monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations)

Add Grinding Gear Games to that list. They're also doing an in-place upgrade with PoE2. This includes costumes.

What I see are folks enabling more of SEGA's monetization practices. Which is terrible. I know that these costumes/layered wear take time and resources to be redone. Where is all the money from the past 8 years worth of scratches and MTX going then? Doesn't sound like the development team is seeing much of that income if this is the result. We need to take a stand against such anti-consumer practices wherever we can and be better consumers for it.

@Horosha-Onikage fully agreed, you guys are treating Sega like they're special. they're not.

@Horosha-Onikage said in monetizing costume textures:

Add Grinding Gear Games to that list. They're also doing an in-place upgrade with PoE2. This includes costumes.

A list of zero because none of the previously named games are doing anything like NGS - recompressing hundreds of textures with automation is not the same as manually recreating thousands of complete models - and this continued act of pretending otherwise is becoming a little tiresome.

I'm searching for news about a Pillars of Eternity 2 engine upgrade and I can't find anything, so I can't check if this is the first good example or not.


@Horosha-Onikage said in monetizing costume textures:

Where is all the money from the past 8 years worth of scratches and MTX going then?

What? It went into the profits generated from the time it took to create those things (some of which were surely reinvested into creating NGS in the first place) and the overheads of running the game for 8 years. Zero cost boost periods are only available to players, the service itself still needs to be financed lol.

@Horosha-Onikage said in monetizing costume textures:

Add Grinding Gear Games to that list. They're also doing an in-place upgrade with PoE2. This includes costumes.

What I see are folks enabling more of SEGA's monetization practices. Which is terrible. I know that these costumes/layered wear take time and resources to be redone. Where is all the money from the past 8 years worth of scratches and MTX going then? Doesn't sound like the development team is seeing much of that income if this is the result. We need to take a stand against such anti-consumer practices wherever we can and be better consumers for it.

Has GGG ever made a large portion of their income from costume sales in PoE? Because you gotta take the monetization strategy of the game into account, if they didn't make their money from costumes in the first place, they're not likely to charge for them later on, but a company that makes its money off of costumes isn't gonna just do the playerbase a solid and give them a ton for free 10 years in without creating a new revenue stream first. You can't just look at one thing they don't charge for in a vacuum and say no other company should charge for that thing.

I'm not gonna sit here and say that CEOs/upper management don't take much more than their fair share from profits, or that lootboxes/gacha systems aren't predatory, because they do and they are. But this announcement isn't unexpected, it's business as usual, and it shouldn't be unexpected when the news of a new graphics engine hit that that didn't mean old updated models for free.

If this topic was actually just about consumer rights, I wouldn't be taking the stance I am here, but this topic was made because a dude doesn't understand the caveats that come with the news that the game's getting an engine update. If it was about the predatory practices, this topic shoulda been made back in June when the game came out.

Although, I will say that though I hate the concept of lootboxes, it kinda works out for me in this game, because a lot of devs that let you buy cosmetics directly will just immediately account-bind it (like PSO2 does with Fresh Finds too). So the lootbox->market pipeline lets me get the costumes I want without spending real money myself, and I'm mostly fine with letting whales foot the bill for me.

I don't understand why you're acting like you're losing your outfits in NGS... New stuff? Pay for it. You can wear your old shit all the same, the same way you payed for it. PSO2 is getting a graphical update anyways. Your old outfits won't have moving fingies and shit but it's not gonna be pixelated in the world of NGS either.

Calm down and stop begging for free shit. Nobody is entitled to anything. Maybe go make your own game and update your own engine... or something lmao.

@Akonyl actually I was under the wrong impression until yesterday because my base assumption is that models are just a basic part of the game. not something that's needlessly segregated. and that's when my personal hype for the game fell somewhat because it's just a dick move by the management

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures:

my base assumption is that models are just a basic part of the game

I think we're up to 77 scratch ticket sets at this point, so I'm honestly kind of stunned this could have ever been your impression.

@Miraglyth I meant to say I assumed engine upgrades were a base part if the game, including model upgrades of existing costumes. this is my expectation for any game that advertises an engine update. then they revealed that part if the engine update is pay walled which makes me less hype for the game.

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures:

I assumed engine upgrades were a base part if the game, including model upgrades of existing costumes.

Yeah that was abundantly clear from the first couple of posts. What most people in this topic have taken issue with is that they explained that to you very early on and you kept ignoring them all and drawing false comparisons with other games that never did an NGS style update.

There’s no old game like this that has taken on this level of graphical updates and painstakingly updated the models for all of their existing clothing for free, come on now. Every single outfit would have to be redone individually, they don’t just press a button and take your money.

Like I said, just buy the updated versions of your absolute favorite outfits and live with the rest.

