monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations)

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

It wasn't my example to begin with and it's poor because of the points you ignored about low volume and different monetisation model. A listing of historical upates gives us a count of 100 updates that are at least partially categorised as "Visual" though 1 hasn't happened yet and 41 are sufficed "(VFX)" which appear to be things like spell effects only, leaving 58 graphical reworks of far less detailed models spread over 9½ years, most of which were likely aesthetic do-overs and all of which are for heroes of fixed size rather than completely new skeletons with wildly dynamic proportion options given to the player. This is simply not comparable to asking for literally thousands of reworks of higher-detail content to not only be dropped all at once but created and tested for a wider range of use scenarios.

It's because the amount of work has NOTHING to do with this. Nobody is expecting them to have all the outfits updated right away or even at all. But if the outfit IS updated to have the movy fingers and some more triangles, we expect to not have to buy the damn thing again to get that.

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

The overwhelming majority of the several thousand PSO2 outfit pieces and CAST parts are not receiving updates at all. It's not a feasible amount of work. If you skim-read the title and thought it was just texture recompression or something that could be automated you really don't know the details and the best advice I can give is to read further so you do.

You're misinterpreting me. I don't know the details as in, I don't know whether my understanding is correct that Sega is selling the updated versions of these old outfits as "new" NGS outfits. Could be mistranslation leading to that conclusion-- isn't the first time in this new batch of info.

If it is correct, then I don't need to read further. That's shitty. It's anti-consumer. They should probably reconsider that stance-- if being anti-consumer isn't enough, how about because it's not terribly hype to have to buy an outfit you already bought and can use in NGS, one more time to update it. Get Excited for Rehash Scratches, amirite?

If it's not, then we're good. I'd be perfectly happy to buy brand new outfits (as opposed to 'silly ninja suit NEW TYPE') and live with my insignificant disappointment that my existing silly ninja suit can't move the fingers.

@NotWhoUThink said in monetizing costume textures:

@shadonic-0 The difference here is that PSO2 and NGS are touted as the same game. PSU and PSO are not the same game as PSO2. Then you’re thinking “But PSO2 NGS isn’t the same game as PSO2” and you’d be right as they functionally aren’t the same game. So why do both use the same name? There’s no reason they should both be PSO2. But then you’d be thinking “Well it’s okay because my outfits and costumes can be brought over to NGS” and my counterpoint to that is the technology like that is already available where save data on PSO2 can already be read into another game. Literally the only benefit to having the game be accessible through PSO2 is to save you like 1 minute of your time. NGS shouldn’t have PSO2 in the name and should’ve been it’s own separate game.

Oh, I agree about pso2 and ngs shouldn't be the same game. But that's segas save bet to continue with the success they had with pso2 in general. It's their money cow, and a global release most likely wouldn't have happened in ngs was a stand alone game in the series. I also don't care much about my current costumes. I like to swap them out at times, but most of them are currently getting sold. I'm not planning to move into a new game with old designes.atleast not for long

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

Poor example; League of Legends has revamped their champions, graphically and gameplay-wise, slowly over the years, and they do not re-sell you the updates once they are done.

I don't know the details, but if Sega is re-selling the updates as new outfits, that's pretty shitty, and I'm kinda shocked anyone is defending that. My assumption was that the updates would happen slowly over time (if at all), while they did NGS scratches to sell new NGS outfits, because nobody has that kind of unlimited manpower to do 77 scratches of content all at once and meet a game launch.

Sega had the option of releasing this as the whole new separate game that it apparently is. By piggybacking onto PSO2 and allowing transfer, they have created certain expectations. Among those expectations is that outfits they sold to us would carry over and we wouldn't have to buy them again.

