1 (elemental stance up) * 1.05 (Shifta Air attack boost) = 1.386 or 138.6%

For non-weak to element, it is:

1.15 (elemental stance) * 1.05 (Shifta Air attack boost) = 1.2075 or 120.75%

Again, I did not add the high level bouncer skill as that is available in all skill trees. I didn't add them in the multiplyers of scion subclass multiplyers either.

Also, I got all those numbers from the skills from the skill trees that Sega provided in game.

So its 140% and 125% and not 138% and 120%

Those numbers are still significantly lower than other subclass numbers I shared.

There's something I have been holding back on as well since it doesn't agree with your line of thought, but the zanverse damage cast by a techter is considered techter's damage. If there is enough damage, the boss can change aggro to the techter because of zanverse as well.

(Also, yea, memes like this exist)

alt text

The Techter gets the Elemental Change from the Techter Ring.

Also your Math is wrong. As i said before you will ALWAYS deal less damage with Tech compared with your regular Auto attacks. No matter how short your charges are Auto attacking is still faster. So when you can outdamae Auto Attacks with 100% dmg then you wont with 70% because the charge time in the end is irrelevant as long as it is slower then just smasing you mouse button.

And i testet Luster as Sub class today and it indeed increases my DPS by around 260k (Dmg calculation Test). However getting the relevant 500 Voltage and keeping it up is almost impossible in certain fights like Primordial. So the full power of Luster is very.....Lackluster.

And i never said Zanverse does not count as Techter DMG. I stated it is not the Techter doing that damage. I could add another picture into that meme where everyone stops attacking each time Zanverse is cast and they say ." Good luck on that."

@Gilver-Redgrave said in How do you play techer?:

And i testet Luster as Sub class today and it indeed increases my DPS by around 260k (Dmg calculation Test). However getting the relevant 500 Voltage and keeping it up is almost impossible in certain fights like Primordial. So the full power of Luster is very.....Lackluster.

Te/Lu prefers using gunblade. If you were using wand, it's not an entirely accurate representation of Te/Lu's output. Te/Lu gunblade is Techter's best option for "personal" dps. It's the best to the point that Techter's only depth100 run of solo Sodam on youtube (that I could find, at least) is Te/Lu gunblade. Te/Lu, in fact, is one of the best class combinations for playing "old" gunblade (the others being Hu/Lu and Fi/Lu), which, thanks to it's buffs, is no longer significantly lacking in power compared to other weapons. If you want to deal as much personal damage as possible as Techter, Luster subclass is the way to go (it's a bit unfortunate that you wont actually be playing techter weapons, though).

EDIT: I've been shown there's a wand Te/Lu clear of d100 sodam. Of course, it's still sub Lu, so it's still safe to say that Lu is Te's best DPS sub (and yes, it was slower than the gunblade clear, but slightly. changed some wording to reflect this)

I'd just like to add that as long as there's another tech class to cast Zanverse and Shifta/Deband in the MPA, the best use of Techter is always going to be to have a Te come in, buff everyone, leave, switch their class to something that deals more damage, and come back. Which is rather silly. (and thanks to skydance support, this both got much easier and it can be done with Luster if your group is insane enough)

@Gilver-Redgrave said in How do you play techer?:

The Techter gets the Elemental Change from the Techter Ring.

Understandable, but

@Kan said in How do you play techer?:

Those numbers are still significantly lower than other subclass numbers I shared.

Also your Math is wrong. As i said before you will ALWAYS deal less damage with Tech compared with your regular Auto attacks. No matter how short your charges are Auto attacking is still faster. So when you can outdamae Auto Attacks with 100% dmg then you wont with 70%.

Ah I thought you were comparing tech damage normally vs with short charge. In normal attack dmg vs tech damage, yea ofcourse, the damage from normal attacks would win.... Unless you are playing Et sub, in which case tech damage would be much better as Et sub has much larger tech damage multiplyer compared to melee multiplyer.

the charge time in the end is irrelevant as long as it is slower then just smasing you mouse button.

This cannot be more wrong. Charge time is very relevant. Why? Well I already said these a few times but I can type it out again:

  • Short Tech charges make sure that you spend less time doing support techs and more time doing your own damage with normal/dps techs/compound techs.
  • Short Tech charge gives you more guard frame uptime overall.
  • Just comparing tech damage (ignore normals for a moment) short tech charge is a dps increase for techniques as in the same time, you shoot out more techs than without tech short charge. If it wasn't then phantom rod would be a stupid and laughable concept as it would decrease dps and no one wants a decrease dps (yet phantom rod is a powerful class)

However getting the relevant 500 Voltage and keeping it up is almost impossible in certain fights like Primordial. So the full power of Luster is very.....Lackluster.

