monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations)

@Kuon said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Milk

You should know by now the dude is a troll. Don't feed it.

I don’t get troll vibes, more like very young vibes, possibly too young to have a job yet? I don’t know, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt here so maybe I’m just gullible? I was invested in the topic enough to look for examples for him but I didn’t find any, then I was open to civil discussion and for some reason that blindsided me. I don’t actually meet many trolls on the net. 😧

@Milk I get the vibes he's never had to deal with payroll, or mass layoffs due to budget cuts. He might have some small background in learning computer science, based on some of his posts, but in others he has a clear lacking in understanding how even meshes and textures work. The reason the old outfits won't work on the new bodies, besides the new skeleton and rigging, is the same reason seperate body mods in fallout aren't compatible. It's an entirely new model, with entirely new meshes and textures. They remade everything from the ground up, which is why the black outfi on Ash in that gif slide, shows the outfit sitting entirely different on the body's model which is why there is a major shift in the overall position of the armored parts, and also the lengths and positioning of the legs thighs. Then there's the overal smoothness of textures edges, both body and outfit. They simply aren't compatible with each other.

That's why I said a flagging system for the new outfits would be a good idea in my earlier post. But again, SEGA needs to keep cash flow in the game consistent to keep the game running, as it is a live service. Something OP simply doesn't understand, or more accurately doesn't want to, and refuses to understand.

@Anarchy-Marine said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Milk I get the vibes he's never had to deal with payroll, or mass layoffs due to budget cuts. He might have some small background in learning computer science, based on some of his posts, but in others he has a clear lacking in understanding how even meshes and textures work. The reason the old outfits won't work on the new bodies, besides the new skeleton and rigging, is the same reason seperate body mods in fallout aren't compatible. It's an entirely new model, with entirely new meshes and textures. They remade everything from the ground up, which is why the black outfi on Ash in that gif slide, shows the outfit sitting entirely different on the body's model which is why there is a major shift in the overall position of the armored parts, and also the lengths and positioning of the legs thighs. Then there's the overal smoothness of textures edges, both body and outfit. They simply aren't compatible with each other.

That's why I said a flagging system for the new outfits would be a good idea in my earlier post. But again, SEGA needs to keep cash flow in the game consistent to keep the game running, as it is a live service. Something OP simply doesn't understand, or more accurately doesn't want to, and refuses to understand.

Yeah there was this sense of entitlement but it almost felt misguided, like he just didn’t understand the magnitude of work he was asking for. A lot of replies severely downplayed the hours of labor this would take, as if the devs just hit a button and they’re just choosing not to become mean greedy corporation stuff. I don’t know, I just get the feeling it’s someone very young.

I don’t think the flagging system would fly unless it was something we paid for but it’s a good idea. I’m fine with the way things are going to be, I feel what they’re asking is fair because it mirrors real life purchasing expectations. I don’t get free upgrades without strings attached. I tried explaining that but there’s just this “standard” he has in his head despite neither of us even being able to find one game, let alone enough to be an “mmo standard”, it’s just absurd and comes across as naivety.

@Milk That's what I stated, account bound cosmetics, if there were a NGS model/variant, it would auto unlock for the player. Meaning you had to either have purchased a scratch, or would have had to buy it from the player vendors. This would remove the headache of making sure longstanding players in Japan also got theirs. That said, it likely won't happen, due to the fact SEGA is obviously looking to keep cash flow consistent. Something I understand completely. No companies that have ever existed will support a service if it doesn't bring profit, and when they start losing money supporting PSO2NGS, it will get shut down, as all live services inevitably do. One day everything we bought here will cease to exist, sooner or later, and that time frame will be determined by how well this game does financially.

@Anarchy-Marine

Sadly yes, nothing lasts forever in an online game. 😞 I think of it as consumable entertainment like going to a movie or restaurant. A business is a business, money keeps the lights on. I think that’s why I got so mad.

@Anarchy-Marine said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@Milk I get the vibes he's never had to deal with payroll, or mass layoffs due to budget cuts. He might have some small background in learning computer science, based on some of his posts, but in others he has a clear lacking in understanding how even meshes and textures work. The reason the old outfits won't work on the new bodies, besides the new skeleton and rigging, is the same reason seperate body mods in fallout aren't compatible. It's an entirely new model, with entirely new meshes and textures. They remade everything from the ground up, which is why the black outfi on Ash in that gif slide, shows the outfit sitting entirely different on the body's model which is why there is a major shift in the overall position of the armored parts, and also the lengths and positioning of the legs thighs. Then there's the overal smoothness of textures edges, both body and outfit. They simply aren't compatible with each other.

