monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations)

I'm going to need to overlap quotes in this reply because there is a lot to pick apart in that mess of a post:


@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth with a true engine update most of the work is already done. old models are already made

Look I hate to point this out but considering you saw the changes before making this topic and called them a texture update for five pages before listening to reason, I'm not immediately sure what you are trying to convey with this new term "true engine update" and what differentiates it from a normal engine update.

I'm guessing you mean "If they remade EVERYTHING" - all models, physics, environments, characters, story, voice acting, classes, items and a ton of other stuff that ultimately means not ONE old asset is kept - and you know what that is? It's a new game. Some retail games have gone to that extent. They are sold again as new games, and they are generally called remakes. They're also sometimes broken into parts to be sold separately for a greater overall price because modernising particularly old content is a vast and expensive task.


@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth with a true engine update most of the work is already done. old models are already made, therefore vertices are already rigged and there is one canned hand animation that is required across the board

Sorry... now I'm confused. Are you instead talking about literally just updating the engine only, such that it makes better use of existing model, texture, mapping and structuring? Because while that is what NGS is doing with environments (like the Gate Area and all PSO2 field areas; they seem to have imported location data as-is and are just giving it new lighting and rendering) it is certainly not what the purpose of NGS physiques is and this would seem like a very self-defeating argument.


@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

old models are already made, therefore vertices are already rigged and there is one canned hand animation that is required across the board

It sounds like you're saying that a new engine could magically add fingers to the bone structures of all the old outfits simply by the power of how awesome it is; that because all old outfits are assumed to have hands in the first place, they must all be in exactly the same place so this mythical new engine can just say "For these, add bones for hands there and then animate them, job done!"

There isn't a canned hand animation. Hands in PSO2 have almost never been animated, with rare exception (I think Quna's hands are for instance, and have heard suggestion they might be separate models overlaid on top of her hands for programming simplicity). The reason our characters' fingers have never curled isn't because they've had bones for 8 years and the developers have forgotten to use them; it's because they've never had bones.

And this matters because for 8 years of model creation, they've made independently-sculpted lumps to act as hands on thousands of different models knowing they don't need to worry too much about finger placement because fingers can't move anyway. And while many outfits seem to have left an apparent template alone many others have made changes that any automated assumptions might make a total mess of.

Perhaps the most obvious example: If you have a new engine magically assume and inject the finger position (which isn't what engines don anyway, but humour your own logic here for a moment) of all* models, what happens when the hands are reshaped?

2ab7d1d2-cbf3-48b2-a5d1-2f7e5c78d750-image.png

Or have extra parts added in unique places?

1ee9ee5c-481c-4418-9fb6-bb1851ca8d7d-image.png

Or are extruded by gloves?

d747af0b-98fc-4139-9cfb-e8b287b883c7-image.png

Or are covered by extended sleeves that could just be glued to the single part?

bff77311-0f8c-4bd4-afbd-413b6d50b5f0-image.png

Or are resized and given fixed posture?

b3bc589f-7585-4144-9e2d-dda8d1354652-image.png

Or aren't even hands at all?

59e20bbb-39e7-41f6-b6f0-d2d84e11ad3c-image.png

Or aren't even there?

1b4b626e-c5f1-4723-9122-49e95863f1a8-image.png

At best you get a little unpredictable jank with extra parts following the wrong bone. At worst you get an absolute mess of polygons turning into a hilariously ugly scramble that would make some legacy outfits too broken to be worth using and would not impress the wave of new players NGS will hopefully bring.

* And I doubt I even need to mention how tis would be impossible for alternative physiques that already exist - rappies, mini rappies, lillipans, mini lillipans, sadeenians, daybreakers, FRAME ARMS robots - and how that work would need to be manually replicated for each and every one of those anyway. Or how things like christmas mittens would need to be treated as exceptions to do something like limit the differences between adjacent finger movements.

And don't even get started on the distinct joints implied by the way some of the CAST part hands have been modelled, which would definitely need to be looked at individually to make sure they didn't completely break how they are implied to move.

And you might not realise this but even outfits that look like they should use consistent bone structures don't. Did you know that the Collared Persona outfit uses a different bone structure than the normal one despite looking like a copy-paste outfit with a different collar? If you run with both of them you will see the bottom of the coats have their bones in different places. How does this automatic re-rigging solution of yours deal with stuff like that? So no this isn't just about hands.

And there's probably several other complications I haven't even considered here, or couldn't know about. Maybe some of the earliest models' hands were distinctly modelled and don't use the same template, meaning they'd need to be checked separately. Maybe the template itself is a starting point and many outfits' hands which look identical have been optimised differently meaning they'd all need to be reviewed individually. Maybe one of a hundred other potential minefields or show-stoppers that even the game's most veteran cosmetic creators couldn't foresee.

What you are proposing is not something the mere words "new engine" can magically do. It would be a ton of work to extend support of legacy outfit parts, and the consequence of doing that work is that future new outfits would need to adhere to the limitations of such a complex update anyway. Which lets me move on...


@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

modern techniques would also allow for textures to be upscaled procedurally. thats all assuming their new engine is implemented properly. its really not an impressive amount of work unless they have crappy implementation.

And what you are pretending they are doing here (or maybe just continuing the mystery concept of a "true engine update" above) is employing automation to convert existing models. This (and thereby most of the previous quote's response beyond explanation) is 100% irrelevant because at no point ever have Sega said they would be taking this approach.

Pretty clearly from the outset of NGS' announcement they have been focusing on an entirely new from-the-ground-up model format that is so different to the legacy format that they are by design incompatible. And that's not out of malice - that's just because they want to set up a new format that gives them more creative freedom over the content they can make for us in the future.