If you just ignore the voltage, you still have the highest melee damage multiplyer among all the subclasses. It is the best even without 500 voltage. Also, as Te/Lu, you can dedicate some of your time using gunblade which builds voltage much faster and has its own op dps. The tech damage though, is indeed lackluster without 500 volts (but its still much higher than Bo sub)

Also, if you say "increase DPS by 260k" you mean you are dealing 260k more damage each second and an increase of 260k per second is insanely high (unless you meant 260k damage increase in 20 second tally and not DPS increase)

And i never said Zanverse does not count as Techter DMG. I stated it is not the Techter doing that damage. I could add another picture into that meme where everyone stops attacking each time Zanverse is cast and they say ." Good luck on that."

Like @LusterMain already said, gunblade can help bridge that gap :v

The argument i made about Tech short charge being irrelevant was based on the damage because that was what we were talking about.

Also no Etoil wont change anything because Photon Explosion scales with Tec damage. So while you deal less Mel dmg with Etoil you still boost the damage of Photon Explosion you create with Auto attacks.

Also where did you get those numbers :"155% melee multiplyer, 178% for the PA, 167% tech damage multiplyer."

When i look at the Etoil Tree i only see:

  • 150% With Just Attack
  • 165 Without Just Attack
  • Tec 145% (160% with Just Attack)

As you said you dont count the High Level Skill into this so i didnt aswell but even with it your numbers dont add up. Am i missing something ?

Also i meant 260k DPS per 20 seconds not per second. (Rockbear Test)

I'm not sure how well the photonic explosion scales but I do know that this scaling is quite powerful for certain techs & compound techs. Like I said I don't play techter so I would still suggest comparing the damage values between techs & normals with photonic explosions before claiming that.

Regarding the multiplyers, yes you are missing something. In one of my older posts I mentioned how they are calculated: Multiplicatively, not Additively.

So for Techs mulltiplyer: With perfect attack, its not 1.45 + 1.15, its a multiply, that is 1.45 * 1.15 = 1.67 or 167%

Similarly for Melee multiplyer: With perfect attack, its not 1.35 + 1.15, its a multiply, that is 1.35 * 1.15 = 1.55 or 155%

The skill Tech Arts Count Bonus only works for PAs so just for the hammer, it gets additional 1.15 there:

1.35 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 1.78 or 178% on PA only

@Gilver-Redgrave @Kan

As for whether sub Et makes techs or wand smacking better, we can look at frame data.

  • Normal 1: 531 mel + 909 tec = 1440 overall dps
  • Normal 2: 545 mel + 982 tec = 1527 overall dps
  • Normal 3: 600 mel + 989 tec = 1589 overall dps
  • Ilgrants (assuming best possible dps craft): 1449 tec dps

Applying Te's own skills (excluding universal damage ups), we get:

  • Normal 1: 1440 x 1.4 = 2016 dps
  • Normal 2: 1527 x 1.4 = 2138 dps
  • Normal 3: 1589 x 1.4 = 2225 dps
  • Ilgrants: 1449 x 1.2 x 1.2 = 2087 dps

So with a sub that gives universal or mel only damage multipliers, wand smacking comes ahead.

Now let's apply Et's multipliers as well (excluding universal damage ups):

  • Normal 1: (531 x 1.35 + 909 x 1.45) x 1.4 = 2849 dps
  • Normal 2: (545 x 1.35 + 982 x 1.45) x 1.4 = 3024 dps
  • Normal 3: (600 x 1.35 + 989 x 1.45) x 1.4 = 3142 dps
  • Ilgrants: 1449 x 1.2 x 1.2 x 1.45 = 2921 dps

So, even with Et's unequal mel and tec multipliers, wand smacks are still higher dps (although not as significantly so). There are other factors left out, such as elemental weakness and Te's skill that increases damage against elemental weakness. This does not make techniques pull ahead, however, because normal attacks will receive a massive damage bonus (1.6x. in fact, this bonus gets bonuses from elemental weakness and Te's weak skill too!) from weapon element and techniques do not - this would actually make the gap between them bigger (I'd do the math as well, but at this point how game mechanics interact with eachother is confusing and not well documented). Other factors, such as enemy defense, weapon stats, and Wand Reactor cannot be checked this way due to them not being the same universally. However, they likely skew it further in the favor of wand smacks as well.

@LusterMain Awesome! l really needed some data like that

Well as i said Tecs are always weaker.

And its no surprise given the fact that Techters including me have around 2000 more Mel power then Tec. Even if the Multipliers for Tecs are higher the base amount those multipliers work with are 2000 points shorter.