That's why I said a flagging system for the new outfits would be a good idea in my earlier post. But again, SEGA needs to keep cash flow in the game consistent to keep the game running, as it is a live service. Something OP simply doesn't understand, or more accurately doesn't want to, and refuses to understand.

i get that i dont understand everything about modeling. but different limb lengths dont require extra work. you can adjust your own character's skeleton in game and the outfit adjusts. and the fact that they likely made their own engine in house probably means the developers are doing 10 x the amount of work than if they licensed a third party engine. if they really want to be cheap about it they shouldnt "dress" a model but replace your characters body with the outfit and have limb length as parameters. at the end of the day, Sega is simply passing that bloated development cost onto the customer.

if they want to run a free to play live service, any competent management would license a premade engine. if you want to build your own engine from scratch, that's a luxury and a terrible development strategy if your free to play budget is as fragile as you say. also if they truly want to keep revenue consistent then they need to license developer tools, save money that way, and not alienate typical western markets

in short, theres no reason to charge for these upgrades since Sega is clearly overcomplicating their development process for it to even cost that them much in the first place. countless companies have provided similar free upgrades (animations and textures) and many games have more than 4 skeletons to worry about (male, female, NT male, NT female). when you guys complain about how much work it is it just sounds extremely whiny

we see this with fighting games where japanese companies refuse to license GGPO and opt to invent their own sub-standard version at a much higher development cost. this is not a new phenominon. so if a fighting game company came out and said hey "upgrading to ggpo is really expensive for us so we are going to charge you for the development cost" its like no you should have just done that from the beginning

@ENERSHA420 Any "competent" developer would know that if they can fully design and visualize the scope of what they want a proprietary engine will net better results in both the short term and the long term compared to having to license a third-party engine. I am not trying to "knock" on anyone who doesn't use Unreal or Unity but there are so many games nowadays made with those engines that I would rather see developers and studios create their own tools for how intrinsically different it is. Case in point, when I brought up Warframe that uses the "Evolution Engine" that Digital Extremes designed. I would imagine games like World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XIV don't go around touting their use of engines because that isn't essential to the player - but they most definitely are in-house and proprietary engines. Similarly, you can look at even Capcom (who I would often point at for their use of their own engines) when you look at Monster Hunter World still running on their MT Framework engine (created originally for the Xbox 360/PlayStation 3).

The biggest nitpick I have with you claiming that it shouldn't "take extra work" is the fact that Phantasy Star Online 2 was originally an extension of Phantasy Star Portable 2 Infinity which itself is an extension of Phantasy Star Universe. This progression of the series has resulted in very little "technical" leaps and has been huge bottlenecks for Sega not because they didn't put in the work but because a decade ago things like "moving fingers" or having tight action gameplay wasn't exactly a priority for the game. You can try to push them onto using a third party engine all you want but at the end of the day the outcome is always dependent on the developers and what goes within the scope of a project. What you are comparing is unfortunately pointing to both budget and time in relation to the experience and the goals of a project.

I do feel that Sega could easily take the Digital Extremes approach and revamp content when the time comes around for it but you do have to remember as well that for Digital Extremes this comes at the cost of "content" as many of the longer-staying players frequently complain about content droughts. I do not mind it either way as I enjoy the game but there was a year where instead of "content" being released or any events being done, Digital Extremes spent that time cleaning up the game, polishing it, and reworking parts that were dated. To expect Sega to do that is suicide when the Japanese version thrives off of consistent "content releases" in the form of AC Scratches cycling in and out. I don't count the global version as a part of this (at least not yet) because we have been playing catch-up the entire time and have yet to have faced any of our equipment/cosmetics being completely phased out like the Japanese version has done numerous times already. This is not me defending that these practices should be acceptable and tolerated but this is a pattern that the Japanese version of the game has had already (completely phasing out Old-Type weapons and locking future-grind progressions behind the New-Type weapons and "new" rare weapon drops that completely overshadowed most of the previous equipment, introducing twelve-star units that eventually would powercreep and completely negate and trivialize the older crafting mechanics even to the players who dedicated their time and resources in building the best they can of their equipment, and now we can see it in fashion where the "N" variants of clothing will be catered towards a new body-type and character creation system geared towards New Genesis).

You do have to remember that every company has their own methods and that at least to me having "standards" is what makes everything stale in the first place. I feel that with the direction that Phantasy Star Online 2 is going in you can always turn around and play something else if you wanted something with more "standard" practices. I would be curious on what you consider "standard" if you decide to point at current industry standards or if you yourself are aware and preach those in the working world as there are many developers and studios who do not.