They could have charged us for NGS period like an expansion like how GW2 does where basegame is free but everything else costs a one time fee. We’re getting a brand new game version completely free. and now you’re upset they don’t sweeten the deal with more free stuff.

The updated versions of our outfits are best to look at it a brand new outfit because of the extra work put into it.

i don't care too much about it honestly. you could see it as a lazy attempt to make some extra buck reusing old costumes, but here we are, doing the same since PSU, reusing PSO costumes, or PSO2 reusing PSU and PSO costumes while getting charged for it. it's a common thing in long running franchises to have reccuring designs, which were updated to fit the new game. for fans of a game series, this is a good way to show their love for that franchise. i too would love to see updated versions of the PSO costumes, i'm guilty in that case, but outside of that i'm looking forward to what kind of new costumes NGS will actually have to offer.i'm not too interested in getting updated versions of PSO2 costumes, they were close to the way PSO handled it's original class costumes anyways.

@Miraglyth said in monetizing costume textures:

League of Legends is the only one that has seen 10 years of work and support so far; the only texture update I can find mentioned is from 2014 so the game wasn't as old as PSO2 is now and this seemingly recent list suggests there are not many more than 1,166 skins today which is again a fraction of PSO2 even now, this number was probably more like 300-400 back in 2014 and again this was an actual texture update rather than the full re-modelling NGS is doing.

Poor example; League of Legends has revamped their champions, graphically and gameplay-wise, slowly over the years, and they do not re-sell you the updates once they are done.

I don't know the details, but if Sega is re-selling the updates as new outfits, that's pretty shitty, and I'm kinda shocked anyone is defending that. My assumption was that the updates would happen slowly over time (if at all), while they did NGS scratches to sell new NGS outfits, because nobody has that kind of unlimited manpower to do 77 scratches of content all at once and meet a game launch.

Sega had the option of releasing this as the whole new separate game that it apparently is. By piggybacking onto PSO2 and allowing transfer, they have created certain expectations. Among those expectations is that outfits they sold to us would carry over and we wouldn't have to buy them again.

It's also a shockingly bad decision for long-term business. The idea here, presumably, is for PSO2 to carry the downtime between New Genesis updates, but they are making all sorts of decisions to discourage people from playing and spending money on PSO2, when the two games could complement each other instead.

@shadonic-0 The difference here is that PSO2 and NGS are touted as the same game. PSU and PSO are not the same game as PSO2. Then you’re thinking “But PSO2 NGS isn’t the same game as PSO2” and you’d be right as they functionally aren’t the same game. So why do both use the same name? There’s no reason they should both be PSO2. But then you’d be thinking “Well it’s okay because my outfits and costumes can be brought over to NGS” and my counterpoint to that is the technology like that is already available where save data on PSO2 can already be read into another game. Literally the only benefit to having the game be accessible through PSO2 is to save you like 1 minute of your time. NGS shouldn’t have PSO2 in the name and should’ve been it’s own separate game.

@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

Poor example; League of Legends has revamped their champions, graphically and gameplay-wise, slowly over the years, and they do not re-sell you the updates once they are done.

It wasn't my example to begin with and it's poor because of the points you ignored about low volume and different monetisation model.

A listing of historical upates gives us a count of 100 updates that are at least partially categorised as "Visual" though 1 hasn't happened yet and 41 are sufficed "(VFX)" which appear to be things like spell effects only, leaving 58 graphical reworks of far less detailed models spread over 9½ years, most of which were likely aesthetic do-overs and all of which are for heroes of fixed size rather than completely new skeletons with wildly dynamic proportion options given to the player.

This is simply not comparable to asking for literally thousands of reworks of higher-detail content to not only be dropped all at once but created and tested for a wider range of use scenarios.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

I don't know the details, but if Sega is re-selling the updates as new outfits

The overwhelming majority of the several thousand PSO2 outfit pieces and CAST parts are not receiving updates at all. It's not a feasible amount of work. If you skim-read the title and thought it was just texture recompression or something that could be automated you really don't know the details and the best advice I can give is to read further so you do.


@_Flux_ said in monetizing costume textures:

My assumption was that the updates would happen slowly over time (if at all), while they did NGS scratches to sell new NGS outfits, because nobody has that kind of unlimited manpower to do 77 scratches of content all at once and meet a game launch.

This is closer to what's happening with reference to the "if at all" - because they aren't. They're basically leaving all old-model outfit pieces as they are and creating all-new pieces to support the new model types. It's just that some of those happen to look like the most iconic old-model outfits.

And it's only Global that has had 77 scratches' worth of cosmetic content. Japan has had way more than this over 8 years, some of which we have seen in Fresh Finds and Mission Pass but much of which Global has never seen. A hypothetical money-haemorrhaging free upgrade program would need to include all that for JP players, obviously.