Final Story Mission Conditions

@Misuran said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Yggranya said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@VanillaLucia Hah! This is the kind of thing you get when the only purpose in designing an encounter is to get the player killed. Like anything like this, the only way to avoid it is to be clairvoyant or to have watched a video or being warned in advance. What amazing "skill"!

It doesn't take being clairvoyant. It just takes slowing down a little and observing when unfamiliar.

Enemies that counter also aren't exactly new prior to that boss.

Similar hit-red-barrier-equals-counter mechanic has been introduced earlier in the same episode on a luminmech mob, where they specifically told you that attacking it while it's up will result in a counter.

Don't bother. There's always bad leechers who blame and flame others. Many tried helping this guy but he keeps being mean to everyone.

Had avoided this topic until after finishing the story, and amusingly I didn't run into any conditions since I'd done all the previous story on Hardcore and S (excepting episode 6 chapter 5 - work in progress on that one). It's interesting to think the game forces you to clear other episodes to get the TFB, but I'm in favour of it considering the roles of the characters involved.


That Shiva attack is... interesting. I'd buy the whole part about "Don't attack the big red shield" if Shiva herself didn't have at least one other big red shield before that attack that doesn't appear to trigger any counter-attack at all. For me that part isn't so much a caution issue as a consistency issue - and while we're at it, perhaps two. None of the last four times we've faced a "boss sitting there charging big orbs of light" phase - Deus Esca Gratia, Dark Falz Persona, Dimolduminus and Magatsu Choopga - were don't-attack phases. They were all damage rushes where "slowing down and observing" would lead to the same kind of instant kill.

Counterpoint this:

@Misuran said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

Similar hit-red-barrier-equals-counter mechanic has been introduced earlier in the same episode on a luminmech mob, where they specifically told you that attacking it while it's up will result in a counter.

This happens during chapter 2: In a cut-in part-way through the second field area, Matoi warns you not to attack a Dizolsaber when it holds up its shield. This takes place during a quest with a few other luminmechs that also deploy red barriers that have no counter-attack mechanic, and before the debuts of both other luminmechs in the story (and on Global even the first appearance of the Armada UQ) that all have red barriers that are purely barriers meant to encourage you to expose or hit the even more red weak points.


As for accidental attacks, there's something worse than mags: Pets. Even after recognising the cue, I had to eat that attack twice more after its first appearance. The first was because I was in the middle of dodging Shiva's other attacks when she started the don't-attack phase so I couldn't stop the pet auto-attacking her. The second was because I tried using the pet's recall PA to get it to stop attacking and that still performed an attack that hit her.

Both of those occurrences felt pretty cheap. Ideally there should have been a short wait after her previous attacks end (not start) to give players a chance to conclude their passive damage after the first cue.

On the other hand, pets possibly offer the greatest way to nope out of the attack once it's been set off. Even if (when) the initial blast kills your pet and even after the time-stop part locks you in place so moving, dodging, healing or blocking the follow-up attack become impossible, you can still change weapon at least with the 1-6 numpad keys. Courtesy of Dia Master, summoners can simply reject the idea of dying to that attack. Despite setting if off 3 times I didn't die once and the high damage tolerance of that quest meant I still got an S rank!

The only other thing I'd note is that it might be a little unfair to have that kind of mechanic at the end of a quest of reasonable length since the act of learning would usually force someone to have to play through the whole quest again when it could have been split out into a field quest and a boss quest in succession. But PSO2 has done tricky bosses after extended field sections before - in particular with Corrupted Lillipa & Anga Phandaj in Episode 3, and the Earth Guide underground, Adam and Deus Esca in Episode 4 - so it'd be a little late to make that complaint now. The former also had a much harsher damage allowance so on the whole I don't mind it with Shiva that much.

@Penguin-Deer said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

The only bs part is mag attacks triggering the barrier. There's always atlas swapping if you do accidentally hit the barrier.

The mag attacks don't trigger the counter, they used to but that was patched.

@ZENCHI said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Misuran said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Yggranya said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@VanillaLucia Hah! This is the kind of thing you get when the only purpose in designing an encounter is to get the player killed. Like anything like this, the only way to avoid it is to be clairvoyant or to have watched a video or being warned in advance. What amazing "skill"!

It doesn't take being clairvoyant. It just takes slowing down a little and observing when unfamiliar.

Enemies that counter also aren't exactly new prior to that boss.

