Nearly two months without player trading

@Ashe-Kinsilla said in Nearly two months without player trading:

I'd honestly like to know what a few f2p games are doing to combat bots. I remember when I was in highs chool and the whole f2p eastern online games were barely making it over to the western side of the world. The bot spam was crazy. Comapred to now its was crazy, but i'd still like to see how other companies are doing it AND keeping trading open.

Oh god now I feel old, yes I remember too. Many of those games went under because people would trade for the illegal copy of the cosmetics instead of buying from the store. Off the top of my head some of the biggest hit F2P combated the problem by making hot ticket items account or soul bound, required a cash shop item in order to trade or unbind the item, some of them locked trading to a premium account like PSO2 does and a good majority just had a bigger staff to watch for bots. I still see bots from time to time in the other games but other than Dragon’s Nest it’s not nearly as noticeable as PSO2, I just wonder if that big Sega name made them a bigger target.

@ZENCHI said in Nearly two months without player trading:

@Milk said in Nearly two months without player trading:

@IAMCRAIG said in Nearly two months without player trading:

If that were the sole reason for trading being removed in NGS it would still be an awful idea and not solve anything since there will still be a player market. The reason for its removal is most likely profit-driven given the monetization of PSO2 (and is incredibly predatory, like most gambling is).

There’s going to be a 10% tax on personal shop and removing trading will stop people trying to get around that. I think it’s a profit driven reason as well. It’s too bad players won’t be able to gift their new friends starter discs or gear they found, they could have just put a restriction on AC items but instead they chose to remove it. No mention of what they plan on replacing it with so it’s $15/mo for less features. Not one game I play with a premium sub excludes trading so this feels like a ripoff. No thanks. 😑

Then go play those games.

A helpful and informative post! /s

But yeah, it'd be nice if you could still give things to people on your friendslist/alliance, assuming you had been friends with them/they were in the alliance for X amount of days, or that said item becomes untradeable afterwards

The former would work better for combating bots, though said period of time would likely need to be close to a month to help ensure it'd be unprofitable for them + gives ingame mods extra time to spot any. The latter would be more player friendly and as long as players can't trade meseta, it won't be an effective way to get around the 10% tax, with the added bonus of making it so rmt sellers and their bots can't trade items through multiple accounts to obfuscate tracing them and using dummy accounts to actually sell the items.

There's probably a glaring flaw or two I managed to overlook, but honestly I'd like to have some sort of way to give friends stuff or barring that, a 200-300 ac cost reduction of premium.

Glad I'm skipping NGS. Seems terrible to me. No player trading? Taxing the player shop? Yet we all know Premium will stay the same price because there is not one company in the world that lowers the price after getting rid of features. Yet as the JP version of PSO2 shows, a simple IP ban covering China can axe 99.9% of the bots.

Sorry Sega, but when your pay model is worse than Star Wars The Old Republic and Star Trek Online, you messed up. I kinda wish the game had never gotten a western release now. PSO2 used to have the best pay model, and NGS is going to have the worst, and I can't help but blame the global release for it.

Alright you seem to be misunderstanding something. Bots VERY MUCH EXIST in PSO2 JP. The difference is they don't advertise in the PSO2 lobbies. Plenty of websites in Japanese advertise in-game currency for IRL cash. Removing personal trading essentially removes the hold that in-game money sellers have in that market.

You're quite literally making a mountain out of an ant hill. One feature removed does not suddenly make a game awful. Just like many things over the internet you're using fake internet rage and nothing more.

@Zeke said in Nearly two months without player trading:

Alright you seem to be misunderstanding something. Bots VERY MUCH EXIST in PSO2 JP. The difference is they don't advertise in the PSO2 lobbies. Plenty of websites in Japanese advertise in-game currency for IRL cash. Removing personal trading essentially removes the hold that in-game money sellers have in that market.

You're quite literally making a mountain out of an ant hill. One feature removed does not suddenly make a game awful. Just like many things over the internet you're using fake internet rage and nothing more.

It will barely hurt RMT sellers at all. They already move meseta around by buying/selling cheap items at high prices between eachother/from customers. There already is a 5% tax in place in the base game as well.

Note that these are devs that attempted to solve an issue with servers not being able to fully handle the amount of players/player activity in the game by disabling sitting in chairs years ago.

@Zeke Given that player trading is one of the only value features of Premium, I don't see how this isn't a huge deal. If they don't lower Premium prices in NGS, and give less for the value, that is a failing business plan and NGS will join the hundreds of other failed MMORPGs that tried hard moves to stop botting. Taxing the player shop to make it harder to trade between players makes the issue yet worse. My partner and I only have premium so we can trade with each other. Sega has botched every aspect of this issue in both PSO2 AND NGS. It is unacceptable, and I don't understand why people are just willing to roll over and accept everything. The current generation is weak and has low standards. We all deserve and are owed better, by EVERY company in the world, this one included. This proposed model for NGS would make their Premium model worse than SWTOR and STO. That is NOT a good place to be.

