Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?

I suppose it's a combination of the gear progression and the dps/class focus remark.

This is supposed to be a loot game akin to the Diablo series, except it lacks the part of where you can do different builds or gear sets to change the style of play. Your main goal is to get the materials required for the gear and then spend countless hours trying to min/max it as the big end game. There's no loot to be had. No random drop that will make you excited. No harder difficulty = more reward scenarios to try and build towards.

And yes, the augment system is such a convoluted mess that I don't even want to look at it. I shouldn't have to read a 30 page guide to be able to affix something halfway properly. That's poor design.

Yeah, zig pretty much ruined the game. All the fun of hunting RNG weapons are over with now. Everything involves guaranteed badge/rocks/medals now.

@Rang-Dipkin said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

Everybody seeking damage limits the min/max design space and funnels endgame players into whatever content drops the current DPS king? Or maybe the focus on DPS isn't a problem and it's rather the decision to make new weapons mostly just stronger "stat sticks"?

Having a weapon that's "DPS King" by itself is not that much of an issue (although having multiple alternatives which get you to the same point by "altering your gameplay" would be ideal), the lack of meaningful uncompromised utility and the fact most of it is usually stuffed into whatever is the most recent content however is.

In PSO1 items that dropped in the first area of EP1 were still perfectly valid choices at the end of EP4 (and in some cases even BiS) which also includes non rare weapons. That's something completely unthinkable for PSO2, just imagine the outcry if people were trying to use Vita Twin Vulcans in UH TPD. Which lead to a situation were every area generally had some items worth going for. If PSO1s gear progression was structured like PSO2s then nothing exept for the content released in EP4 would be worth farming which would have been a serious step down.

In general for farm heavy RPGs (such as PSO2) horizontal gear progression is always going to be perfarible to vertical gear progression as it increases build diversity and keeps old content relevant.

Vertical gear progression only really makes sense for "the heros journey" in story driven games where you're not expected to constantly replay the content once you cleared it. It's sadly still used (mostly by asian developers) in order to force heavily cash shop based upgrade systems onto the player which drags down the quality of the game as a whole. PSO2 also falls into this category, now they toned back some of these elements but the damage is still done.

@Furious said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

I suppose it's a combination of the gear progression and the dps/class focus remark.

This is supposed to be a loot game akin to the Diablo series, except it lacks the part of where you can do different builds or gear sets to change the style of play. Your main goal is to get the materials required for the gear and then spend countless hours trying to min/max it as the big end game. There's no loot to be had. No random drop that will make you excited. No harder difficulty = more reward scenarios to try and build towards.

And yes, the augment system is such a convoluted mess that I don't even want to look at it. I shouldn't have to read a 30 page guide to be able to affix something halfway properly. That's poor design.

I mean you really don't have to make perfect augments for equips despite what some people might say. It's probably honestly much easier if you just try to get as many augment transfer passes as you can and just transfer augments from the gear they give out, or can be obtained easily enough and just shove them on a BiS equip.

Like the units they give you for completing certain story missions, and the novel weapons from the rising weapon badge 5 shop should be good enough to transfer. I mean most of your stats are from your class levels and the equips themselves anyway.

Zig does not have an SOP. Don't you like SOP instead of weapons?

Why would you do anything else than farm Zig mats? For fun perhaps.

Which is exactly why I haven't grinded any of that stuff, if I get it, I get it, not going to bust my ass for something that is the tip top for a month or so with our accelerated pace, additionally they give out the previous top tier stuff for free... then soon enough in a few months NGS will be out and even though we can bring our weapons over I expect our best weaponry to be mid tier at NGS' release version at best anyway, why bother sweating over it?

I'll say this though, I heavily dislike the Zig type of upgrades and I hope not to see much of it in NGS but I 100% expect it. Not a fan of the 387439473 currency model in games.

@Vashzaron said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

Why would you do anything else than farm Zig mats? For fun perhaps.

Issue is that you can only do content that much for the sheer sake of "fun" allone until it gets stale. In other games with a focus on horizontal character progression you get at least to have the fun of farming for and trying out new builds which is something PSO2 used to promote (at last to a minuscule degree) but generally tries to avoid. Scion classes (with the exception of one) can't even use the Gunblade properly because their main source of damage specifically excludes all sorts of all class weapons for no reason whatsoever.

@Furious said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

This is supposed to be a loot game akin to the Diablo series, except it lacks the part of where you can do different builds or gear sets to change the style of play. Your main goal is to get the materials required for the gear and then spend countless hours trying to min/max it as the big end game. There's no loot to be had. No random drop that will make you excited. No harder difficulty = more reward scenarios to try and build towards.

