Expert matchmaking,when?

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Just 13 star units + 10 alone would be good enough for me. I am very, very patient when it comes to people in my MPA because I know the only way to practice Ultra Hard is to be in Ultra Hard, but if they can't dodge, they should at least have the bulk to potentially survive the hits or you end up with my last Persona run where everyone, everrrrryone was out of moons by the Over the Universe phase.

Yeah it’s the units I most worry about. My last Persona run made me want to literally cry because it was taking so long and so many people were dead. My last Armada run we failed the DPS check and only two of us were still alive. I can count on one hand how many times my pug group has passed it so I had my finger on that moon! Units won’t help players dodge but man a safety net really helps. I don’t think I would have survived without my good units to be honest.

I think some of you are vastly overstating how much of an impact gear requirements would actually have (wost case they just take some "junk" 15* as a "key" to make the requirements and then switch back to their "Sigma Launcher" or [you name it]). Also, in regards to 13* units: the main difference between them and some of the 12* units are the SSA slots. Which are irrelevant if people don't use SSAs (many people don't even give their units a ring skill and there is also no guarantee that their "build" actually profits from the one they choose if they do) and not just any SSAs but those who are actually relevant to what they are playing which is something that can't practicably be enforced for multiple reasons.

To your first point, indeed; Gear requirements would need a means to prevent re-equipping mid-fight. Basically, if it's not on your palettes, then it's inaccessible. We already have a system set up to prevent class switching during a mission, so this is a pretty natural extension of that.

If 13 star units were required for Ultra Hard, people would naturally gravitate towards the easiest to get ones to start. I don't think people who don't know what they're doing are going to be bringing Rivalate or Sharp Silhouette when you can nab Novels and Schvelle near-immediately for far less effort. I don't think, as such, that people would bring the 13 stars that are defensively closer to the 12 stars. And trust me, that additional defense matters. From experience, Novel units can make FoPhs, one of the paper-flimsiest class combos in the game, survive heavily telegraphed hits on Ultra Hard. It's not gonna keep them from dying if they're really determined, but it's one hell of a safety net compared to a Phobos or something.

Otherwise, there realistically isn't a reason to hang onto 12 star units; the game does everything to ensure they're pretty much obsolete at this point. The players in your example would have to upgrade from units they may have spent a lot of effort on, and that is unfortunate, but such is typical of a game with a vertical gear progression.

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

To your first point, indeed; Gear requirements would need a means to prevent re-equipping mid-fight. Basically, if it's not on your palettes, then it's inaccessible. We already have a system set up to prevent class switching during a mission, so this is a pretty natural extension of that.

This wouldn't address the point I brought up, people could still just have a "key" 15* in their weapon palette and then proceed to use whatever they used before. Prohibiting people form using sub 15* weapons in UH would also not be a good option here as several of them are still used for utility.

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

It's not gonna keep them from dying if they're really determined, but it's one hell of a safety net compared to a Phobos or something.

Amongst the 13* units Novel is pretty much an outlier. Most 13* units are on par with, only slightly better or even worse than Phobos units in regards to their defensive properties (even the affix system can have a considerably bigger impact here with up to ≈200 def per unit) and while Novel might help here (to a rather questionable extent) I don't see this as the main reason as for why people "kiss the floor" (at least not in UH).

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

This wouldn't address the point I brought up, people could still just have a "key" 15* in their weapon palette and then proceed to use whatever they used before. Prohibiting people form using sub 15* weapons in UH would also not be a good option here as several of them are still used for utility.

I'm not sure I see how. Under my proposed setup, if they have like, a Sigma, in any of their weapon palettes, the gear requirement system should stop them from going in. And then their palettes are locked for the duration (to be clear, they can't change the weapons on them. They can still swap palettes).

That's why I said earlier that the requirements should be more lenient though; many 13 star harmonizers are still very viable on the top end. The same can't be said for many other weapon types though, where certain 13s are only viable in very specific circumstances and 14s are largely outclassed with a few exceptions. Being a vertical gear progression has done a lot for this already.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Amongst the 13* units Novel is pretty much an outlier. Most 13* units are on par with, only slightly better or even worse than Phobos units in regards to their defensive properties (even the affix system can have a considerably bigger impact here with up to ≈200 def per unit) and while Novel might help here (to a rather questionable extent) I don't see this as the main reason as for why people "kiss the floor" (at least not in UH).

Most of those are not trivial to get. Novel and Schvelle are. What's more likely for a newb trying to break into Ultra Hard? That they'll have Adversity Training: Photoner Assault on farm? Or that they have a bunch of RWB5's and Void Erebites lying around from doing Xtremely Hard UQs?

If we're not talking a newb, just someone who isn't that great at Ultra Hard, then that just isn't something that can be helped IMO. I've never been a fan of trying to gatekeep skill, but I don't mean that as an argument against implementing Expert Matching at this point. Far as I'm concerned, if Sega does it, they do it, and I just deal.

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I'm not sure I see how. Under my proposed setup, if they have like, a Sigma, in their palette, the gear requirement system should stop them from going in. And then their palettes are locked for the duration.