Similar hit-red-barrier-equals-counter mechanic has been introduced earlier in the same episode on a luminmech mob, where they specifically told you that attacking it while it's up will result in a counter.

Don't bother. There's always bad leechers who blame and flame others. Many tried helping this guy but he keeps being mean to everyone.

At that point, you just stop responding to them, as nothing will help, it's similar to one kid i had to ignore who was blaming devs for divide quests conditions when he was likely secretly mad they weren't easily puggable so he could leech off others and wanted them easier. They just attack you and anyone who isn't agreeing with them.

But for the topic yeah she does have a very obvious cue when she starts speaking the lines, so you have plenty of time to back up. though oddly enough matoi will trigger it but she doesn't get one shot. though i SEE the full damage, it's kind of odd.

@Astral-Lettie said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

though oddly enough matoi will trigger it but she doesn't get one shot. though i SEE the full damage, it's kind of odd.

From what I've cared to notice, NPC party members get an enormous amount of HP so they don't just get one-shot all the time in higher-difficulty content which would be even more of an immersion-breaker than their extremely limited usefulness already is. If this is another example of that, Matoi could've just absorbed the full damage and not come close to KO.

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

That Shiva attack is... interesting. I'd buy the whole part about "Don't attack the big red shield" if Shiva herself didn't have at least one other big red shield before that attack that doesn't appear to trigger any counter-attack at all. For me that part isn't so much a caution issue as a consistency issue - and while we're at it, perhaps two. None of the last four times we've faced a "boss sitting there charging big orbs of light" phase - Deus Esca Gratia, Dark Falz Persona, Dimolduminus and Magatsu Choopga - were don't-attack phases. They were all damage rushes where "slowing down and observing" would lead to the same kind of instant kill.

That's why you listen to her callout. PSO2 takes the very old school approach of giving bosses over the top voice lines to announce what they're going to do, which makes them infinitely easier to dodge. The barrier that one shots you is always preceded by her shouting "Is that the best you can do?" before stopping everything she's doing, raising a barrier for a few seconds, then moving onto her next attack.

The abilities also pretty low in her priority list as well. During my fight with her the other night I think she used it all of three times during the course of the fight. She also doesn't charge a ball of light when using it so I'm not really sure what you're talking about there. When she does do the AoE circle you are referring to, you can easily get out of the way and either attack from ranged, or if you're melee, i-frame right as the attack goes off.

Shiva's honestly one of the best designed fights in the game, as all of her attacks have a very clear choreographed call out to them, and all of them can be avoided in their entirety so long as you're not mashing buttons and running around like a lunatic.

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

The only other thing I'd note is that it might be a little unfair to have that kind of mechanic at the end of a quest of reasonable length since the act of learning would usually force someone to have to play through the whole quest again when it could have been split out into a field quest and a boss quest in succession. But PSO2 has done tricky bosses after extended field sections before - in particular with Corrupted Lillipa & Anga Phandaj in Episode 3, and the Earth Guide underground, Adam and Deus Esca in Episode 4 - so it'd be a little late to make that complaint now. The former also had a much harsher damage allowance so on the whole I don't mind it with Shiva that much.

That's why the game allows you to unlock the true ending and final boss even through Casual. I didn't see the attack coming, and got slapped my first time on Shiva while doing it on Hardcore, and lost the S-Rank. Went through it on casual in the span of 5 minutes and unlocked the true ending and final boss, which I then did on Hardcore.

Even on Hardcore, skipping all the cutscenes, the mission really doesn't take more then 15 or so minutes from start to finish assuming you have somewhat decent and current gear. And the actual requirements to S-Rank on Shiva are laughably easy, you can pretty much facetank a huge chunk of damage and still walk away with an S-Rank. I managed to S-Rank the final boss my first time in going blind, even though I failed to dodge a large number of it's mechanics during Phase 2.

Honestly failing at Shiva at the end of the mission is no less punishing then pretty much any other RPG. Atleast you can skip cutscenes in PSO2, god knows how many times I died to Seymour on Mt.Gagazet when I played the game as a kid relying heavily on Aeons.. I practically had that stupid 5 minute long cutscene that comes before the fight on memory, to say nothing of a fight like Necron in FFIX, where you have a bunch of cutscenes and a full length boss fight right before hand to wade through every time Necron decides to Grand Cross you into oblivion.

