Expert matchmaking,when?

@Milk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Could Phaleg be S ranked with this method?

yes

@HarmlessSyan said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Riesz people really over estimating Phaleg especially now with better gear and higher level. The story bonus quest Phaleg has about 3 million HP both first and second phase so about 6 mil HP total. The Phaleg in the extreme quest only have 1.5 mil hp for either phases so effectively only half of what is in the story. Plus in the extreme, healing is not nerfed though healing using resta or manual -mate will make you fail the stage order. You can use life leech to get around it and I don't think hunter automate trigger the stage order failure either.

Giving the HP into perspective, I'm currently challenging the new solo ultimate quest for EP6, even at depth level 1 - the boss has 66 million HP. I'm in the 80s and the boss's HP is approaching 200 million and you only have 15 minutes to burn it down.

I was actually talking about when the requirement used to be fighting that bonus fight with her at the end of EP4. Anyway though I'm definitely much better with a team so I can't really agree to soloing something like one of the hardest extreme quests being an accurate measure as to whether I should be allowed to do Expert matching or not. I can survive stuff, but usually the fact of how long I have to do so and the fact that in those quests you're the only target in a fairly small room is the issue.

Which ok the room isn't super huge but yet it still is bigger in the Urgent Quests for example. And again there's 7-11 other people depending on the quest, so I wouldn't have to worry about a boss attacking only me in any quest where Expert matching could even be used. Expert matching requirements are definitely tougher than what you actually would need to employ in quests with multiple other people.

I wish they would make a unique quest specifically designed to test the skills we actually need for expert matching. Like maybe some series of timed trials with teams of four that eventually join together with the rest of the 12 players, but if you die in that quest it immediately kicks you out completely from the quest (or if your team doesn't complete your objectives in time, it does so for your whole team, and adjusts the difficulty for the remaining players appropriately so they can still complete the rest).

Or heck they could also make multiple categories of special requirements for matchmaking. Having an intermediate matching in addition to expert so people can play with players that at least aren't complete leeches.

@Riesz said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@HarmlessSyan said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Riesz people really over estimating Phaleg especially now with better gear and higher level. The story bonus quest Phaleg has about 3 million HP both first and second phase so about 6 mil HP total. The Phaleg in the extreme quest only have 1.5 mil hp for either phases so effectively only half of what is in the story. Plus in the extreme, healing is not nerfed though healing using resta or manual -mate will make you fail the stage order. You can use life leech to get around it and I don't think hunter automate trigger the stage order failure either.

Giving the HP into perspective, I'm currently challenging the new solo ultimate quest for EP6, even at depth level 1 - the boss has 66 million HP. I'm in the 80s and the boss's HP is approaching 200 million and you only have 15 minutes to burn it down.

I was actually talking about when the requirement used to be fighting that bonus fight with her at the end of EP4. Anyway though I'm definitely much better with a team so I can't really agree to soloing something like one of the hardest extreme quests being an accurate measure as to whether I should be allowed to do Expert matching or not. I can survive stuff, but usually the fact of how long I have to do so and the fact that in those quests you're the only target in a fairly small room is the issue.

Which ok the room isn't super huge but yet it still is bigger in the Urgent Quests for example. And again there's 7-11 other people depending on the quest, so I wouldn't have to worry about a boss attacking only me in any quest where Expert matching could even be used. Expert matching requirements are definitely tougher than what you actually would need to employ in quests with multiple other people.

I wish they would make a unique quest specifically designed to test the skills we actually need for expert matching. Like maybe some series of timed trials with teams of four that eventually join together with the rest of the 12 players, but if you die in that quest it immediately kicks you out completely from the quest (or if your team doesn't complete your objectives in time, it does so for your whole team, and adjusts the difficulty for the remaining players appropriately so they can still complete the rest).

Or heck they could also make multiple categories of special requirements for matchmaking. Having an intermediate matching in addition to expert so people can play with players that at least aren't complete leeches.

Look at the 4 man version of the current expert matching XQ and when that counted towards the requirements. I can tell you it didn't end well with leeches getting a free carry to Expert matching and it is why the current requirements in JP are solo only since it prevents such a problem. I say we don't need the requirements since the playerbase is not as big as JP and all they will do is cause the people that hate being in regular matching to keep doing gear checking or even worse encourage the use of third party software that can be used to calculate DPS so they can flame that person if they pass the check without the checker of gear leaving cause you don't have a +35 8 slot Rivalate weapon or something of that kind. SEGA Please don't introduce these requirements since they will just get bypassed and cause division in the playerbase (Yes they work in the Japan server but in Global where we get threads asking if 3rd party tools for calculating damage if they are okay for use this is a really horrible idea)

@YagyuChan Uh... not sure what you're talking about, but clearly my idea was to create a new quest, and not use existing ones.

@Riesz Honestly what your describing already exists in the game and could be used come to think of it. Just set a high required score in Endless that actually requires 4 good players to achieve as an alternative title to unlock expert perhaps.

@Riesz said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@YagyuChan Uh... not sure what you're talking about, but clearly my idea was to create a new quest, and not use existing ones.