If you have for example 200% Tec power on 4000 Tec then you have 8000. If you have 150% Mel power on 6000 Mel you have 9000.

Focusing on Multipliers alone is one of the biggest mistakes people make when creating their builds. And yes those are real numbers because my TE/BO has 4000Tec and 6000 Mel. So less multiplier is worth more when your base value is higher. More for less is still less.

Sure sure, I was wrong about tech damage possibly being higher on Et sub, regardless you want to be using some niche dps techs like ramegid-0 and grants/gimegid for certain cases where wand normals won't reach the boss anyways.

While multiplyer isn't everything, it certainly makes up the majority of the damage and this cannot justify the use of Bo sub with Te either.

@Gilver-Redgrave @Kan Ramegid-0 isn't actually that niche. It's a huge dps increase for wand smacking. But yes, other techs are great to use when wand smacking fails you.

As for what subclass is best for Te, we can use math and some analysis of their merits as well (excluding HLB, of course)

  • Hu (fury stance): 25% crit rate, 133% damage (176% mel), 75% will (with small mel + on activation), auto-mate, flash guards, and hunter physique. The multipliers are pretty bad if you want to do anything other than wand smack for eternity, but it's got a lot of qol skills.
  • Fi (valiant stance): 25% crit rate, 177% damage, a lot of conditional skills you can't properly use, and adrenaline. Sacrifice all of Hu's qol skills for equalizing tech and mel multipliers.
  • Ra: Eradication bonus. (blight rounds and maybe jellen shot too with allclass rifle) This.... is really bad. Te and Ra have basically zero synergy. Meme combo.
  • Gu: Auto-mate deadline. Please don't sub Gu.
  • Fo: For techniques: 169% (assuming offelement for element conversion), extra 1.44x for ice, fire, lightning, lightning pp save, fire short charge, charge pp revival, and talis skills. It wasn't as horrible as many people insisted it was before sub successors were out. It's still pretty bad though.
  • Br (precision stance): 25% crit rate, 149% damage (this is kinda misleading due to how weapon element works: it will actually be slightly lower for normals), extra 1.35x for normal attacks. It doesn't really offer a whole lot.
  • Bo (elemental stance): 25% crit rate, 139% damage, Elemental PP restorate and critical fields. Sacrifice huge amounts of subclass damage for access to the supportive fields. They aren't really worth it (assuming there isn't a bo in your mpa) because people should easily be able to manage their own PP by now and an extra 30% crit rate for the mpa is going to do basically nothing (the people that need it won't get a significant damage increase thanks to likely not running crit builds, the people running crit builds are already going to have 100% or near 100% critical rate).
  • Su: HP restorate, unstoppable recovery, quick recovery, 145% damage, some other very minor boosts. Not very effective and management is required to even get the power it offers.
  • Ph: 20-60% crit rate, Ph pp restorate, tech short charge. 167% mel damage (assuming 100% crits and maxed streams), 156% tec damage (assuming 100% crits and maxed streams). If sega didn't band-aid fix Te by forcing it's focus gauge at 100% all the time, this would be Te's meta subclass alongside Lu. But they did, so it's really just going to smooth out cast times as a sub.
  • Et: 50% crit rate, stationary physique, et boost, damage bouncer, 155% mel, 167% tec. It's pretty good if you don't want to die.
  • Lu: 170% mel, 155% tec. With high voltage, 187% mel and 171% tec. Halved cooldowns, 25% crit (25% more with techs), 20% damage reduction, automatic shifdeba, eradication restorate, 200% status rate up (this is really amazing where it matters), complete rest+volt reset heal. And that's not all, if you're using a gunblade: 355% mel, 305% rng (and GB can take advantage of lu's pa combo skills as well, so it gets the extra 25% crit techs get and a variable pp cost reduction). And now we see why sub Lu is so busted on Te. It has gigantic damage bonuses and has so many "bonus" skills that actually matter to go along with those. (If you're wondering where those absurd gunblade multipliers came from, it's from the skill "Sub luster gunblade boost". It doesn't tell you the multipliers ingame, but they can be found on wikis. The multiplier varies wildly depending on class, but for Techter it gets 190% mel and 185% rng.)

@LusterMain To be fair TE/FO isnt bad because of the classes but because of the available weapons. Wands dont have the power Rods have and Talis is pretty much the weakest weapon in the game. The whole year PSO2 is out now i dont see any Talis unless its a Hero. If TE had a better Tec Weapon this combo would work.....well maybe NGS.

And the part about the "Sub Luster Gunslash Boost" is good to know because i always wondered what exactly it does. Maybe i go ahead and try TE/LU even tho it wont really be worth it playing TE different now with NGS around the corner.