@Blade-Syphon said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

For me that part isn't so much a caution issue as a consistency issue [snip] None of the last four times we've faced a "boss sitting there charging big orbs of light" phase [snip] were don't-attack phases. They were all damage rushes

That's why you listen to her callout. [snip] The barrier that one shots you is always preceded by her shouting "Is that the best you can do?"

I... get the impression you didn't fully digest what I'd said there. Let me try again: The problem isn't that hitting her at the wrong time triggers her lethal attack. It's that the attack shares many cues with other boss attacks that want you to do precisely the opposite, i.e. wail on the boss to stop their lethal attacks.

Does "Is that the best you can do?" say anything about whether the attack is a damage rush or a don't-attack phase? With Persona and Magatsu at least Xiera tells you which it is with plenty of time to get the damage in. It's the mixed signal I was criticising, admittedly a minor point since (pet auto-attacks notwithstanding) it's a lesson that should only need learning once.


@Blade-Syphon said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

the high damage tolerance of that quest meant I still got an S rank!

And the actual requirements to S-Rank on Shiva are laughably easy, you can pretty much facetank a huge chunk of damage and still walk away with an S-Rank.

Um, yes.

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

... get the impression you didn't fully digest what I'd said there. Let me try again: The problem isn't that hitting her at the wrong time triggers her lethal attack. It's that the attack shares many cues with other boss attacks that want you to do precisely the opposite, i.e. wail on the boss to stop their lethal attacks.

I'm really failing to see your point here, which is frankly wrong to begin with. Shiva doesn't charge a giant energy doom ball over her head, or have anything that would otherwise implicate shes "Charging her laser". She creates a red barrier over her, and when you attack it, you're punished. Yes, it's a gotcha moment that's going to probably kill everyone that encounters it the first time, and that's fine. That's how video games work, you're supposed to fail and learn from your mistakes. And I also fail to see your point about Shiva not following every other bosses pattern. Even if it WAS an attack where she starts charging up some super attack, there's nothing wrong with Sega throwing a wrench in the system and punishing you for doing what you normally do. That's part of the challenge of what makes video games fun - the unpredictability and encountering things that break your expectations of what you're supposed to do.

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

Does "Is that the best you can do?" say anything about whether the attack is a damage rush or a don't-attack phase? With Persona and Magatsu at least Xiera tells you which it is with plenty of time to get the damage in. It's the mixed signal I was criticising, admittedly a minor point since (pet auto-attacks notwithstanding) it's a lesson that should only need learning once.

Point ->

Your head ->

It's an audio-cue, it's not supposed to tell you what you're supposed to do, it's supposed to help you learn what SHE is going to do, and how to react to it. You're still intended to learn what the mechanic does through trial and error, the voice line is just there to let you know that it's coming, so you can break away your attack instead of suddenly having a shield appear mid-way through you mashing attack and then suddenly finding yourself dead.

I kind of feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill on this, as you tend to do. Shiva is the penultimate final boss, she could be difficult, and she should be able to catch you off guard. It's what makes her a well made final boss, as opposed to some of the others, which feel more or less just a strafe fest while you occasional i-frame an attack. I don't get why you're criticizing something that's been a part of video game design since the beginning.

@Astral-Lettie said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@ZENCHI said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Misuran said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Yggranya said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@VanillaLucia Hah! This is the kind of thing you get when the only purpose in designing an encounter is to get the player killed. Like anything like this, the only way to avoid it is to be clairvoyant or to have watched a video or being warned in advance. What amazing "skill"!

It doesn't take being clairvoyant. It just takes slowing down a little and observing when unfamiliar.

Enemies that counter also aren't exactly new prior to that boss.

Similar hit-red-barrier-equals-counter mechanic has been introduced earlier in the same episode on a luminmech mob, where they specifically told you that attacking it while it's up will result in a counter.

Don't bother. There's always bad leechers who blame and flame others. Many tried helping this guy but he keeps being mean to everyone.

At that point, you just stop responding to them, as nothing will help, it's similar to one kid i had to ignore who was blaming devs for divide quests conditions when he was likely secretly mad they weren't easily puggable so he could leech off others and wanted them easier. They just attack you and anyone who isn't agreeing with them.

But for the topic yeah she does have a very obvious cue when she starts speaking the lines, so you have plenty of time to back up. though oddly enough matoi will trigger it but she doesn't get one shot. though i SEE the full damage, it's kind of odd.