My point to you is that this was done before in the prior requirements that were before these ones in the Japan server. You had a lot of leechers and not geared players slip through the net since they could just leech and be carried by people that can take on those bosses easily without their help.

@TsundereMuse said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Riesz Honestly what your describing already exists in the game and could be used come to think of it. Just set a high required score in Endless that actually requires 4 good players to achieve as an alternative title to unlock expert perhaps.

While Endless Quests are great tests of skill, I don't think that multiplayer titles are still the way to go for this. The only kind of scores that absolutely require 4 players are the absolutely huge scores (200-300M+ in both Reco and Rondo), but this is far too strict for a matchmaking system as then there aren't enough "Experts" to be able to matchmake with.

So you'd have to do some sort of lower score, but doing the Forever or Eternal titles would be too tall of an ask, however the Forevers and Eternals can be carred by 1-2 good people who really know what they're doing, so you run into the situation again where people can be carried for the titles (although to be fair, you wouldn't be able to carry deadweight in multiplayer Endless, as people who aren't trying can seriously dock the score by doing orders incorrectly or dying).

Personally I've always thought that the solo "Endless Loner" title would be a good gateway into Expert, as it requires 1 lap of Edge of Recollection which can be done relatively easily provided you have geared yourself up to an "Expert" sort of level, and it teaches you all sorts of situations that you need to learn to deal with. That being said, the vast majority of players also still struggle with this, and many classes have an easier time than others. Techters and Summoners are disadvantaged in solo Endless for various reasons for example, especially Summoner, so is this too tall an order?

I think the kind of Expert people actually want will never materialise, as on both the JP and Global servers, there simply aren't enough players to make a true Expert mode, plus from talking with people who want Expert, they're also not as good as they think they are despite constantly shitting on PUGs.

I hate to say this, but we need some way to filter out obvious leechers.

I am not talking about people with slightly weaker gears. Even Fully upgraded Atlas Ex is fine to me. But people showing up in UH with +0 units and +2 Nox, why can they still get away from it? Or people with all class launcher, doing nothing but holding down LMB.. Why are they allowed to get loots in the first place since they are not really contributing to the teamfights?

@Cakewalk said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

I hate to say this, but we need some way to filter out obvious leechers.

I am not talking about people with slightly weaker gears. Even Fully upgraded Atlas Ex is fine to me. But people showing up in UH with +0 units and +2 Nox, why can they still get away from it? Or people with all class launcher, doing nothing but holding down LMB.. Why are they allowed to get loots in the first place since they are not really contributing to the teamfights?

While I agree here I believe expert matching is not that answer and a new answer should be sought after.

@Riesz said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@HarmlessSyan said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@Riesz people really over estimating Phaleg especially now with better gear and higher level. The story bonus quest Phaleg has about 3 million HP both first and second phase so about 6 mil HP total. The Phaleg in the extreme quest only have 1.5 mil hp for either phases so effectively only half of what is in the story. Plus in the extreme, healing is not nerfed though healing using resta or manual -mate will make you fail the stage order. You can use life leech to get around it and I don't think hunter automate trigger the stage order failure either.

Giving the HP into perspective, I'm currently challenging the new solo ultimate quest for EP6, even at depth level 1 - the boss has 66 million HP. I'm in the 80s and the boss's HP is approaching 200 million and you only have 15 minutes to burn it down.

I was actually talking about when the requirement used to be fighting that bonus fight with her at the end of EP4. Anyway though I'm definitely much better with a team so I can't really agree to soloing something like one of the hardest extreme quests being an accurate measure as to whether I should be allowed to do Expert matching or not. I can survive stuff, but usually the fact of how long I have to do so and the fact that in those quests you're the only target in a fairly small room is the issue.

Which ok the room isn't super huge but yet it still is bigger in the Urgent Quests for example. And again there's 7-11 other people depending on the quest, so I wouldn't have to worry about a boss attacking only me in any quest where Expert matching could even be used. Expert matching requirements are definitely tougher than what you actually would need to employ in quests with multiple other people.

I wish they would make a unique quest specifically designed to test the skills we actually need for expert matching. Like maybe some series of timed trials with teams of four that eventually join together with the rest of the 12 players, but if you die in that quest it immediately kicks you out completely from the quest (or if your team doesn't complete your objectives in time, it does so for your whole team, and adjusts the difficulty for the remaining players appropriately so they can still complete the rest).

Or heck they could also make multiple categories of special requirements for matchmaking. Having an intermediate matching in addition to expert so people can play with players that at least aren't complete leeches.

The reason why the quest is solo based and so unforgiving is because a player that is unable to beat it will hardly be able to perform at their character´s best in all situations and thus contribute, on average, a lot less than other players.

Surviving is great but the point is that you are meant to be doing massive amounts of DPS all the while surviving, non instead of or only when not needing to, survive.

When you are able to clear the quest with ease, there is no boss in the game that will give you any trouble when it comes to being glued 24/7 to it and doing your maximum damage no matter their movements or what situation you find yourself in, thus, you deserve to be in expert.