Just gate public messaging to Level 50 and above, and IP ban all China. Problems solved.

That said, even with the botches, people will likely still roll over and take it just as they have since Reagan was elected 41 years ago. smdh

Less cost or more perks, they can pick one. Imagine a real life company taking something away and charging full price for it, that’s like some fast food meal taking the fries out of your meal order or a cable company removing some of the channels you pay for. It doesn’t matter if you were going to eat those fries or watch those channels, you paid for them. Why in any transaction would you be ok with paying full price for less than what was advertised? This just isn’t ok.

I like the game and as I’ve said before I pay for things that I feel are a good value. My character alts, inventory and AC scratch were consistently good purchases that I will continue, I will support premium until NGS but the bot issue is not my problem and my burden. Find a way to fix it that doesn’t pass the buck to the customer, lower the price for reduced features or replace it with something of equal value.

I find the OP's rhetoric off-putting, but am in favor of allowing player trades in NGS. And while I think some of the suggestions here would help dissuade RMT while still allowing gifting (no meseta trades, making traded items unsellable, etc.), I agree with @IAMCRAIG's sentiment earlier that the rationale for this decision likely goes beyond preventing RMT.

With that in mind, I'd be interested in hearing what folks think about SEGA allowing gifting (with some of the restrictions mentioned in previous posts), but then selling meseta themselves as a way of combating the black market while also recapturing some of the profits they expect to gain from preventing trades.

Assuming this causes more people to buy meseta directly than through the current black market, meseta sales would obviously cause some inflation in the economy. However, I'd personally be willing to accept that tradeoff and think the inflation wouldn't be too bad depending on the exchange rate. Right now, $2 gets you 200 AC which can be exchanged for 1 scratch ticket which can be sold for a minimum of ~600k meseta or whatever the price of a recycle badge is on your ship.

A few problems come immediately to mind, but I'm sure the community can identify more:

  • I think the ideal exchange rate would be a form of index pricing whereby the exchange fluctuates according to say the average value of recycle badges over the past 7 days. However, this could cause player confusion and likely a good deal of backlash when players realize they got less meseta than what they paid for previously (naturally there'd be far fewer happy posts when someone got more than their last purchase).
  • I imagine there'd be a decrease in the supply of AC items as some players switch to buying meseta directly which would increase the cost of those items in addition to any increase due to inflation. This would hurt the F2P experience in particular.
  • Even rare world drops might be harder to purchase as it might be easier for whales to buy out all of the supply of a given item (though I can imagine a world in which the expected value from selling scratch ticket items is still a better whale strategy so we see similar market manipulation to what we have now)

Edit - I should've specified that I was focusing on the reasons why players might be against SEGA selling meseta directly. Naturally, SEGA may be against the idea themselves if they think people will purchase less AC overall compared to what they get from a system where people can only buy lottery tickets (or risk buying meseta from RMTers).

Given these issues, and whatever else folks identify, would you be willing to accept the downsides of SEGA selling meseta to have player gifting enabled in NGS?

@Rang-Dipkin Something I would consider is that beyond fashion I feel it would be a huge curbstomp to do something like Capcom did with Dragon's Dogma Online in making it so only resources (and not any actual equipment) could be sold on the Player Shops. It only seemed to work because in that game your equipment is heavily centered towards crafting and if you do not have the means to craft high-level equipment (leveling up your pawns) you simply don't have access to that equipment in the first place unless you bought it from a vendor (which typically sells the lowest-grade version of weapons and the weakest variants that would barely make a dent in the relevant content). With that you completely mitigate the "rare drop" equipment being sold to players or being usable by players far earlier than normal like our current situation (anyone can save up for a thirteen-star or fourteen-star weapon for use or buy twelve-star units and already be set for mos of the game). I don't really see this working in Phantasy Star Online 2 considering where the power is (Collection Folders are far easier to complete) and I would imagine that in New Genesis unless gear gets locked and restricted from the Player Shops it would only be a matter of time before the powercreep repeats itself when their high-rarity weapons start becoming sold on the Player Shops for easy access (despite things like level requirements for equipment).