It's also a shockingly bad decision for long-term business. The idea here, presumably, is for PSO2 to carry the downtime between New Genesis updates, but they are making all sorts of decisions to discourage people from playing and spending money on PSO2, when the two games could complement each other instead.

this is better said than anything ive said. if it was an entirely stand alone title i probably would have absolutely no case here. but its not. its presented and marketted as an extension/update to PSO2 classic. new body type will also exist in PSO2 classic, no? (correct me if im wrong on that). so disregarding NGS, they are releasing updated models into PSO2 classic that you have to re-buy. this form of monetization has never been seen before and is very disrespectful towards the playerbase.

its like the hotel from dragon ball GT where they charge you for every little thing, like volume of soap used.

just imagine if EA or Ubisoft did this...

i looked it up and sega is in the top 25 earning game companies. so am i supposed to believe that sectioning off and sell a basic quality of life upgrade separately through a convoluted gatcha system is going to increase overall revenue when savvy players just pay meseta instead of generating as much hype as possible by making the game simple and easy for new players to get into? its literally just buy buy buy buy in your face right out of the gate

I'm honestly confused by this line of reasoning. Would you rather NGS was just a standalone game from PSO2, so that you wouldn't feel entitled to get costumes for free? A standalone NGS would be worse in any aspect I can think of than the current solution. The population playing base PSO2 would be crushed either way as people flock to NGS, and those who decide to play NGS would just start it with less stuff than they will with the link. Cool... I guess...?

I can't think of any cons on the NGS side to a linkage, and the only con on the PSO2 side is that if you're a PSO2-only player you might feel bad in multi when you see people with NGS costumes. But seeing a player wearing an NGS costume in PSO2 is probably better than just not seeing them at all because nobody wants to leave the stuff they've started building up in NGS, and not having anyone to run with.

The fact that the distinction of whether the new costumes are in a new game or an expansion matters as to whether you think they should be free seems really weird, especially when they're F2P games with no entry cost. The amount of effort to make the costumes remains the same regardless of whether they're in the same game or not. So why does only one of them deserve to be monetized?

This really seems like a classic example of "give an inch, and they'll take a mile".

@Akonyl the reasoning is that if ngs was a stand alone game and they charged for the base textures of the game, it wouldnt be a game. thats like asking what if i chose to build a house without any materials.its more of an impossibility. the whole point of ngs is to bring it up to current year specs. if half the characters look like their from the previous title because people didnt buy the costume from a lootbox then that is crazy. also if its a true engine upgrade then i am 100% certain hand rigging and animations can be done parametrically if its implemented properly. so you just have to write one function that stores vertices in 3d space (12 vertices per hand, 3 variables per vertex, 33 variables per hand at 30 fps doesnt seem that hard?) and have at least 1 canned animation across the board so if casts dont get universal hand animation ill be pretty peeved. you can do the hand animation in 30 or 25 fps option if it somehow strains the cpu. import the old models, skulpt the hands for older hands and done

@Akonyl Say someone releases a text search tool but has the CTRL+R replace feature as a buy-in. Say it's a reasonable deal and you buy into it. Then they release Tool 2.0 with a shiny new UI capable of all new features, like a drop down text search on the replace. And you get to keep the replace feature you bought too, nice.

Ah, but to use that drop down search, you have to buy the replace feature again-- at the previous price you paid-- on the new Tool 2.0.

Not the world's greatest example, I admit, but hopefully an illustration of the problem. Most people would be really frustrated by that situation. They might be less frustrated if they originally paid for an outfit in like 2014 or something, but in NA's case we're getting outfits we spent potentially a lot of money on (thanks gacha) and literally being told we'll have to buy it again later as OUTFIT NEW TYPE when Sega decides the outfit should get a movy finger upgrade in a few months.

Hopefully that makes my frustration a little more understandable? I whaled like whoa on Sakura Wars, I'm not exactly thrilled that Sega would take that money and then go "If you want movy fingers on your Sakukimono, don't miss SAKURA WARS NEW GENESIS when that scratch drops!" I'm more likely to not want to spend money on New Genesis at all, you get me?

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures:

@Akonyl the reasoning is that if ngs was a stand alone game and they charged for the base textures of the game, it wouldnt be a game. thats like asking what if i chose to build a house without any materials.its more of an impossibility.