A lot of people in this game believe that they are "doing well" simply because they do not die in EQ but in truth they could never imagine just how little DPS they are doing compared to more skilled players using the right combination of builds, weapons, affixes and combos.

Do not get me wrong, being able to survive in UH without dieing once is great, it´s definitely a good step in the right direction and something deserving of praise and encouragement, but it is hardly the peak of your potential gameplay.

@IfrianMMO said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

A lot of people in this game believe that they are "doing well" simply because they do not die in EQ but in truth they could never imagine just how little DPS they are doing compared to more skilled players using the right combination of builds, weapons, affixes and combos.

Which is why having a comprehensive and personal DPS meter which also provides you with some more general informations (e.g. average DPS for the quest or boss in question / average DPS per class for the quest or boss in question) would be a good tool to have for self improvement. It would show your performance and where you stand in general without it having any of the negatives people usually fear when it comes to DPS meters. Right now there is no way for people to tell whether or not their performance is acceptable for the content in question, they might think that the content would be a breeze if only they could team up with 11 other versions of themselves but that's ultimately just speculation on their part.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@IfrianMMO said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

A lot of people in this game believe that they are "doing well" simply because they do not die in EQ but in truth they could never imagine just how little DPS they are doing compared to more skilled players using the right combination of builds, weapons, affixes and combos.

Which is why having a comprehensive and personal DPS meter which also provides you with some more general informations (e.g. average DPS for the quest or boss in question / average DPS per class for the quest or boss in question) would be a good tool to have for self improvement. It would show your performance and where you stand in general without it having any of the negatives people usually fear when it comes to DPS meters. Right now there is no way for people to tell whether or not their performance is acceptable for the content in question, they might think that the content would be a breeze if only they could team up with 11 other versions of themselves but that's ultimately just speculation on their part.

Such tools will cause toxicity and I am glad SEGA is working hard to prevent their use. Also glad to not see Expert requirements since it is another avenue of toxicity.

@YagyuChan said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Such tools will cause toxicity

Right now everyone can check everyone else's gear at any time and we also have the option to see the damage other players do which doesn't seem like much of a concern to you (at least not to the point where you would be vocal and persistent about removing these options) but a DPS meter where everyone would only be able to see their own and extremely generalized numbers would somehow cause "toxicity"? Could you elaborate as for why you think that would be the case or is this just some baseless assumption?

Also, I doubt that "SEGA is working hard to prevent their use" because as far as I am aware of no one even tried to create such a tool. At best you have people trying to create party / "MPA" DPS meter which is obviously not what I was talking about.

@Ryoga said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

@YagyuChan said in Expert matchmaking,when?:

Such tools will cause toxicity

Right now everyone can check everyone else's gear at any time and we also have the option to see the damage other players do which doesn't seem like much of a concern to you (at least not to the point where you would be vocal and persistent about removing these options) but a DPS meter where everyone would only be able to see their own and extremely generalized numbers would somehow cause "toxicity"? Could you elaborate as for why you think that would be the case or is this just some baseless assumption?

Also, I doubt that "SEGA is working hard to prevent their use" because as far as I am aware of no one even tried to create such a tool. At best you have people trying to create party / "MPA" DPS meter which is obviously not what I was talking about.

Well then I apologise if this is meant for yourself and not to see what others are doing but as for the MPA DPS meter you mention is what I take issue with since it promotes flaming people which is toxic behaviour. It is also what I meant by SEGA working so hard to keep it from being used by offering rockbear VR training and forbidding the use of such a tool in the TOS while banning people who were using it. Personally I wouldn’t use the tools you want but for only seeing what you do Idm.

I'm pretty sure there is no doubt that this will promote toxicity. No matter what you will always have that guy who just absolutely flames someone in area chat because they bottom parsed or something. While we hope that would never happen we cannot deny the fact that it would absolutely happen. To that I say click report "Obvious usage of parser" and leave him to be banned. Now this could obviously cause SEGA with a higher amount of reports due to a tool that they never allowed in their game in the first place, which I can agree if I was working at their helpdesk I would probably be pretty ticked off.

Best way to solve this would be for SEGA to put in their own DPS tracker for the player only so they have numbers to compare because beating Rockbear into oblivion just dosen't cut it. However this line of thinking is pretty much dead since I think all devotion is going into NGS and if they didn't come to this conclusion during the amount of years that it was around on JP it definitely is not happening now.

Regarding Expert though I honestly don't see a reason not to enable this feature. Encourage the player-base to be better at the game, when all the carries leave for Expert a lot of people are going to have a pretty big slap in the face by the content and realize they may have to just "get good." I guess SEGA fears that players will leave because of this rather than actually attempt the challenge. Are there that many people who run this game solo? That don't have friends that they can go to and ask for help with their class and gearing? Is this not the purpose of Alliances?

EDIT: It's hard to get better at the game if you don't realize you are bad in the first place.

If you don't want to support the experienced player-base at the very least incentivize the lesser experienced player-base.