Not really, you just proposed a system where anyone would be fine as long as they bring "at least a 13 star weapon". You didn't say anything about players not being able to join if they have a low rarity weapon on their plate (which, like I said would lead to other issues). The plates being locked after you join a quest wouldn't do anything here. A player could just buy a cheap 13* gunblade, put it on the last slot of their plate and then continue to use whatever.

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

If we're not talking a newb, just someone who isn't that great at Ultra Hard, then that just isn't something that can be helped IMO.

And that's what I'm talking about, I don't think that the majority of players which constantly die in UH PuGs are new players. Nor do I think that gear requirements would impact those new players who are willing to learn as they would gravitate to those gear options anyway. Everyone else you would want to address with such a system would just take the cheapest path available which would be to buy cheap (usually unaffixed) Cleasis units and upgrade them to Schvelle meaning they would still be about as / only slightly less "undergeared" as they were before.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Not really, you just proposed a system where anyone would be fine as long as they bring "at least a 13 star weapon". You didn't say anything about players not being able to join if they have a low rarity weapon on their plate (which, like I said would lead to other issues). The plates being locked after you join a quest wouldn't do anything here. A player could just buy a cheap 13* gunblade, put it on the last slot of their plate and then continue to use whatever.

?? Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. If I'm wording myself really poorly here, then I apologize (Edit: I think I see how you did now, so I apologize for not explaining myself properly). So let me try to make my position clear: the system should make sure you have ONLY weapons that meet the reqs on your weapon palettes and then ensure you can't change them out once the mission is accepted.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

And that's what I'm talking about, I don't think that the majority of players which constantly die in UH PuGs are new players. Nor do I think that gear requirements would impact those new players who are willing to learn as they would gravitate to those gear options anyway. Everyone else you would want to address with such a system would just take the cheapest path available which would be to buy cheap (usually unaffixed) Cleasis units and upgrade them to Schvelle meaning they would still be about as / only slightly less "undergeared" as they were before.

As said above, the cheapest/easiest gear options have pretty good defense compared to 12, so I'm okay with that. The goal isn't to keep them out, it's to force a baseline so that it is harder for a pug to waste the MPA's time. You are right in that there are a lot of factors that aren't possible to control, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try for a few that are. Someone with an Atlas EX weapon and an unaffixed +10 Schvelle is at least in a better state for the fight than someone strolling in with 10 star units and a Sigma and that potentially makes things easier on everyone.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I'm not sure I see how. Under my proposed setup, if they have like, a Sigma, in their palette, the gear requirement system should stop them from going in. And then their palettes are locked for the duration.

Not really, you just proposed a system where anyone would be fine as long as they bring "at least a 13 star weapon". You didn't say anything about players not being able to join if they have a low rarity weapon on their plate (which, like I said would lead to other issues). The plates being locked after you join a quest wouldn't do anything here. A player could just buy a cheap 13* gunblade, put it on the last slot of their plate and then continue to use whatever.

@_Flux_ said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

If we're not talking a newb, just someone who isn't that great at Ultra Hard, then that just isn't something that can be helped IMO.

And that's what I'm talking about, I don't think that the majority of players which constantly die in UH PuGs are new players. Nor do I think that gear requirements would impact those new players who are willing to learn as they would gravitate to those gear options anyway. Everyone else you would want to address with such a system would just take the cheapest path available which would be to buy cheap (usually unaffixed) Cleasis units and upgrade them to Schvelle meaning they would still be about as / only slightly less "undergeared" as they were before.

Even the worst 15* weapon is far better than a Nox+2. Even a god tier Nox+35 rod cannot have attack power more than 1500, while the default, cheapest rod you could get from collection folder has an attack power of 2500+.

I don't mind them setting the bar very low, low enough to cover 95% or even more of the player base. However, having a low standard is still better having no standard at all.

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Even the worst 15* weapon is far better than a Nox+2. Even a god tier Nox+35 rod cannot have attack power more than 1500, while the default, cheapest rod you could get from collection folder has an attack power of 2500+.

Having better options available doesn't mean that people are end up using them, one could get a +0 Anacates Himmel from the badge exchanges to meet "the requirements" and then still proceed do use their "Sigma Launcher".

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I don't mind them setting the bar very low, low enough to cover 95% or even more of the player base. However, having a low standard is still better having no standard at all.

I'm not against you guys wanting to set a minimum standard for the gear one should have but like I said that wouldn't change the overall picture as much as some people here seem to hope. Increasing your def by "≈5-10%" is better than not to increase your def by "≈5-10%" but you would need way more than just "≈5-10%" to really make a difference here and sadly the game doesn't offer any meaningful defensive utility on endgame units either.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Even the worst 15* weapon is far better than a Nox+2. Even a god tier Nox+35 rod cannot have attack power more than 1500, while the default, cheapest rod you could get from collection folder has an attack power of 2500+.

Having better options available doesn't mean that people are end up using them, one could get a +0 Anacates Himmel from the badge exchanges to meet "the requirements" and then still proceed do use their "Sigma Launcher".

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I don't mind them setting the bar very low, low enough to cover 95% or even more of the player base. However, having a low standard is still better having no standard at all.