My personal hope is that Sega decides to clear up the numerous ways of "trading" we already have with the Photon Capsules, the Present Boxes, the Trading Menu, and the Team/Alliance Storage. I never quite fully understood lamenting the lack of actual "trading" when you take into account that there were already numerous ways of "trading" items between players in-game already and to streamline this. When you add in restrictions to what can be traded as well which largely limits rarer equipment and resources there were already a number of alternatives in-game to trading that came at a slight cost (such as FUN Points for a Present Box) but it didn't exactly inhibit the actual trading that players could have engaged in. The only real catch was that you could only gift 100,000 Meseta at a time through Present Boxes if your goal was to share Meseta that I recall.

@BloodyKyona said in Nearly two months without player trading:

@Zeke Given that player trading is one of the only value features of Premium, I don't see how this isn't a huge deal. If they don't lower Premium prices in NGS, and give less for the value, that is a failing business plan and NGS will join the hundreds of other failed MMORPGs that tried hard moves to stop botting. Taxing the player shop to make it harder to trade between players makes the issue yet worse. My partner and I only have premium so we can trade with each other. Sega has botched every aspect of this issue in both PSO2 AND NGS. It is unacceptable, and I don't understand why people are just willing to roll over and accept everything. The current generation is weak and has low standards. We all deserve and are owed better, by EVERY company in the world, this one included. This proposed model for NGS would make their Premium model worse than SWTOR and STO. That is NOT a good place to be.

Just gate public messaging to Level 50 and above, and IP ban all China. Problems solved.

That said, even with the botches, people will likely still roll over and take it just as they have since Reagan was elected 41 years ago. smdh

Bring in IRL generalizations results in a ban on the forums. Recommend watching yourself. Mods have zero tolerance.

@VanillaLucia It's interesting to hear that Dragon's Dogma Online restricted selling to only resources and that crafting was the main source of progression. I agree that it sounds like this would be harder to pull off in PSO2 unless NGS moved more towards the Zig model even for early rarity weapons or something like that (both in terms of crafting weapons and changing their category). I'm also curious to hear more about the rare drop rate in Dragon's Dogma Online and whether you think that plays a roll in how they implemented the Player Shop. @Ranmaru pointed out that Destiny 2 doesn't allow trading (or have player shops), but having played that franchise for a long time I can say that the drop rates are much more generous than in PSO2. There are always outliers who get screwed by RNG for awhile, but with enough time you can usually get the weapon + the random roll of perks you want (or something really close). And now that they're retiring gear they've experimented with (grindy) methods to reduce your RNG and target farm for many weapons/rolls...but there have been some obvious missteps that get closer to PSO2's level of rarity like the current season's Bottom Dollar hand cannon which has caused a lot of backlash.

I also agree that there's all sorts of confusing ways to trade with Premium and it'd be nice to streamline that process in NGS. I was definitely bummed when I found out I couldn't gift some 13 star weapons to an alliance member via the capsule machine back in the early episode days when a Gix weapon was still pretty decent. This makes the argument that trading was removed mainly for RMT reasons more plausible, but the fact that they can easily shift money around on the player shops by buying a grinder for multiple millions leads me to believe this can't be the only reason (despite the current 5% tax and upcoming 10% tax).

@Rang-Dipkin "Rare Drops" were largely guaranteed in Dragon's Dogma Online because most of the game (at least during the bulk of Season 2 and Season 3) was spent running in a dungeon and learning to speedrun it to get the rewards at the end (or on the way). You would need something like like twenty special rocks from that dungeon to make an ingot, another twenty from another dungeon to make cloth, or something of another related material so that you can combine them all together in your crafting to make the high-end equipment. If you did not craft something with a high enough rating you would have to start over on the grind or pay your way through using the Bazaar which was effectively the game's Player Shop-equivalent with competitive pricing. You could completely skip this by using the gacha weapons but once you brought those weapons to the relevant content (say for example an "Item Rank 100" weapon brought to a place where the enemies are that level you will find very quickly your weapon you paid for as a shortcut is ineffective and worse than the base-rate weapons you could have crafted from the previous tier.

When you decide you want "end-game" equipment or to future-proof yourself so you can still do the next tier of content you can participate in Extreme Missions and Grand Missions (the game's versions of raids) where you go through familiar fights but with much more challenging damage checks and skill checks for rewards. However, these tend to be time-gated so you can only get the rewards once a day and get smaller rewards in every successive run.

At the end of the game's lifespan (Season 3.4) they introduced a new series of Extreme Quests that worked similarly to Warframe's Bounties in the open-worlds and their Defense missions where you had to run around and fight waves of enemies on a map. Every five waves you unlocked the chance to open a chest for rewards and dying/respawning would set you back five waves (meaning if you could not get to five you failed to get any reward at all and would leave with time spent getting nothing) and the ideal goal was to reach at least twenty or thirty waves before getting to the end and not opening any chests until you got to the very last few (as you can only open a number of chests equal to the intervals of five waves you got). This ended up dropping random end-game-ready gear that had a special power in them that was only relevant for the new end-game boss fights (Dragon Power and abilities) but for the rest of the game was otherwise comparable in stats to everything else.