I forgot locking my divide yesterday, I lost to time because of some guy obviously playing Etoile because game is too hard for them without damage reduction.

@Blade-Syphon said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

Shiva doesn't charge a giant energy doom ball over her head, or have anything that would otherwise implicate shes "Charging her laser". She creates a red barrier over her, and when you attack it, you're punished.

Then I guess I never triggered that attack then? I've been talking about three times she did a large explosion followed by a few devices surrounding you briefly before your character gets locked in place followed by an unavoidable hit, and in none of those times was it preceded by such a red barrier.

The only "red barrier over her" I can recall was when a red hemisphere dome appeared over her which happened way more regularly than I'd expect would be for an instant-kill counter. Moreover attacking that never caused any repercussions that I noticed, and it didn't appear before any of the time-stop shenanigans. Perhaps that's a separate instant-kill you're referring to and pets just don't trigger it? If so, that's kind of neat if making life a little too easy for summoners. 🤷


@Blade-Syphon said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Miraglyth said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

Does "Is that the best you can do?" say anything about whether the attack is a damage rush or a don't-attack phase?

Point ->

Your head ->

No. I made the point and you replied to me first, saying something completely irrelevant. I'm not disagreeing with whatever you're saying; you just want "the point" to be something other that what I had said. I know what point I was making, it is the point I was making, and I'm not interested in getting into a non-argument about something else entirely especially if you're going to be rude. Sorry.

There's two instant kills. One is a counter attack where she poses with TMGs for a second, then a small red dome covers her. The other is at the end of one of her low HP attacks where she covers a large area with a red aura while stuff shoots at you for a while, then some sword-looking things impale you for a time stop before she uses the attack. You can in fact dodge the latter if you mash out of the timestop then iframe the hit. You can also just dodge both parts.

I think the counter might have a range limit. I was doing it on rifle Ph and fired a charged WA from max range right as she started talking. Matoi got grabbed and took like 50%, but nothing happened to me.

@Miraglyth Barrier at 52:22 in the video below (I don't get hit by the counter since I stopped attacking, while Matoi gets hit by the counter):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2sCUhEsW9g#t=52m22s

@AiC-L said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

There's two instant kills.

@Ezodagrom said in Final Story Mission Conditions:

@Miraglyth Barrier at 52:22 in the video below [snip] Matoi gets hit by the counter:

Thanks both! This is the red hemisphere dome I spoke of before - and I wasn't once hit by that red-swords counter. It's a more localised response than I had expected; knowing that now, instead of my pets not setting it off at all, maybe it did happen but only hit the pets? Or as AiC-L raises the possibility, perhaps I was simply far enough away to not be affected by it.

And yeah this isn't a big-orb-charging attack like the others which are all damage rushes, so that does remove the element of false expectation set up by previous bosses I had mentioned before.

Since everyone was talking about a big flashy instant-kill counter and since I saw no other instant-kill style attacks when I fought her, I had interpreted everyone to have meant the other one; the attack that happens here in the above video and that the entire phase was triggered by attacking her at the wrong time rather than just being a standard part of the battle. So that's now cleared up.

Thanks to knowing which counter people mean now, my position is somewhat reversed; anyone who doesn't happen to be attacking right as the dome appears for the first time might intuit that attacking a big shield dome probably won't accomplish much, even if it's a little unfair to those who are unfortunate enough to be. And yes that one has a substantial lead-in so the lesson should only need learning once anyway. Which is a bit of a kicker to unfortunate melee classes with no substantial damage reduction or Will skills (Bouncers, Phantoms and Lusters I think?) but ultimately should still only need a second clear of the quest.

@Miraglyth I think that big wide area attack happens when she reaches a certain HP, maybe?

The swords that cause stun in that attack can be escaped through dodging or with invulnerability frames (like phantom charging techs), though I failed the guard timing in that video (but since I was using etoile anyway, I survived). xD

People that have played games like No More Heroes (as I did) are quite very used to insta-kill attacks having a distinct cue on this kind of action combat. And learning them is a part of the process.

I get that people only interested to watch the story complain though, as on Casual there's no reason to break the "cinematic flow" it has by shoving you one of those in the eleventh hour.

On Hardcore, though, you get what you signed for. It is the "last" boss after all.

Thanks for documenting both of them though, as people will be able to know what went wrong. There's no worse feeling on a game not knowing what you did wrong and losing as it might feel like it is cheating on you.