I'm not against you guys wanting to set a minimum standard for the gear one should have but like I said that wouldn't change the overall picture as much as some people here seem to hope. Increasing your def by "≈5-10%" is better than not to increase your def by "≈5-10%" but you would need way more than just "≈5-10%" to really make a difference here and sadly the game doesn't offer any meaningful defensive utility on endgame units either.

Letting them to cheese the system still make them put into some effort, it is better than having no requirements at all.

Will expert matching solve all the problems? Of course not. But you cannot say a system is bad or useless because it does not work 100% of the times.

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Even the worst 15* weapon is far better than a Nox+2. Even a god tier Nox+35 rod cannot have attack power more than 1500, while the default, cheapest rod you could get from collection folder has an attack power of 2500+.

Having better options available doesn't mean that people are end up using them, one could get a +0 Anacates Himmel from the badge exchanges to meet "the requirements" and then still proceed do use their "Sigma Launcher".

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I don't mind them setting the bar very low, low enough to cover 95% or even more of the player base. However, having a low standard is still better having no standard at all.

I'm not against you guys wanting to set a minimum standard for the gear one should have but like I said that wouldn't change the overall picture as much as some people here seem to hope. Increasing your def by "≈5-10%" is better than not to increase your def by "≈5-10%" but you would need way more than just "≈5-10%" to really make a difference here and sadly the game doesn't offer any meaningful defensive utility on endgame units either.

Letting them to cheese the system still make them put into some effort, it is better than having no requirements at all.

Will expert matching solve all the problems? Of course not. But you cannot say a system is bad or useless because it does not work 100% of the times.

What's your point here? You're just echoing parts of what I said in the post you quoted and I never said that putting up some minimum gear requirements would be a "bad" thing. I also never said that it's "useless", just that it would barely make a noticeable difference which is factually true.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Even the worst 15* weapon is far better than a Nox+2. Even a god tier Nox+35 rod cannot have attack power more than 1500, while the default, cheapest rod you could get from collection folder has an attack power of 2500+.

Having better options available doesn't mean that people are end up using them, one could get a +0 Anacates Himmel from the badge exchanges to meet "the requirements" and then still proceed do use their "Sigma Launcher".

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I don't mind them setting the bar very low, low enough to cover 95% or even more of the player base. However, having a low standard is still better having no standard at all.

I'm not against you guys wanting to set a minimum standard for the gear one should have but like I said that wouldn't change the overall picture as much as some people here seem to hope. Increasing your def by "≈5-10%" is better than not to increase your def by "≈5-10%" but you would need way more than just "≈5-10%" to really make a difference here and sadly the game doesn't offer any meaningful defensive utility on endgame units either.

Letting them to cheese the system still make them put into some effort, it is better than having no requirements at all.

Will expert matching solve all the problems? Of course not. But you cannot say a system is bad or useless because it does not work 100% of the times.

What's your point here? You're just echoing parts of what I said in the post you quoted and I never said that putting up some minimum gear requirements would be a "bad" thing.

Your logic is "because expert matching system is a system that can be cheesed, thus it is bad and useless", isn't it?

However, in order to be qualified, you need to get certain titles, which requires you to have a combination on certain skill plus equipment, mix and match. People going to harder contents with nox or sigma are very likely to fail those quests in the first place, so I do not understand your logic.

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Your logic is "because expert matching system is a system that can be cheesed, thus it is bad and useless", isn't it?

I was specifically talking about the "gear requirements" some people brought up here...

But if you want to know my "logic" in regards to the "expert matchmaking" then I already stated it earlier:

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

If they add expert matchmaking then I also want to see advanced matchmaking (with lower entry requirements) and master matchmaking (with higher entry requirements). If they added expert matchmaking with the initial goal that the top 20% doesn't have to deal with the rest of the playerbase then the average player saying that they don't want to deal with the bottom part of the playerbase would be just as valid of a concern to address.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Your logic is "because expert matching system is a system that can be cheesed, thus it is bad and useless", isn't it?

I was specifically talking about the "gear requirements" some people brought up here...

Gear requirement is only one of the factors to pass the expert matchmaking trails, people with more skills can make up with weaker gears at certain extent.

As long as you can get the job done fast enough, it does not matter how you do it, and that's why in JP you need to get S rank in certain quests (where time is a factor) in order to be qualified.

I have to agree in NA, the bar should be set lower, but it is still something that could actually benefit pubs more instead of hurting them. People with good gears are already in small groups, and usually the ones with good gears got picked, which actually end up hurting players with not as good gears yet with pro skills, since it is way easier to right click on a player and tell whether that player has good gear or not, than hunt for a skill player in a MPA.

Also for different tiers of expert match makings, I actually agree on that idea. Since expert match-making is already an opt-in system, and the leader decides whether to use it or not, I don't see a problem there.

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I have to agree in NA, the bar should be set lower

The bar for expert matchmaking in JP is already rather low for the current level cap and equipment that is easily obtainable (the collection files 15* weapons are enough), the required quests on JP are XH level quests after all.

At this point it doesn't matter much anyway, we're just a few months away from NGS, which is gonna have equipment/stats requirements for urgent quests.