The drop rates in Dragon's Dogma Online aren't overly "generous" in high numbers but if you ran a dungeon successfully you were guaranteed the intended reward. The problem then is that you can crunch the math, figure out your speedrunning strategies for optimal runs, and realize you need to run this dungeon several hundred times in order to get the equipment you want. You can put up items on the Bazaar for free (players with the "Premium" Adventure Pass get to put up ten items instead of just five and don't have a cooldown upon items selling whereas free players have to wait twenty-four hours after an item sells) to fund shortcuts around gathering resources but a great deal of the rarer resources cannot be sold or bought anyways and must be farmed for manually over time. I would put this up there in comparison and in competition with Phantasy Star Online 2's original drop rates for Episodes 4-5 where you had to hunt for a New-Type thirteen-star weapon (which could not be sold in the Player Shops at the time or traded for) and hope that it dropped with a +35 Grind Limit. If it did not you had to hope for another duplicate to drop or a similar weapon that would push you there as certain weapons gave advantages for progression (Rifles allowed both a Gunner and Ranger to break the Level 75 Cap simultaneously and the Talis allowed the same for the Force and Techer). The Successor classes never had to deal with this as their gameplay (specifically the Hero as they were the only one around during this time) had a fundamental core gameplay that was usable, playable, and responsive without any fancy equipment (all classes would otherwise have used "mobility" rings for things like step-jump dashing, for aerial recovery after taking a hit, or having a Just-Attack Bonus on the first hit meanwhile the Hero is a class who can use everything to zip around, handle mobs, handle bosses, and negate most of the problems related to the lack of mobility).

I really would not mind if New Genesis takes the approach of expanding a Zieg-like exchange for crafting weapons/equipment as a means of getting "powerful" gear or for tailoring equipment you can find out in the wild so you could effectively do something like "Extend" something like a Vita weapon to make it end-game worthy or to at least tailor it to the player's preferences like our SSA's can do. My hope is that we can drop a vertical progression in favor of something much more horizontal provided the game takes a huge spike in difficulty and execution (similar to Monster Hunter) so that players have a reason to seek out other options and alternatives and also can still use what they like and what they want. Dragon's Dogma Online was definitely punishing in that if you created the low-tier weapons for that content you are facing the next tier of content makes your weapons worthless (you deal minimal damage and get one-shotted) and if you never geared up to that point or relied on the gacha equipment you would end up stuck never being able to be viable at the current content without investing in the grind at some point. In Phantasy Star Online 2's case, I never liked that you can pick up a Vita weapon early on and discard it because you know it isn't valuable outside of cosmetics because there was absolutely no way that would hold up on Ultra Hard unless you were trying for one of those challenges (for instance the several one-star weapon and no-unit battles against the final boss).

I am curious to see where the microtransactions will lie or where things like the real-money-trading market would go if it turned out that the new version of Meseta is restricted to only buying things from vendors such as starting equipment or consumables (if those are still something you can preload before embarking on an adventure). I would curious of how things would be if the means to trade cosmetics became something else that could not be traded or would have a different kind of inherent value along the lines of Bitcoin mining (completing tasks in-game to get that token type of currency which can be exchanged for fashion but is not obtainable otherwise or usable otherwise for anything that isn't cosmetic). If it ended up like the Blue Badges we had for inviting new players with an exchange shop but did not help progression at all I am curious to see how the market for fashion would go if the costs for affixing and the costs for fashion were completely separated and to see where those bots decide to look for profits.

@Zeke said in Nearly two months without player trading:

Bring in IRL generalizations results in a ban on the forums. Recommend watching yourself. Mods have zero tolerance.

How did I bring ANY IRL generalizations? I stated facts. Facts don't care about feelings. The vast majority of people FACTUALLY have lower standards than in the 80s and prior and put up with far more that they shouldn't.

As for IP banning China, that is FACTUALLY precisely what PSO2 JP does to prevent like 95% of the issues Global is having, because most of the crooks doing RMTs are from China.

Where are the generalizations? They're statements of fact. I'm tired of people denying facts just to be polite or kind. I refuse. If I get banned for a statement of fact, that is a damnation of the mods and Sega, not me. I know I'm right and that's all that really matters.

And now the most offensive player compensation I've ever seen. A Rainbow Key, a Tri Boost 150, and 50 SG? Is this a joke? Maybe if we get this once a day every day for the next two weeks it might be suitable compensation. This is a bad joke. Sega has no clue how to properly treat customers.

Yeah thats a pretty bad compensation for having trading disabled for so long