I expect that they'll give us a few free NGS newbie outfits too, because yeah it would be strange to start as a new player in NGS and have old graphics. But they're probably just not gonna be the classic/pre-existing PSO2 outfits, those you'll have to pay money for the nostalgia factor of (like NGS Quartz Verge or whatever). The basic free NGS armors are probably the ones they show in NGS trailers all the time, because yeah I don't think they're going to start new-joining players off with old PSO2 graphics or something.

Also, just wrt animations, I'll say that there's a difference between animations and rigging. The rigging itself (attaching the model to the skeleton that gets animated) is the part that would take effort on a per-model basis, the actual animations/emotes themselves apply pretty freely (PSO2 emotes can be used with NGS bodies and vice versa, the only differences will be whether or not the fingers of the models move). So depending on what exactly you mean when you talk about animations, we will actually be getting those for free afaik (but like, if you have an old PSO2 animation you like, they're not going to upgrade it for free to make it move its fingers nicely with NGS models. Everything else will move fine though)

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

@Akonyl Say someone releases a text search tool but has the CTRL+R replace feature as a buy-in. Say it's a reasonable deal and you buy into it. Then they release Tool 2.0 with a shiny new UI capable of all new features, like a drop down text search on the replace. And you get to keep the replace feature you bought too, nice. Ah, but to use that drop down search, you have to buy the replace feature again-- at the previous price you paid-- on the new Tool 2.0.

I feel like it might be better to look at it this way (which also slightly differs from your analogy): Imagine Tool 1.0 lets you buy extensions, one of which is CTRL+R, for $2. The company then comes out with Tool 2.0, which has newer versions of the same extensions (including CTRL+R), for $2 again. You can't mix the two: They're entirely different programs. Having already bought Tool 1.0 with the CTRL+R extension a few years back, I make the move to Tool 2.0 and buy the new CTRL+R plugin for that. In total, I'm out $4.

Now, in an alternate world, when Tool 2.0 was released they decided to allow you to import 1.0 plugins into 2.0. They're worse than the shinier 2.0 plugins, but they have the same amount of functionality as when they were in 1.0. CTRL+R on Tool 2.0 is still $2, though. I think "what the heck? I can get the CTRL+R 1.0 on Tool 2 for free, but they want to charge me full price again for a few extra features?", but since I still want the new thing, I buy it anyway. I end up spending $4 total.

In both situations, I end up at the same place spending the same amount of money. But in the second case, they made the transition a little less painless for people who were attached to their old plugins, to ease people into Tool 2.0 a bit. And heck, maybe using Tool 2.0 with CTRL+R 1.0 is good enough for me, I'm happy enough to be using Tool 2.0 having only spent $2 and ignoring the new plugin.

I understand an initial reaction that it might feel a bit weird to get double-charged in a situation like this, because not many games do a "new game but not" transition like this. But I also think it's important to point out that had there been no linkage (and so no feeling of deserving these things for free) we would've ended up in the same position having to buy things twice, just with less options in the interim.

If you whaled hard on Sakura Wars in PSO2, I don't feel like NGS being split into its own game would help you. You'd still have to re-whale a new Sakura Wars scratch for movy fingers outfits if you wanted movy fingers, but now you wouldn't even have the option of keeping your old frozen-finger outfits if you didn't wanna whale again.

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

It's because the amount of work has NOTHING to do with this.

You don't get to decide that.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

But if the outfit IS updated to have the movy fingers and some more triangles

Oh right yeah, they just take the existing source data they may not even have anymore and hit two buttons that are labelled "+5 fingers" and "+1 triangle" and ta-da you've got yourself an NGS physique outfit. How easy! They could knock it all out in an afternoon. How lazy they are to undermine the game's income stream when it's this easy, amirite? 😒


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

You're misinterpreting me. I don't know the details as in, I don't know whether my understanding is correct that Sega is selling the updated versions of these old outfits as "new" NGS outfits.