If they were to update rather than replace the character model format, maybe that would give them more reason to consider enhancements to models that would presumably still be compatible. But if they were to do that, it would also restrict them from being able to modernise new content to the extent that they've clearly wanted to. "Oh we can't make that change, because the old outfits wouldn't work with it".

That pervasiveness of legacy support is a nasty thing and I am glad they are starting fresh because it means new content in the future has the freedom to look and animate better as part of a new and more future-proof framework they're setting up from a clean slate. New Genesis will be a better game for it.

What irritates me is that they've chosen to retain support for old outfits with their old physiques completely intact which is an obvious legacy support measure intended to allow players full access to the outfits they scratched and paid for in the past, and you are complaining about that because you aren't getting something new for free.

Let me explain this to you: Live service game cosmetics are basically chocolate bars. You buy them knowing they'll be temporary enjoyment because eventually the game will go away, just like a chocolate bar once eaten is gone.

If your confectioner of choice happens to improve the recipe of a chocolate bar you have previously eaten - maybe giving it more milk and less sugar, or maybe introducing a new variety that has caramel or biscuit or raspberry, or maybe just making it larger for the same price - do you protest about it online and demand they send you a new chocolate bar because you ate an older version?

Now it is certainly within any company's power to do nice things for players that they don't need to do to earn them good PR, especially at a time of upheaval. They could give pre-NGS players any kind of unique perk for having supported the game prior to NGS or even during the period of time the game was known to be largely replaced by NGS and many other players decided to go the unsupportive "waiting for NGS" route, and this would be a good PR move for sure. This is why I suggested earlier in this topic that it would be better to suggest a cheaper "new physique" upgrade route using the in-game suggestions forum or a support ticket.

Similarly other games can issue any kind of content or graphical renewal to keep the game feeling supported and players feeling valued. Just like the above, this is optional and done for PR reasons. It feels like this is being forgotten - Horosha Onikage above might have the first and only good example of a comparable cosmetic overhaul with Path of Exile (though the details and breadth of that still seem pretty unclear to me). But one game doing something it doesn't have to does not make it some kind of industry-standard practise. And it certainly doesn't mean that a different game is somehow scummy for doing a huge upheaval and focusing its attentions elsewhere - because just look at the NGS environments and tell me that's not a significant overhaul.


@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

if LoL did the same thing as NGS it would be the equivalent of having to re-buy the character every time it's reworked

How many times are you going to bring up that terrible example? A lie repeated does not become truth. LoL has had less than 100 "visual" replacements in over 7 years. They didn't replace 5,000 more since the last time you brought them up, and its character models are still low-detail compared to those of PSO2 even pre-NGS and still have no size/proportion customisation to worry about. A good third of its visual updates were just replacing spell effects, and probably several of the others just involved slapping a new texture on the same low-poly model.

You are comparing apples and oranges, at this point you know that's what you are doing, and you are not fooling anybody. Persisting with this comically bad comparison is hurting your argument and I seriously advise you to stop if you want to have any credibility.

This post is deleted!

I'm not entirely sure I'd invest in costumes that look similar to what I have in BASE PSO2 since I won't be as invested in NGS. I don't have a clear understanding but it seems I can still use my old costumes in some way so hopefully that can suffice. At the very least emotes transfer right?

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth im done arguing, PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags. that is all i have to say

Well SEGA as company is notoriously mismanaged and have been for a long time. Far longer than companies like Bethesda dating all the way back to 1999 I think.

@Ranmaru said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

At the very least emotes transfer right?

They do.

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth im done arguing, PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags. that is all i have to say

No, you're just too entitled and want everything for free.

I bet you also wanted a free playstation 2 because you bought a playstation 1 and called Sony scumbags for releasing a better console later on!

This is exactly as ridiculous as your complaint is.

@ZENCHI said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth im done arguing, PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags. that is all i have to say

No, you're just too entitled and want everything for free.

I bet you also wanted a free playstation 2 because you bought a playstation 1 and called Sony scumbags for releasing a better console later on!

This is exactly as ridiculous as your complaint is.

To be fair SEGA really does have bad management. That’s absolutely a fact and not an opinion btw.

@NotWhoUThink said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@ZENCHI said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Miraglyth im done arguing, PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags. that is all i have to say

No, you're just too entitled and want everything for free.

I bet you also wanted a free playstation 2 because you bought a playstation 1 and called Sony scumbags for releasing a better console later on!

This is exactly as ridiculous as your complaint is.

To be fair SEGA really does have bad management. That’s absolutely a fact and not an opinion btw.

There's not a place "to be fair" in this thread that reeks of entitlement.

@NotWhoUThink said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

To be fair [something unrelated to the topic]

Er, okay...?

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@NotWhoUThink said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

To be fair [something unrelated to the topic]

Er, okay...?

You said "PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags." so I don't know how commenting on that is off topic unless your comment is also off topic. So maybe you should stick to the topic more?

@NotWhoUThink said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

You said "PSO2 management SEGA CEOs are a bunch of scumbags."

No I didn't.

@Miraglyth Whoops, my bad, you're right my fault. I thought you said that.

Christ, entitlement when we've paid for the cosmetics already? I've played this damned game since 2012 and I DO expect the ones that SEGA is updating to be a free upgrade. I've already paid for them with scratches both on global and JP, with premium, with SG, with AC. Otherwise, you folks are just proving my point. Rolling over and letting these companies get away with more monetization. But hey, if you folks keep repeating the same points, there's no convincing you, is there?

@Horosha-Onikage THANKYOU im just a lowly NA player who could barely launch the game, what would i know