Edit: Something I did remember but could not fully confirm was that at some point Phantasy Star Online 2 did have finger animations early on in the game but was eventually phased out due to hardware and technical limitations which was very quickly pinned to the PlayStation Vita version of the game. Ever since then finger animations are largely phased out but certain characters in Episodes 4-6 do have them. I always had imagined after hearing of that it was largely why the PlayStation Vita version was shut down (it was closed in August/September of 2020) because the game could not make such big graphical changes without dropping its lowest barrier-of-entry.

@VanillaLucia i do just want to point out that the games you listed with in house engines also come with a premium price tag. sega wants it both ways with a F2P model and an in house engine when they apparently cant afford it and have to resort to predatory sales tactics.

@ENERSHA420 Warframe is a free-to-play game that still uses a proprietary in-house engine.

@VanillaLucia however through excellent management they have avoided predatory practices, even reducing their revenue at times in favour of the user experience clearly demonstrating that you dont need to cheese money out of your audience to have a successful F2P game

@VanillaLucia also imagine if the new weapon types were only available through a premium scratch lol or imagine if the revamped NGS enemies looked the same as classic PSO2 unless you payed extra per enemy model

any way you slice it, its absurd and anti-consumer meanwhile their launcher has been broken since the launch of NA. it shows you their priorities that they just want a quick desperate buck

@ENERSHA420 Similarly on Phantasy Star Online 2's side, you have a much more "free" experience because unlike Warframe where you have to engage in the in-game trade to get slots for your equipment (or you pay up for Platinum).

The biggest point with the fashion you complain about is that in Phantasy Star Online 2 you almost always have access to an AC Scratch even after it is gone via the Player Shop. You can buy those costumes for meseta after other players buy them and if you happen to buy the AC Scratch items and no longer want them depending on how they work (such as costume sets and outerwear) you can always sell them on the Player Shops to make a very big profit.

Your complaint of Sega being greedy would make sense if this was on the level of companies like Nexon but if you have absolutely no investment in the default costumes for the new AC Scratches this issue is largely a non-issue in the grand scheme of Phantasy Star Online 2 due to how friendly the game is if you don't pay money. You can get just about everything at some point or another just by playing the game and I see it being no different when we start getting newer AC Scratches with "N" updates or scratches that completely omit the original body types. You insist on players having to "pay" to get something new in this game but I am curious as to why you would think Sega would go as far as to think you have to pay for new "enemy models" when that is far beyond the scope of the original discussion you were trying to have.

Lastly, if new weapons were available through a Premium Scratch I would personally hope it takes the Dragon's Dogma Online approach. In that game you can "pay" for stronger equipment but when you equip it at a lower level it is extremely overpowered for the early content. When you start approaching the "relevant" content that the equipment you paid for was meant to gear you towards it starts becoming less and less effective to the point where players were forced to grind out and build their weapons anyways.

@VanillaLucia i can tell you as a F2P player i simply cant re-buy the items i would want. some of these items are 40 mill meseta and i have to pay most of my meseta to have acceptable gear. my character is probably going to look like un-updated shit for a long time. i also play a cast so what if i can only afford the arms? are my arms going to be updated and the rest un-updated? this is BS

for casts its not just a costume, you have to buy 3 different parts, they just fucked over X% of their player base that chose the race the liked

no one who chose cast was thinking "hey they might make be rebuy my outfit in 3 different segments, maybe i should choose a different race"

casts are already screwed when they have to pay more meseta than everyone else for their outfit in general and now they doubled the grind requirement, yeah fuck that

@ENERSHA420 said in monetizing costume textures (and model rigging and finger animations):

@VanillaLucia also imagine if the new weapon types were only available through a premium scratch lol or imagine if the revamped NGS enemies looked the same as classic PSO2 unless you payed extra per enemy model

any way you slice it, its absurd and anti-consumer

No longer satisfied with attacking management for doing something only you are saying is bad, now you're blaming them for a "what if" scenario that they've never done and won't be doing with NGS?

The heck are you even trying to argue anymore, guy? 😕

@Miraglyth the point is that if they shouldnt put those other upgrades behind a pay/grind wall, then they probably shouldnt put new body type behind a pay/grind wall. obviously its not a pure 1:1 comparison

a lot of people here are conflating graphics upgrades with cosmetics. its not the same thing. its ok to charge for cosmetics under certain circumstances but charging basic graphic upgrades per model is idiotic at best

heres an example of warframe doing it right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiY0Dv5Pdu4