Then I'm interpreting you correctly because they're not taking existing source files, hitting a magic +5 fingers button and re-exporting the same textures and reflection maps at a higher resolution.

ngs-close-quarter.gif


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

It's anti-consumer. They should probably reconsider that stance-- if being anti-consumer isn't enough, how about because it's not terribly hype to have to buy an outfit you already bought and can use in NGS, one more time to update it. Get Excited for Rehash Scratches, amirite?

If you don't want it, don't scratch for it or buy it. If you were using the existing one, that'll still work just fine, problem solved. They could have ditched support for old physiques entirely which would have demanded you have to scratch or pay for new-physique versions that most likely wouldn't exist, but they kept it all working and if you spent time or money getting something before what you got will still work perfectly fine. Nothing is being taken away.

If anything it sounds like you'd be more upset about the progress reset. You put all that effort into getting a 15★ wepaon, how dare they make it act like a 4★ in NGS and demand you spend more time on level 1 classes getting more equipment again!!


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

Say someone releases a text search tool but has the CTRL+R replace feature as a buy-in. Say it's a reasonable deal and you buy into it. Then they release Tool 2.0 with a shiny new UI capable of all new features, like a drop down text search on the replace. And you get to keep the replace feature you bought too, nice. Ah, but to use that drop down search, you have to buy the replace feature again-- at the previous price you paid-- on the new Tool 2.0.

Not the world's greatest example, I admit

It isn't, because this contrived analogy makes no mention of whether Tool 2.0 gives you any other benefits for free. Was that shiny new UI easier or faster to use, or does it improve your ability to create hotkeys and keyboard shortcuts? Were any other of those "all new features" given for free? If so, Tool 2.0 is a direct and free upgrade and you'd be complaining about not being given even more for free than you already had been despite nothing having been taken away from you.

With a little more detail and a change or two this would have been a good example, but one against the point you're trying to make. Tool 2.0 would let you do everything you could do before and more and you'd be complaining about inability to use an optional new feature that was apparently developed entirely as part of its monetisation model to pay for the other free stuff you got. Not a good look.

The other reason it's a bad example is because you bundled the drop-down search with the existing replace function, stating that people who bought into Tool 2.0 after the upgrade who bought drop-down search got the replace function for free. People who start NGS and get a new-physique version of an outfit from an AC scratch or the market won't get the old-physique version for free at the time as well. What you are describing here is a discount on legacy paid features. Have you ever bought a DLC for a game before it received a follow-up DLC alongside a discounted DLC bundle pack? There's a parallel, though not one relevant to NGS new-physique outfit recreations.

@Miraglyth showing the comparason in the .gif shows how utterly insane charging for the difference within a lootbox better than words ever can

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures:

@Miraglyth showing the comparason in the .gif shows how utterly insane charging for the difference within a lootbox better than words ever can

If you think the difference is trivial, why do you even care? Obviously to you the old-physique version should still be good enough to use and you don't have to do anything to keep using it. What are you even complaining about anymore?

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

You don't get to decide that.

Sure I do. You don't get to dictate what my feelings about the topic have to do with, and I wonder if you're mistaking me for someone else when you keep making this point. So let me make this clear: nothing I've said has to do with the effort behind the update-- my expectations are totally tempered by the fact that altering hundreds of outfits in a legacy framework is not going to be easy or instantaneous or cheap and I'm not expecting outfits to be updated now, soon or ever.

But they should be cognizant of people who previously spent a not-insignificant amount of their money on the Persona MC outfit when updating that outfit. "Buy the outfit again or accept that you whaled to look like you're in 2012 in a 2021 game" is a shitty compromise.

Unfortunately, by piggybacking on PSO2, they've made ALL the NGS conversation about the compromises or lack thereof they've had to make. This has to be killing their marketing.

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

If you don't want it, don't scratch for it or buy it.

I've already decided I won't be, but that doesn't mean I should be silent about my dissatisfaction. I want to support Sega, I want to support PSO2 because I love PSO2. But I'm not eager to support business practices that suck either, and staying silent about that to keep from annoying people who don't care, benefits literally nobody when the point of these announcements for Sega is to watch and gauge the response for further strategy.