It's funny you bring up Diablo because the reason I started playing PSO2 was that I thought it'd scratch my Diablo 3 itch. And I agree that introducing more weapons or unit sets that interact with specific skill tree perks or PAs/techs would be a welcomed addition (in NGS) that could lead to more viable build diversity. Still remember changing my wizard gameplay to suit the Tal Rasha set because I loved the idea of just dropping meteors everywhere.

And I don't come from an MMO/player shop background, but I have to wonder if that's a big reason why we don't get more of the random drops that make things exciting. The existence of the player shop can justify the super low drop rate for awesome gear/affixes while giving a reason to repeat content even for casual players (i.e. if I don't get what I want my time isn't completely wasted because I can sell all those Deos and eventually buy that item I really want from the guy lucky enough to get it). And I imagine frustration with super low drop rates was part of the reason for introducing Zig who is a form of RNG protection...

Personally, I like the feeling of getting drops in the wild too and would prefer a system whereby your drop rate of a 15 star weapon or 13 star unit improved after every completion of endgame content instead of getting materials each time (with a reset specific to each set). And to address the harder content should equal more reward scenarios, they could employ a strategy from Destiny where you have an item (that potentially costs seasonal RWBs to charge) that curbs your RNG such as guaranteeing certain types of weapons to drop from the boss crystal (e.g. on EH you can guarantee you'll get Hero weapons and on UH you can limit this further to only swords for that run).

Oh, and @Ryoga, I don't have much to follow up with aside from saying that I agree with a lot of your points regarding where vertical progression makes the most sense (solo story games) and where horizontal progression feels superior (looter RPGs). It's also interesting to hear how PSO1 did things and how they were able to keep old content relevant while avoiding powercreep/complaints about not enough new stuff to chase because old stuff was still viable. Hopefully they're combining all their years of experience into making NGS the best of both worlds!

@Ryoga said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

@Vashzaron said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

Why would you do anything else than farm Zig mats? For fun perhaps.

Issue is that you can only do content that much for the sheer sake of "fun" allone until it gets stale. In other games with a focus on horizontal character progression you get at least to have the fun of farming for and trying out new builds which is something PSO2 used to promote (at last to a minuscule degree) but generally tries to avoid. Scion classes (with the exception of one) can't even use the Gunblade properly because their main source of damage specifically excludes all sorts of all class weapons for no reason whatsoever.

I don't disagree, I am heavily playing other games instead of PSO2 for a long time now. Mostly logging in and doing some Armada UQs since I enjoy those still, plus to get some money for cosmetics to bring to NGS. I used to regularly use several different characters all with at each set as a different main class of the game for fun in changing it up but I dont even do that anymore.

@Rang-Dipkin If you read some of the interviews from PSO devs they talk about how Diablo was basically the game type they were trying to mimic. Diablo was given to them to play so they understood what the intent was. If they added something equivalent to uniques/legendaries with specific effects it would definitely open up the possibilities. For now though it's a dungeon grinder without the part that makes a dungeon grinder fun.

@Andross said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

Yeah, zig pretty much ruined the game. All the fun of hunting RNG weapons are over with now. Everything involves guaranteed badge/rocks/medals now.

Incorrect. Zig makes things worlds better. He rewards players by giving them clear goal to work towards and reducing RNG tremendously. Being able to make progress towards the gear you want, slowly but surely is always far far better than hoping you win the jackpot multiple times.

If you thing that's bad then player shops should not exist nor any trading whatsoever. Because player shops let you find those affixes you want, for a price you can make progress towards slowly but surely.

@Sparhawk said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

@Andross said in Does Zig's shop make a large part of the game useless?:

Yeah, zig pretty much ruined the game. All the fun of hunting RNG weapons are over with now. Everything involves guaranteed badge/rocks/medals now.

Incorrect. Zig makes things worlds better. He rewards players by giving them clear goal to work towards and reducing RNG tremendously. Being able to make progress towards the gear you want, slowly but surely is always far far better than hoping you win the jackpot multiple times.

If you thing that's bad then player shops should not exist nor any trading whatsoever. Because player shops let you find those affixes you want, for a price you can make progress towards slowly but surely.

While I don't disagree with the clearly defined goal thought, having it be BiS is too much. If anything Zig should have strong 14* weapons and leave the 15* to RNG. You still have a good piece of gear to work towards which will hold you through almost if not all content, and it makes the 15* drop that much more rewarding for time spent farming it. Same with units.

I think the collection folder already covers that. I for one enjoy the grind, the nice thing about Zig is that it's reliable. I have played PSO1. It was amazing to see a red drop when it came. But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, all that matters is that the game is fun, and that you still have to work for acquiring the weapons. Never have I thought the random drops were what made PSO1, have it's charm. Guess what. It was the atmosphere, the enemies, the mechanics, the music, the sound, and the story that made PSO1 as great as it was. The RNG wasn't really what would come to me as 'this is why this game is great'.