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

If anything it sounds like you'd be more upset about the progress reset.

Not really, because that doesn't have to do with real money spent, and they set that expectation up front instead of saying that cosmetics will carry over and then slowly walking it back with compromises.

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

It isn't, because this contrived analogy makes no mention of whether Tool 2.0 gives you any other benefits for free.

That's because I was trying to elucidate, to someone who says they don't understand it, why I am frustrated about this one specific thing. If the example doesn't hold up to scrutiny, then fine, I admit I earned that by scrutinizing your example earlier. So hopefully we're even now.

@Akonyl said in monetizing costume textures:

I understand an initial reaction that it might feel a bit weird to get double-charged in a situation like this, because not many games do a "new game but not" transition like this. But I also think it's important to point out that had there been no linkage (and so no feeling of deserving these things for free) we would've ended up in the same position having to buy things twice, just with less options in the interim.

My problem with your example is that the two programs ARE mixed, inextricably. We use the characters and account we made for PSO2, we use the same cleint, Sega stated cosmetics would transfer, this isn't a totally clean start with a totally new program. That does affect perception. Your example also neglects that the game is still new in NA too; we didn't buy this stuff a few years ago, but at most a few months ago.

From what you said, you seem to see situation like this: "We could have this same situation with the old outfits, or with nothing, therefore at least we have the old outfits." I feel that's a false dichotomy; Sega could be cognizant of its NA audience who's had much, much less time to enjoy the outfits we paid for, rather than taking our money silently and then announcing their intention to double dip once they've got it.

I agree with what someone else said about letting people that already own the original at least outright buy the upgraded versions without scratching for it. They honestly made enough money over the years of pso2 running to give people that own the originals the upgraded versions for free, but if they're not going to they at least need something like that instead.

There should be a permanent way to purchase the upgraded version (even if it has to be made untradable) for say 200 AC if you own the original (remember the NGS versions don't appear in pso2 cutscenes, so we would need to keep both versions instead of replacing the old version with the new one).

If you don't own the original though, of course you should have to scratch for it though, because then you wouldn't even have a reason not to have to scratch for it with the upgraded version's release. I think this is the most logical way for this to be done.

I'm aware some of the outfits they've shown so far were only available for meseta (or included with your character on creation) originally, so I think they could still make those ones upgrades obtainable only from scratches. I'm talking more about if they do upgrade AC scratch items.

@Riesz See, I wouldn't be averse to something like that. At least then it feels like I'm being thrown a bone for having given Sega money for this stuff, instead of having to suffer their gacha a second time to have the movy fingers.

Like, a 150 (200 seems like too much but honestly, I'll take it) AC 'upgrade ticket' on upgradable cosmetics obtained by your account before they start doing NGS scratches. If you didn't have the item by then, then tough luck-- you had the advance warning.

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

It's because the amount of work has NOTHING to do with this.

You don't get to decide that.

Sure I do. You don't get to dictate what my feelings about the topic have to do with

You weren't speaking of your feelings. You were flat-out saying it could be a million hours of work and they should still do it for free on top of the entire NGS update just because they'd done it once before. That's ridiculous no matter how you slice it, and it's not something anyone gets to make a dictating judgment on.

If the game only had 100 relatively low-poly updates League style then there's a much more credible case that this could have been done as part of a proudly promoted visual update. But as I keep saying it's several thousand models that are individually more detailed and also need to be adapted to the game's dynamic character customisation system including multi-layered character proportions. You don't have the power to tell me I can't believe that adds a ton of complexity to the point of justifying the ability to charge again. Sorry.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

"Buy the outfit again or accept that you whaled to look like you're in 2012 in a 2021 game" is a [snip] compromise.

And in the blue corner we have others saying the differences are too minor to justify charging.

It's funny how both of these arguments are being made concurrently, because they both can't be true. Either it's such a minor upgrade that paying again is asking too much (which means old outfits won't look out of place) or it's such a huge recreation that not buying it makes you look outdated (which means enough work went into it to justify paying again). Which is it? Feels like people are trying to have their cake and eat it too.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

It isn't, because this contrived analogy makes no mention of whether Tool 2.0 gives you any other benefits for free.

If the example doesn't hold up to scrutiny, then fine, I admit I earned that by scrutinizing your example earlier. So hopefully we're even now.

Except no, because I haven't seen that scrutiny of yours and don't believe I've given such an irrelevant example in the first place.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

My problem with your example is that the two programs ARE mixed, inextricably. We use the characters and account we made for PSO2, we use the same cleint, Sega stated cosmetics would transfer, this isn't a totally clean start with a totally new program. That does affect perception.

That still doesn't explain why "You get to keep your character name, friends, alliances and all of your cosmetics with existing accessories and emotes even working with new models" is somehow worse than "You have to start over completely fresh".

In no sensible arrangement ever does getting something automatically create an expectation of getting everything, and that seems to be the only reasoning being presented in this topic. It's just being repeatedly presented in different ways with unfitting analogies and terrible references to other games with drastically simpler visuals, fewer unique models and completely different business models.


I'm responding to quotes from _Flux_ for a couple points above but please note these are criticisms of all people complaining and the thoroughly debunked premise of this topic's title. Not once in this topic has anyone given a compelling substantiation to the idea that - and I will summarise the argument here: "A game whose monetisation comes from selling digital outfits should create, model, texture, reflection-map and rig new outfits just like they have always done and exceptionally provide them for free just because they reference old outfits".

And to make another point around this, they are giving us new outfits for free. NGS character creation will have some default outfits that have been shown off since the first trailer. If they had switched these with recreated PSO2 default outfits and made the NGS ones scratch, would people still be complaining? (I mean, probably lol. I can easily imagine that. "Why should we have to scratch for a new look? We already had the old default outfits and the NGS versions are barely an upgrade!")


@Riesz said in monetizing costume textures:

There should be a permanent way to purchase the upgraded version (even if it has to be made untradable) for say 200 AC if you own the original

This is a reasonable suggestion, and there's no harm in making it. I wouldn't go as far as to say it's a requirement, and it's not quite perfect - for instance, some outfits have never been available to PC players (like older Fresh Finds or SG Shop ones) and many more haven't appeared on Global before so that would introduce a bit of a discrimination in the process - but extra options are generally good things. It's probably worth making a suggestion post or submitting a request to make such proposals though; an idea buried in the middle of a complaint topic might go unnoticed.

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

My problem with your example is that the two programs ARE mixed, inextricably. We use the characters and account we made for PSO2, we use the same cleint, Sega stated cosmetics would transfer, this isn't a totally clean start with a totally new program. That does affect perception. Your example also neglects that the game is still new in NA too; we didn't buy this stuff a few years ago, but at most a few months ago.

I think you might've missed the second part of my example. I talked about two situations in my post, one possibility without a link and one meant to mirror the current situation where there is a link (each in its own paragraph), so that the actual effect of each situation could be measured:

  • A potential situation where the programs weren't linked, so nobody felt a sense of entitlement about transferring plugins (which was stated by the OP, he'd be totally fine with getting charged twice and wouldn't be making this topic if they called it a new game and didn't link the two)
  • The current situation, where they are mixed/linked, and you can use the old stuff but it's worse than the new stuff, but gives off a weird feeling because you're paying full price for what you only see as improvements.

I just lead off with the potential situation before talking about the actual situation, because I thought it made the point I was making clearer. At the end of the day, whether the game is linked or not, if you wanted the new costume (or a new CTRL+R plugin) you would've been out the same $4 total. You're not worse off in any way with the link existing, and if anything it gives more options for people who're satisfied with what they have, and don't wanna spend more. It might look like you're getting screwed more in the linkage situation, but you end up gaining the same stuff at the end for the same amount of money spent.